Would silver cables beat UP-OCC copper?

@dave_72 RE:...

Would silver cables beat UP-OCC copper?

The answer is
- it depends on the silver wire you are using and
- the resolution of your system

For example - I have used Mundorf Solid Silver with 1% gold inside cotton sleeve in my IC’s and changed to Neotech UP-OCC copper because I found it offered superior dynamics, details and imaging. It was so good that I have not considered changing it

However - you can also get UP-OCC silver, which I believe many people prefer to UP-OCC copper for it’s improved resolution capabilities

This is where the resolution of your system may be a factor - if your components cannot resolve to the same level as UP-OCC Silver then you may hear very little improvement.

Personally, I am more on the budget conscious side of this hobby, so I stopped at the UP-OCC Copper because it was so good, but others have tried UP-OCC Silver and prefer it.

Connectors can make a significant difference - I’ve found KLE Innovations Absolute Harmony to be the best to date

Insulation is another factor - insulation with a low dielectric Constant for best clarity and details - e.g.

1. - bare wire inside a Teflon tube is exceptional
2. - bare wire inside Cotton is next
3. - VH Audio UP-OCC Copper or Silver with Airlok insulation is one of the best insulated wires I have used
4. - Neotech UP-OCC copper or silver with Teflon Insulation

And definitely solid wire (as opposed to stranded wire)

Unfortunately some of the above are not an option if you are buying ready made commercially available products.

That’s why I make my own :-)

Hope that helps - Steve

@audioquest4life - seems to make no sense, correct?

The short answer - any wire with insulation applied directly to it is worse than bare wire in Teflon tube

But the long answer - if interested...

In a capacitor the dielectric is applied directly to a plate or foil.

In order to get a consistent capacitance every part of the plate or foil must be in contact with the dielectric

So with an insulated wire the insulation is effectively the dielectric and applied to the entire surface area of that wire

• all insulations have a specific Dielectric Constant (Dk)
• Teflon is 2.2
• Foamed Teflon (i.e. AirLok) is 1.45
• Cotton is 1.3
• Air is 1.1
• Vacuum is the base measurement at 1.0

If you use a bare wire in a Teflon tube, where the inside diameter of the tube is larger than the diameter of the wire, there will be space (i.e. AIR) around the wire and because the tube does not collapse around the wire (like cotton does) the wire only ever touches the tube in one spot.

• so the "effective Dk" of Bare wire in Teflon tube is very close to 1.1
• that’s why I rated it #1

I first realized this when I read about and tried Dulund tinned copper in Cotton/oil

• but it made no sense it sounded better than many other great wires
  
• the wire is tinned copper and I was using silver plated copper, which should have performed better.
• then I learned about Dk - and even though the Dulund had a conductor that rated lower in conductance, the insulation provided better clarity
• I then tried Bare wire in a larger Teflon tube and the results were stunning

So why does the insulation impact sound - well, I have no real hard core evidence, just what my ears tell me about the sound.

Here’s my thoughts

• A capacitor is an electrical component that draws energy from a battery and stores the energy. Inside, the terminals connect to two metal plates separated by a non-conducting substance.
• the dialectic becomes "charged"
• When "activated", a capacitor releases electricity in a tiny fraction of a second.
  
• So a wire is "equivelent to" a single plate with a dielectric applied to it
• and as the "AC signal" passes through the wire...
• in the +ve polarity part of the signal, it will charge the insulation in one direction
• when the signal changes to the -ve polarity, it charges the charge held by the insulation in the opposite direction,
• BUT the stored energy in the insulation from the +ve cycle is released.
• This release of energy interferes with the signal in the wire and you get TINY DISTORTIONS !
• reducing the Dk of the insulation reduces the amount of charge held by the insulation and consequently distortion is reduced
• With distortion reduced, you get a clearer signal
• But remember there are two channels - so with the two signals having more clarity the overall image will become more spacious and have improved focused.

As I said - these are my thoughts based on what my ears tell me

• That and $5.-- will get you a fancy millennial coffee (I hope)

Apologies for the long post, but wires and insulations get very complicated :-)

Regards - Steve

@nonoise - thank you for that link - I just wished I had seen it when it was published. It would have save me a lot of time :-)

I guess my first learning experience WRT cables and the effects/impacts of capacitance was around 10 years ago - I purchased a NAIM amp and they state on their web site that speaker cables having high capacitance will damage their amps, due to oscillation.

But my thought process at that time was focused more on the capacitance between the two conductors - which is more akin to a capacitor and probably responsible for the change in tonality

It wasn’t until more recently that I applied some thought as to how the signal in the wire could be impacted by the insulation of that wire. Which proved to be more of an impact to clarity and details

This became very apparent once I had tried the same wire with different insulations in my Interconnects,

• where the ONLY thing that changed was the insulation of the signal wire.
• all wires were UP-OCC copper of the same gauge
• All other wires and connectors were unchanged

The results: as Dielectric Constant of the insulation decreased each time

• improvements in clarity and details were observed
• improvements in image size and precision were observed because the signals in both L & R channels were more accurately being reproduced, hence recreating the original "image".

This paragraph from the article sums up nicely the impact an insulation of a wire has on the signal...

Because this energy, once stored, is released back into the signal path out of phase with the incoming signal, either canceling incoming increments of signal or creating out-of-phase discharge artifacts, this is hugely important and is, in itself, proof that cables or any other capacitor in your system can make a difference to its sound.

Thanks again for the article - it's good to have "the Why's" confirmed

Cheers - Steve

@koestner - RE: What Percentage

I think a better question is - is it audible?

And the answer is - very audible !

On the signal wire only,  I moved from

• UP-OCC copper with Teflon
• UP-OCC Copper with Foamed Teflon
• UP-OCC coipper in cotton sleeve
• and finally Bare UP-OCC copper in an oversized Teflon tube

Each time there were noticeable improvement

The final variant excelled in details, clarity and imaging, so much that I could not believe what I was hearing from such a simple change

The biggest improvements being the imaging which was clearly audible.

Trusting my ears has always worked for me.

Regards - Steve

@nonoise - When you say jumpers - are you using the metal jumpers that come with the speaker?

If you are, then yes, the jumpers are the issue
- but rather the making a second set of cables try some quality jumpers like these ones on @grannyring 's system page - he loves them

grannyring's System - Virtual Systems (audiogon.com)

Also take a look at this thread - the Helix Speaker cables are exceptional

Regards - Steve