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In recent years, I have been able to participate in a variety of Cable Demonstrations and Comparisons for the use of Phono 5 Pin DIN >RCA Terminated IC's, Digital RCA Terminated IC's and Speaker Cables.
During two of the Three Comparison sessions there were additional attendees at the demonstration.
I will offer a bit of info on my recollections of the different occasions.
At the Phono Cable Demonstration there was approx' Eight Cables in the line up, all given a Three Track Demonstration in a Home System.
Two Silver Cables were available at a purchase price sitting close to the middle price of the range of Copper Cables, the other Silver was the most expensive of all Cables.
All attendees were most impressed with the Five Copper Cables over the Three Silver Cables, from recollection I was leaning towards a OCC Silver as a qualifier for a further investigation and potential use.
A Copper Cable was selected to be purchased by the systems owner.
A Copper Cable that was quite impressive to myself on this occasion,
had failed to make a similar impression in another system, after the recommendation was made for it.
The Digital IC's were a line up of four, Three produced in Copper and One produced in Silver.
The Silver was the most expensive, at close to a £ 1000.
In my system the Copper was the most attractive, in all cables used the Silver did not make a impression to compete with the Copper.
A Copper Foil was the choice of IC made.
At a Speaker Cable Demonstration a Large choice of Speaker Cables were available, from Owned to Loaned in for the Demonstrations and Selection Purposes.
The end assessment was that there were a Copper and a Silver as the Cable types to be selected as a Purchase.
Each of these stood out as having quite a noticeable separation in SQ over the other Cables when used on the persons Home System
When compared to each other there were similarities and differences, with a noticeable weight to the Bass from the Silver.
Two Attendees purchased the Silver and are very satisfied with their choice to use Silver, I have heard the Silver on follow up occasions in both Systems and fully agree with the choices made.
I use the Copper Cable that was the Cable being used as the Comparison Cable to the Silver Cable that was chosen.
As said above there are variables at the interfaces that are unique to a system, these will prove to be of importance when a cables performance is being assessed.
A performance of a Cable and how the inter relation of a Device and Cable are being perceived for delivering a satisfactory and preferred SQ, is not easy to describe within a thread, experiencing the Cable Builds with the system of choice is a important part of the process.
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@audioquest4life - seems to make no sense, correct? The short answer - any wire with insulation applied directly to it is worse than bare wire in Teflon tube But the long answer - if interested... In a capacitor the dielectric is applied directly to a plate or foil. In order to get a consistent capacitance every part of the plate or foil must be in contact with the dielectric So with an insulated wire the insulation is effectively the dielectric and applied to the entire surface area of that wire - all insulations have a specific Dielectric Constant (Dk)
- Teflon is 2.2
- Foamed Teflon (i.e. AirLok) is 1.45
- Cotton is 1.3
- Air is 1.1
- Vacuum is the base measurement at 1.0
If you use a bare wire in a Teflon tube, where the inside diameter of the tube is larger than the diameter of the wire, there will be space (i.e. AIR) around the wire and because the tube does not collapse around the wire (like cotton does) the wire only ever touches the tube in one spot. - so the "effective Dk" of Bare wire in Teflon tube is very close to 1.1
- that’s why I rated it #1
I first realized this when I read about and tried Dulund tinned copper in Cotton/oil - but it made no sense it sounded better than many other great wires
- the wire is tinned copper and I was using silver plated copper, which should have performed better.
- then I learned about Dk - and even though the Dulund had a conductor that rated lower in conductance, the insulation provided better clarity
- I then tried Bare wire in a larger Teflon tube and the results were stunning
So why does the insulation impact sound - well, I have no real hard core evidence, just what my ears tell me about the sound. Here’s my thoughts - A capacitor is an electrical component that draws energy from a battery and stores the energy. Inside, the terminals connect to two metal plates separated by a non-conducting substance.
- the dialectic becomes "charged"
- When "activated", a capacitor releases electricity in a tiny fraction of a second.
- So a wire is "equivelent to" a single plate with a dielectric applied to it
- and as the "AC signal" passes through the wire...
- in the +ve polarity part of the signal, it will charge the insulation in one direction
- when the signal changes to the -ve polarity, it charges the charge held by the insulation in the opposite direction,
- BUT the stored energy in the insulation from the +ve cycle is released.
- This release of energy interferes with the signal in the wire and you get TINY DISTORTIONS !
- reducing the Dk of the insulation reduces the amount of charge held by the insulation and consequently distortion is reduced
- With distortion reduced, you get a clearer signal
- But remember there are two channels - so with the two signals having more clarity the overall image will become more spacious and have improved focused.
As I said - these are my thoughts based on what my ears tell me - That and $5.-- will get you a fancy millennial coffee (I hope)
Apologies for the long post, but wires and insulations get very complicated :-) Regards - Steve |
@williewonka
Is 1 (bare wire with Teflon) better than 4 (Neotech UPP-OCC copper or silver with Teflon) insulation? Just seeing if you listed these randomly or ranked them from 1 being the best, and 4 being the least best. Thanks.
Audioquest4life |
@dave_72 RE:... Would silver cables beat UP-OCC copper? The answer is - it depends on the silver wire you are using and - the resolution of your system For example - I have used Mundorf Solid Silver with 1% gold inside cotton sleeve in my IC’s and changed to Neotech UP-OCC copper because I found it offered superior dynamics, details and imaging. It was so good that I have not considered changing it However - you can also get UP-OCC silver, which I believe many people prefer to UP-OCC copper for it’s improved resolution capabilities This is where the resolution of your system may be a factor - if your components cannot resolve to the same level as UP-OCC Silver then you may hear very little improvement. Personally, I am more on the budget conscious side of this hobby, so I stopped at the UP-OCC Copper because it was so good, but others have tried UP-OCC Silver and prefer it. Connectors can make a significant difference - I’ve found KLE Innovations Absolute Harmony to be the best to date Insulation is another factor - insulation with a low dielectric Constant for best clarity and details - e.g. - - bare wire inside a Teflon tube is exceptional
- - bare wire inside Cotton is next
- - VH Audio UP-OCC Copper or Silver with Airlok insulation is one of the best insulated wires I have used
- - Neotech UP-OCC copper or silver with Teflon Insulation
And definitely solid wire (as opposed to stranded wire) Unfortunately some of the above are not an option if you are buying ready made commercially available products. That’s why I make my own :-) Hope that helps - Steve |
I'll chime in here. Silver vs OCC Copper. is definitely a comparison, but more important is solid-core vs stranded wiring. Solid core designs have all been superior in my testing.
As far as Silver vs OCC, it really depends on system synergy. I used to run silver a lot a long time ago, but have since evolved away from silver. Silver would be good if you have an incredibly warm and textured system and you need an element to compensate for a system that is too slow/warm/mushy. However, there is a fine line where silver becomes a little too sterile. Too much silver and the upper mids will start to shout and the sound becomes artificial.
I just recently built and compared two AES/EBU digital cables. Both with same Neotech gold-plated XLR connectors, braided silver-plated copper shielding. One used 21awg OCC solid core silver, the other using 21awg OCC solid-core copper. The silver cable came out being extremely and extraordinarily clean sounding. However, after about 10-15 minutes of listening I came to the conclusion that it was just a very tiny bit sterile sounding in my system and did not have the texture and engagement that I wanted. The copper, on the other hand, was very warm and textured and engaging, but did not quite have the snap and attack in the upper mids/highs.
The OCC copper cable with Oyaide Focus 1 XLR connectors (rhodium plating over silver plating over phospher bronze) was a LOT snappier and cleaner sounding than the OCC copper with gold-plated XLR. However, the silver plating could be a little too bright edged in the highs on some systems.
So, it really depends.
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Yes, I have heard it all. Siver cables are about conductivity. We ARE NOT talking about silver plated cables! If your system is good, your cables designed well they will always sound better than copper! Why do people paymore for OCC cables? BETTER CONDUCTIVITY! Also silver has the advantage of not only being a better condutor than copper or gold, its oxidation is still highly conductive. Copper not so much. Connections. Conductivity will be better with equivalent design. I prefer silver soldered connections with silver or copper. I seal connections with liquid electrical tape on all. I seal mechanical connections as well. Oxidation is not your friend. It is all about the connections. What do you think? I have little experience with silver coated. So far ehhh...
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I use Connex brand solid silver IC cables from Parts Connexion with either eichman or Neutrik silver connectors.
Never wanted to change.
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One Thought, Stager Silver Solids Interconnects, superb! |
Thanks. I would agree with that. |
You've got to listen with your own system....every cable sounds different in different systems. |
Silver as much as I can through out , if you do decide don't forget to pay attention to chassis sockets , silver pin XLR and or silver RCA ,preferably WBT silver sockets, |
Ok, Jmcgrogan2 and Milpai, thanks for the info and recommendations. Much appreciated. :) |
Dave_72,
I sincerely feel you should try Paul's Clear Day Silver cables. I don't know where you live - but you will ONLY loose $8 (at the max) shipping back, if you live in the US. His cables are pure silver and in my system they made a HUGE difference. I am sorry I cannot stop myself using these CAPS and all that, but I am still amazed that cables can have such a huge difference.
At the same time reach out to a dealer in UP-OCC copper cables and ask for demo. Then compare the cables in your system. Keep the cable that you love. |
12-04-14: Dave_72
So, with that in mind, it sounds like I would prefer the silver, but I can't really say 100 percent.
That is why performing your own listening tests is so critical. No one else can really tell you which flavor you would prefer. Many will gladly tell you what works best for them, but in this hobby, what works for some, doesn't work for others. You pays your money, you takes your chances. |
My aim is to not "tame" the system by making it "warmer" sounding. I don't like rolled off highs and a bloated lower midrange. I like transparency and detail with tight and deep bass. I just thought I'd clear the air regarding that notion. So, with that in mind, it sounds like I would prefer the silver, but I can't really say 100 percent. |
Several OEMs and DIYers have shared that soft silver is important to avoid the etched or bright quality sometimes attributed to silver. Annealing may be more significant than diminishing returns of 5-7 nines purity.
The better factory sources offer fine silver across a range of hardnesses. "Dead soft" silver implies full annealing. I suppose one could repeat the annealing process for incremental benefits or to restore softness, since silver tends to harden as it is worked. For this reason it is advisable to avoid excessive bending and twisting of silver cables.
Cryo treatment has goals unrelated to softness. No contradiction doing both. |
"For me high purity soft annealed silver wins decisively, and the recent decline in commodity pricing eases the pain. Consider experimenting with short segments of copper and silver in series with your speaker cables. At the line level I've had excellent results with DIY ICs made with Parts Connexion's Connex/DH Labs BL-Ag balanced silver bulk cable.
Dgarretson (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
How did you anneal the cables? Also, it seems like it is very popular to cryo cables. What made you do just the opposite? |
To reduce the variables I compared short segments of 12 awg Neotech OCC copper to dead soft three-nines fine silver from Rio Grande as jumpers in Merlin VSM speakers. No spades, solder, or twist geometries to influence the evaluation.
For me high purity soft annealed silver wins decisively, and the recent decline in commodity pricing eases the pain. Consider experimenting with short segments of copper and silver in series with your speaker cables. At the line level I've had excellent results with DIY ICs made with Parts Connexion's Connex/DH Labs BL-Ag balanced silver bulk cable. |
I have experience with both manufactured and self-made high purity silver and OCC copper cables. I agree with Grannyring's thoughts on tone and with Plasmatech's comments on the subjectivity of "best." My favorite speaker and IC cables are made from solid core OCC copper. For power cords, I have had good luck with fine stranded OCC wire, unshielded for amps and shielded for digital source components. |
"Best" is and for the forseeable future will be a word with no universally agreed upon definition, especially in this opinion laden environment. That being said, silver can sound different, but silver can sound different than copper depending on awg size, configuration, solid versus stranded, shield vs. non shield, rca vs.XLR, type of XLR, type of RCA, resonance factors, capacitance, inductance, resistance, not to mention termination skill. To look just at silver vs copper is leaving too many variables off the table. PT |
You would do better with copper given your horn speakers and SS gear. If you can afford them look for Cardas "golden" somethings,for a nice mellow tone. This will start another argument I am sure. The OCC copper cables are very good as well. There are many many cable makers try to get an idea of what you want from cables. And Zd is right you shouldn't use cables to beat anything. |
If you get yourself some thick copper cables wrapped in a tough jacket, they can take a hell of a beating. Every bit as tough as silver. |
I have built gear and cables using both and one fact remains.....there is no answer to your question that is the final truth for all. It depends on your gear, musical tastes (type of music), sound preference, system synergy and on and on.....
I have found that if you're going to use silver, then go for solid core and go for as heavy of a guage as you can afford/find. The right silver, solid core, and thicker than 24 gauge can sound very good indeed.
Silver does sound different and has proven to be more resolving in each and every case I have used it. Great solid core copper is warmer sounding and more rounded if you will. This is also something I have witnessed time and time again. A mixture of the two throughout my system has yielded the best results. This has taken me several years and lots of experimenting however. The only way to learn for yourself is to try some. No other way I am afraid to say.
If you listen to mellow jazz and calm voice that is well recorded, then silver may be just the ticket. It may, but there are many other variables which folks have already stated. I have found that the recording quality plays a big role on which wire I prefer. Poor recordings suffer more on silver in my experience. If your musical tastes force you to listen to many mediocre to poor recordings, then copper may be a better choice for you. |
If you are inquiring from a scientific point of view, it really comes down to how conductive the material is all other things being equal. Silver is more conductive than copper, but if the AWG of the silver cable is less the copper cable is likely to have less resistance making it a better cable, again all other things being equal. |
Looking at your system page,I would stay with copper... |
Charles1dad said it best. Granted, all things are system dependent but having tried both copper and silver, I'm staying with silver.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Shouldn't be necessary but might. |
All things considered, the final, conclusive answer to your question of would silver cables beat UP-OCC copper?
It depends....on system synergy, personal taste, cable design, etc.
Now, let's move forward to final conclusions on the SS vs. tube debate, and wrap up the analog vs. digital debate as well. |
I agree with LAK. There is no definitive answer to your question. System dependent and also dependent on the preferences of the listener
Alan |
As stated already all silver and copper interconnects are not created equally.
On top of that it's all dependent upon your equipment and your listening preferences. Until you hear it for yourself in your own system you will never really know which one you prefer. |
per given unit there will be one that does and one that doesn't. |
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Having use both types in my system I chose solid core silver cables. subjective of course and opinions will vary among listeners. When high quality silver is implemented properly it sounds organic and beautiful. I find It has natural warmth, tonal body/harmonics yet is also very resolved and transparent. I haven't experienced the brightness,edge or glare that some attribute to silver. It is honest with a natural character.All silver cables aren't created equal, some are better executed than others(like any other product). |
They the silver cables might come in handy. When the moon turns full and the wolfs bane is in bloom. |
I am using solid core 100% silver cable for my turntable, cd player, music server USB, Sonos, DAC, speaker biwire, power cord and all XLR between My C2300 to MC601s.
Yes, I belived in silver cable, for less than $2K and will never look back. |
