Wifi vs ethernet revisited

I run a Netgear Mesh router.  My modem is connected to the Router with a short 1ft ethernet cable.  My computer (Mac Mini used as a music server),  and my streamer (Linn) are about 20ft from the router and are run wireless.  I have zero issues.

Well said @fastfreight!  In fact I auditioned the BW D4 series recently before the WWP and still preferred my old Nautilus 804 (certainly to the 804 D4 but also to the 803 D4). I’m envious that you have the old 802s, I remember them sounding beautiful.

Hey @debrajray , no need to explain your keeping the Nautilus 804's.  I still have a pair of N802's and a pair of N803's in my vacation home.  In my opinion, the Nautilus line were the smoothest B/W ever made.  And, at 30 years, with the exception of one midrange driver, they are still going strong.

@sns I’m not worried at all. Some awareness of it is good actually. Anyway I have my core topology now and can now take partial derivatives instead of total. The latter involves too much setup cost. 

@fastfreight Thanks for that video, don't poo poo the network!

Now I'm intrigued by the Dejitterit equipment, have to do my research on these products, will search the Audiophilestyle forum for threads on this. I'm really surprised the guys on youtube video are making claims these network products are affecting timbre, tonality, I've never heard any network device affect this, presentation, yes, presentation meaning timing, flow, this a clock thing.

@debrajray I wouldn't worry so much about confirmation bias, this a short term possibility, the long run proves out changes and their real value.

As the OP, thanks to all for teaching me so much. Here is a summary of where I am now. 

I have two systems: (1) Moon 791/Moon 761/Wilson Watt Puppies (50th anniversary), and an older (2) Auralic Vega G2.1/Moon761/B&W Nautilus 804. (The B&Ws might seem like a weak link but I’ve had them since 2002 and love them.)

My goal: separate the Wifi and audio LANS to the extent possible. I concede that this may not be the optimal strategy, but that’s what I tried out (cf @soix ​​@sns).

I used a TP-Link ER707-M2 as the baseline router. Rationale: I have a 2 gig connection and wanted to exploit their 2.5gb port for the Eero mesh. The TP-Link has no wifi though I would have disabled it anyway. I turned off all the Omada stuff. It is serving up IP addresses and that’s that.

(WiFi) Eero running in bridge mode from the 2.5 gb LAN port.

(Audio 1) I am using the SFP port on the router to feed a fiber optic cable using Finisar transceivers. This runs to an Etherregen (with a Farad LPS) and then into the Auralic.

(Audio 2) LAN ethernet out -> long run to another room ->Trendnet unmanaged switch -> fiber via Finisar again -> second Etherregen -> Moon 791.

(Roon core) LAN ethernet to Roon core (MacMini). 

These LANs are all flat with the same subnet and I have zero problem with Roon discovery -- my phone is on the Eero mesh and has no problem reaching out to the audio LANs.

The sound is amazing. (Of course, the WWPs are better than the B&Ws.)

I am sure that this setup can be improved but unless I swap out some serious core equipment (e.g., the B&Ws which I am kind of attached to), I do not believe it can be significantly improved. For instance, the Farad clearly and quite emphatically improved the SQ for my system ending at the B&Ws, but it seemed to have a negligible effect on the other system ending with the WWPs. I mention this only to say that while I surely suffer from some degree of confirmation bias, it is unlikely that all the perceived improvement can be laid at that particular door.

There is so much more that can be done. Some of it I will do, like a better power supply for the router. But I am pretty sure that (barring better core equipment) I am most of the way there. As always guys, your suggestions are most welcome and will be implemented when I next find the time...

Hi @soix thanks and +1.  I was thinking vodka, but yes!

@fastfreight  That was interesting and should be viewed by all the IT “experts” here who swear streamers, switches, etc. can’t make a difference because Word documents get transmitted flawlessly. 🙄  I think David Robinson nods off around 13:30 into the video and almost again at 16:30. 🤣  Maybe that’s rum or something in his cup. 

Here is great information on Switch X and Wifi X and how this wifi has less affect on sound:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4V8ZaVv9aoM

I think this explains things way better than my attempt.

@cleeds This is true, I started with a laptop. On the other hand, there is no end of streaming/network devices out there, some have found them to be helpful. Also, I presume those with more complex setups enjoy the entire process of experimenting with these devices, I find it fascinating and its provided continually improving sound quality.

sns

Streaming is so complex and crazy. 

Some people make it that way. But the fact is that streaming is r-e-a-l-l-y simple. That's why so many people are doing it.

Streaming is so complex and crazy. Sometimes more is less, other times less is more. We have so many devices to choose from to the point we're not close to determining some reference streaming network. Choosing hierarchy of dacs, streamers easy compared to the network.

@debrajray I use Cisco from Afterdark Audio because I havent got around to Finisar.

@sns I used to have those concerns and avoided wifi.  Then I spent some time with Auralic Aries G1, tried my best wired solution with daisy chained ERs and Gigafoils with 'Audiophile' ethernet cables  (although some shared power sources because I didn't have more LPSs, and didn't know better then).  Then tried wifi instead (WAP replaced all the ERs/ Gigafoils) and wifi was a bit better.  Then thought I'd use wifi direct to Devialet and was shocked it was at least as good ... and the G1 and its $4k power cord became redundant ... along with the ERs, Gigafoils, cables, until I started putting them upstream and began a new avenue of discovery, followed by refocus on separating power sources, and optimising cable sheilds and grounds which led to paring back again.  Still so much to try and so little time.  DC cables and seperate battery for each ethernet device is the next avenue.

@dbastin In quickly perusing your setup the only issue I see is the wifi RFI issue in both Mikrotik and Devialet. Now I can see heroic issues taken by manufacturers to shield other circuits and components within devices, don't know if that case with these devices. My other issue is with the wifi receivers themselves, this especially vs a cleaned up and optimized ethernet input in a streaming device. This what my server accomplishes via my JCAT NetXE card. In my early days of streaming I went through a series of three different diy modded Mac Minis, won't go through all the permutations, but at one point was doing wifi with the 1st mini, eventually one of the mods was going to hard wire input, another subsequent move was to remove wifi antenna and disconnect circuit board connection to wifi receiver. In direct comparison there was an incremental improvement I could detect even in this relatively low level streaming setup. Not saying the Mikrotik and Devialet may have superior RFI suppression in their components. My own conclusion is absolutely no wifi on 'clean' or audio side of home network.

I'd also add RFI is likely an issue for us even with a 'clean' network for audio streaming. Most of us live in a very rich RFI environment, what with all the radio frequency equipment used on a mass scale. Some years ago I had located a Linn Mimik cd player in this one particular place in my listening room where I was picking up an FM station through my stereo system, moved the player no more issues. Dimmer switches are another source easily heard.So point is while this extreme example think how much RFI is masked, we simply don't hear it as an FM radio station of whatever, I presume very few of us really fully hear the full potential of our systems due to environmental RFI. I don't doubt are physical health impacted to some degree as well, plenty of info out there on this. In any case there are reasonable steps we can take to minimize it's impact on our stereo system.

@dbastin yes, all very useful for me as I think about how to reconstruct my setup; thanks.

Quick question: you write that "ER Side A connects to the CX and via fibre to my Router - Mikrotik CRS 305." What are the transceivers you are using?

Hi folks

The topic caught my attention, and I'm glad it did and I read thru to the latest post.    There were many things I read I had a xomment in mind, but too many to remember, so this is more general.

Firstly, I use WiFi to connect to my Devialet Pro, which is my streamer and DAC (andamp). The roon core is Antipodes CX Oladra with a few enhancements.  I have concluded (so far) that the benefit is ...  not connecting another wire to the Devialet.  The wifi is a Mikrotik mAP lite, powered by usb battery.  It is a foot from the Devialet to ensure strong connection.  Nothing else uses that wifi.  It is connected to Etgerregen Side B via Shunyata Sigma.  Basically it 'floats' between the moat and wifi and AC.  There other tweaks to it.  This has evolved and far superior to when I first tried wifi for this connection years ago and someday I try plugging the Sigma into the Devialet.

ER Side A connects to the CX and via fibre to my Router - Mikrotik CRS 305, a little brother of the model used by Dejitterit Switch X.  I got that idea from Audiophile Style 'Optical Network' thread which highlights the benefits of the 10G spec (low jitter, perhaps why Chris chose it for SwitchX). The CRS 305 is obviously better than the Ubiquiti EdgeRouter X SFP it replaced - it was a straight swap.  The CRS 305 connects to the ONT (1G national broadband).  It also connects via fibre to a FMC > Cat 6a UTP > TP Link WAP to provide wifi which I use to control roon.

My network has no other traffic when I listen to music, except me browsing a bit online.

The ONT and CRS are on a separate AC circuit, AC isn't optimal, but I use ifi AC purifier as AC conditioning and ground treatment.  However the ER is on the dedicated audio room AC (JPS labs, Furutech AC, 20A breaker) and has its own conditiioner (Shunyata Sigma > Cyclops > Synergistic Research Atmosphere Level 3 > W4S LPS > Synergistic Research DC cable).

All network hardware is on Synergistic Research Tranquility PODs, and grounded to Synergistic Research Ground Block SE or passive block, mostly using Hi Def Ground cables.

In all this context, my wifi is doing very well.  It is not preventing me from hearing the benefit of every tweak, roon update and even increasing my ISP upload speed from 4 to 12mbps.

But I would recommend keeping a mesh wifi outside the direct route from ONT (or whatever you may have) and the audio gear.  Unfortunately it seems every bit of the network can be optimised to improve sound quality outcomes.  I have taken the route of optimising rather than adding more switches - I still have more that can be done.

I am intrigued by the SwtichX, it could be a router.  Synergistic Research Router functions as a 2nd router that separates the audio traffic/activity from the rest.  I gather uses a 1G Mikrotik Routerboard, however it's jitter might be lower than typical 10G due to all the 'treatment' it's wrapped in.  I think Network Acoustics Router is 10G.  On the topic of routers, a problem is firewall and other security is much easier with mainstream gear.  Maybe there a way to have one router in the direct route to audio that operates very simply, but with 'something' connected to it doing security outside that direct route.

I hope all this is thought provoking and useful in some way.

I have basic wifi and don't stream...but use it for my internet, you tube ,movies and really no problems...I have Optium .

@fastfreight Thought just occurred to me, you should try eliminating both switches and/or just the Dejitterat and simply daisy chain your whole house wifi to your Verizon modem which if I understand you correctly is also a router, wifi remains disabled in Verizon. You still have your clean side, your Roon remote/ipad will see the entire network including streamers, and you can experiment with no switches, one switch or keep the two switch setup.

@fastfreight On the clean side router which feeds my custom build server (use two computer setup, streamer is OpticalRendu, the custom build can also act as streamer with usb out, running Euphony operating system on custom build which allows bridged or unbridged modes with Roon) wifi is disabled, this router feeds the second whole house router  via ethernet cable in which wifi is enabled. The entire network within my house is seen by the clean side or first in line router, this allows the Roon remote to communicate with streamers.

As for clocking, few months ago purchased Denafrips Gaia as I wanted to investigate I2S implementation vs usb. Gaia uses OXCO clock with quality power supply for the clock, this vs Femto clocks on both my dacs, this on I2S within dacs which is standard pathway prior to analog conversion, usb clocks on usb boards is an entirely different thing. Note usb and i2s implementation can vary greatly between dacs, various quality clocks and the important power supplies for those clocks. My Musetec 006 has an extremely well implemented custom usb board, this superior to the Amamero board used in prior Musetec 005, my Laiv Harmony has a rather ordinary usb implementation. Anyway both dacs benefited greatly from using the Gaia clock vs internal I2S clock (usb board bypassed completely in this configuration). Difference with this is presentation now nearly indistinguishable from my very nice vinyl setup. Any and all semblance of a digital sound presentation was eliminated, music now flows pretty much exactly like my analog setup.

Some hurdles to overcome with streaming, one is extracting max resolution/transparency, this by paying extreme attention to noise on every single link in streaming chain. Good test for this is to have cd rips on either a streamer hard drive or well implemented NAS, compare exact same recordings, streams and rips should be indistinguishable, and streams in general should be fully immersive as rips.  Once you have this, presentation becomes the issue, clocking key to this, no excuse to have to put up with a digital sound signature. If one has vinyl setup easy to compare, otherwise aural memory and/or sense of relaxation or lack thereof will have to suffice. One other parameter of sound quality I've been able to control via streaming is tonal balance, this with usb and I2S cables, generally silver vs copper.

Hello @sns,  Always enjoy hearing from you!  Yes clock harmonization and redundancy is an issue.  It could easily be an argument for combined streamer / DAC where it would obviously be optimized.  Instead, great streamers tend to have upgraded clocking, which we then bypass with USB to get to our even better clock on our DAC or outboard clock.  With my Nadac C and D, USB is the way to go to use the MF clock.  With my Grimm MU1 I like AES into my Tambaqui.

With the clean network / wifi discussion, I think maybe it is the way my DeJitterit switch / modem walls off its clean network, but I can not see anything on this side from my main network, either on wifi or connected macbook.  I believe this is the way this is designed.  In your system, how do you create 'clean side'?

@fastfreight I don't get the need to have ipad on clean side of network. I  use Android tablet getting wifi from the dirty or daisy chained whole house router for my Roon remote, has no problem seeing my server/streamer on clean side.

I also find your differing experience in regard to switches to be par for the course, many differing views and experiences with audiophile switches. I can only say my experience with  a Renolabs switch was inferior to no switch, and I kept things on level playing field using same top quality power cord and Audioquest Vodka ethernet cable. With switch in chain excessive focused images, far too precise image outlines, I strive for more live music presentation in which images blend somewhat on a large sound stage. I've found I can manipulate sound staging/imaging quite easily with my streaming chain, this also with I2S or usb setups which are both optimized. I've theorized this mostly due to differences in implementation of clocks in these devices. Harmonizing all the clocks in streaming devices/chain can be a tricky  thing.

Good Morning @debrajray ,   I certainly concur that any wifi on the audio LAN can  create noise.  But the Clean Wifi (wifi on the clean network) is designed to have minimal impact by its designer Chris at DeJitterit.  Also, there are no other appliances on it to chat with except my one ipad, so minimal traffic.  I would refer you to DeJitterit to further cull this thought, Chris is great, brilliant and approachable if you are interested.   He helped me get it all set up.  I keep my ipad on this clean network, so there is not much switching back and forth.  Everything else in my home weather wired or not, is on the main LAN.

I think this is simpler that trying to get my Eero wifi to jump over to the clean network every time I want to play / search with Roon.

I also have some Sonos gear, bedroom, bathroom and soundbar, again all on the main network.

I think a lot of people forget how much traffic in a typical home is on their Lan, and it grows continuously.  TV's, Wireless speakers, thermostats, cameras, security, PHONES, and now even kitchen appliances, lighting and even more.

@fastfreight to go easy on the headache let’s temporarily forget about the mechanics of the audio path (the extra switches etc). I have some observations on this but forget that for now. The only thing I am saying is to completely separate the audio LAN from any wifi on that LAN, and just use the eero on a separate LAN. If I understand well you still have to switch from eero to the other WiFi when you need to control. Avoiding that would also be a bonus. Plus it’s “cleaner” no?

PS The tv can go with an unmanaged switch on the non-audio LAN or even on a third port from the main router. Anyway you have that already I think. 

@debrajray I am getting a headache!  I surely don't know.  but it seems to me that ANY additional traffic on the clean side is detrimental. Of course it is easy, say on my phone or laptop, to jump to cleanwifi to control my audio if my ipad is awol.

A Verizon compatible modem that can split out two LANs is interesting, but isn't that essentially what I have done?  Plus I do use wired outputs on the main non audio LAN to feed my TVs as well as the Eero units.

I certainly did not design my front end from the ground up, but implemented many improvements one at a time over years.  I read a good switch makes a big difference, tried it and found it to be true.  No skepticism from that point forward.  But I did find less expensive changes were harder to appreciate, including the Bonn 8 switch and the Ether Regen. Good power supplies for the modem and switches make a huge difference.

@fastfreight yes, the clean network is a great idea but I'm trying to understand if it can be cleaned some more :-) Imagine that you threw out the verizon router and go straight from the ONT to a router that can generate two LANs on the same subnet. One LAN then goes to your switch system -> audio (which we can discuss later) but all wifi is disabled. The other LAN goes to Eero. The idea is to have your remote (say a phone) on the Eero mesh but still to be able to discover your other LAN where Roon lives. Isn't that even cleaner?  

Hi @debrajray ,  

 if your baseline Verizon modem/router is generating two different LANs (for audio and non-audio) on the same subnet, can't you get Roon to discover across LANs and turn off the non-Eero wifi that you've mentioned? 

So it may not have this  all correct but here goes: 

The Verizon Modem is only generating one LAN.  But the audio only feed, exiting the Verizon modem, is cleaned first by the JCAT switch, then it enter the DeJitterit unit.  Here the DeJitterit creates another wired LAN, and outputs to its included wifi router to spin off a separate wifi network so that I have control over my 2 streamers on this clean network.  My Roon core lives on my Grimm MU1, and it can only be seen on the clean network.  If I search for my Roon Core while on my main LAN, it is not seen.

This 'clean network' really improved my sound.  Taiko does something very similar.

Thanks @fastfreight you can see my thoughts above (and those of others) which are generally in line with yours. One thing I did not follow: if your baseline Verizon modem/router is generating two different LANs (for audio and non-audio) on the same subnet, can't you get Roon to discover across LANs and turn off the non-Eero wifi that you've mentioned? Maybe I am misunderstanding something about your topology.

Hello OP and friends,  So interesting all the different ways to improve digital!  Good discussion.  I have gone to much effort to improve my digital front end.  Many have contributed ideas I have used:

Verizon Fios > Verizon Modem (with wifi disabled) Powered by Sean Jacobs LPS.

From this I run all ethernet feeds to non audio as well as Eero Pro 6 Mesh wifi (three units wired around house).  I also run short ethernet into JCAT M12 Gold Switch (also powered by Sean Jacobs LPS) this will feed only my two audio systems >

Short run into GTT DeJitterit Switch and Clean Modem.  So I have stacked two nice switches in line and found it further improves sound.  The DeJitterit Switch / Clean Modem creates  a separate 'CLEAN NETWORK' that only serves my audio systems.  From this 'Clean Side' I run a quality ethernet cable feed to each of my 2 streamers. I use no wall plate couplers, instead using JCAT ethernet couplers if needed.  I run my long cables through the wall plate to reduce couplings.

The GTT DeJitterit also comes with a 'Clean Wifi' Router, designed to be quiet and use minimal bandwidth, purely for Remote Roon or Streamer Access.

So I have eliminated all the other internet traffic from entering my clean music side of things. And thee is significant internet traffic on most of our homes!

Each and all of these things have enhanced my digital sound.  I have also demo'd the NA Tempus switch, and that is also nice.  But I owned the JCAT switch, which is very comparable, and then chose the GTT Dejitterit switch / clean modem as the best sound.

Also agree strongly with keeping all computer / wall warts etc away from audio and on different circuits.

Take care! 

@coltrane1 You must be time traveler, go back to your own time and forget about the whole thing they call digital, analog world much more understandable.

What is Ethernet, and how can I get it? I’ve never had it, and have no idea how to create Ethernet connections in my home. It’s a serious question. Thank you. 

I'm a Network Architect/Engineer by profession, The only thing I have hooked up to Ethernet in my home are the 2 Mesh routers I use for connecting my Mesh Satilites. There is no sonic difference streaming vs cable.  You could argue there is less noise over WiFi. My Mesh system is WiFi 7. I'm able to stream 8K content to my 8K TV with no buffering,  and if it can do that, the minimum bandwidth to stream Hi-Rez audio is not even a consideration. 

Enjoy the Music

On the wifi thing, neglected to mention rfi issue on receiving end. You have receiver and antenna creating noise and the wifi converter itself clearly inferior to a quality hard wire receiver/converter such as my JCAT NetCard XE. If streamer is receiving component can't image a worse place for high levels of RFI, and again you have the issue of contaminating other components in close proximity to the receiving component. 

One shouldn't minimize EMI/RFI interference effects on our audio systems. We have amazingly high levels of this riding throughout our environment, this why shielding of components is not taken lightly by many manufacturers. I have a quality tri axis EMF meter, get within a few feet of a wifi hotspot and you'll see massive amounts of RFI, the other area where I see higher levels on audio components is transformers, I see mu metal shielding around transformers in some of my components, they take it seriously. Hard drives in NAS or internal drives in streamers another one.

I should also add every single one of my streaming components powered by lps which is in turn plugged into my power conditioner fed by 20 amp 10 guage dedicated circuit. Switching power supplies contaminate your entire household AC, neighbors SMPS also contaminate the power grid. Also possibility of ground loops eliminated by having all equipment on same circuit, and all dedicated lines on same phase.

Wifi  grossly contaminates your router with RFI, noise is the enemy of maximizing streaming potential. Obviously its isolated, this not the issue. The issue is every link in the streaming chain needs to be optimized. Noise in streaming components obscures the signal to some extent meaning loss of resolution/transparency, you can't get back what you lost in an upstream component. Disabling the wifi on my router was of more benefit than adding the lps. Also, since my router situated very close to  audio system, strong RFI was no doubt contaminating cables and other components.

Also, be mindful that while each individual tweak may not  be that noticeable, the cumulative effect is assuming one's entire system is sufficiently resolving/transparent.

Coming off a Nighthawk router, to a couple of those cheap boxes to convert the signal from electric to optical and back to electric. To a Netgear Powerline. To the other Powerline in my music room and lastly to the streamer. I started with a 100’ Cat 8 cable and went to the Powerline for the most part I can’t hear a difference.

I think.

Not sure why everyone hates WiFi, when done properly, it works great, nothing isolates like not being physically connected. However for best speed, and uptime nothing beats a direct connection.

My streamer is about 40ft from my basestation 2 rooms away. Have run a cable, and done WiFi test back to back. On my system, there is no difference between them. My setup is using WiFi. I do have a higher end cable modem, that I purchased and setup. Found a spot where it will provide WiFi to my entire house and garage without any extenders or repeaters. 

Fiber is king! Fiber is almost always "best" But real fiber is expensive, like $300 is the start for a good cable without SPIFs. Fiber has 0 noise, 0 electrons, far less jitter (network jitter not timing jitter) and is basically isolation between devices. 

Anytime you add a mesh network, it will have some issues. Especially if 2 base stations are constantly doing a "hand off". Mesh needs to be setup correctly, with some overlap, but not too much where devices are constantly hunting between 2 or more base stations. 

Adding more equipment is always a bad idea! You want as FEW hops as possible between your modem and devices. Cat6 runs under 200ft do not need anything special. Long runs are the norm in any data center. 

The wall outlet plug in extenders are junk, don't use them. 

There is 0 need for LPS on any switch gear, unless the wall wart is plugged into your stereo system power. No data center has upgraded LPS, they all use what comes in the box. 

Somewhat surprised someone hasn't entered discussion claiming all this nonsense. So for any novice or disbeliever, streaming chain tweaks and the ability to discern them first requires a highly resolving audio system. Second prerequisite is both streamer and dac need be highly resolving, only then will one benefit from these sorts of tweaks, these are simply icing on the cake if you will. Proof of concept, streamed music files sound quality needn't be inferior to high quality vinyl or cd setups.

And so back to the subject at hand. @audioman58 I have no doubt my router will change over time, still waiting on audiophile router.

Another tweak I've found to be worthwhile is DC cable for the LPS. I was extremely skeptical in regards to this until reading  Uptone white paper and user experience with this. So having used pretty generic DC cables for years finally took the plunge and made diy cables for my JCAT NetCardXE and OpticalRendu, these using Mundorf Silver/Gold wire with Oyaide connectors. I was quite taken aback, impact on sq similar to what I hear with AC cables! Quality of LPS also important, use the best for most important components, haven't experimented with different lps on router, Uptone JS-2 for JCAT card and OR, this choke based rather than cap/resistor based power supply.

@sns will report back, yes will get an LPS.

Thanks @audioman58 but if you read the last few posts carefully you will see why the 8702 does not work for me. I need 2.5 gb ports and I have zero use for the wifi.

One thing is your router-modem combo shoud be shut down unplugged 1 x a weak l for the cache gets built up,, turn off unplug for one minute ,then turn back on a tech told me this it refreshes and empties the buffer giving it faster load times 

I highly recommend buying a much higher grade router setup 

I bought  a Motorola 8702 combo router- modem on Amazon it has wifi 5 but has  docsis 3.1 , most are older3.0, much bigger processor much faster and much larger buffer easy to setup this works the majority of companies , around $270.just call tech support they ask for a Mac #  within 10  minutes up and running ,for a clear wifi or streaming upgrade the rougher is 4 amp  buy a LPS  power supply Digital is not grounded small green computer  has a decent one $299 and a decent power cords nice upgrade ,the stock $5 wall wart just add more noise .

@debrajray Looks very nice, presume you'll be using LPS with this. Let us know your results.

@sns This is the one I am going to try: ASUS RT-AX86U Pro (AX5700). It has wifi alas which I will disable. 

I’ve tried the same and find that a good Ethernet cable (I use a 6A from Blue Jeans cable made to length) from the router or from an Eero pod works better than Wi-Fi.  The streamer is important too.  My Innuos Zen MK3 improved the sound when I upgraded from my Bluesound Node N130 as a streamer.  

@sns  Agreed, each additional switch adds an unneeded layer; so the router with SFP seemed like a good call. It is unclear to me what "audiophile SFP" would mean TBH, though I do agree that I liked some transceivers more than others.

I need the 2.5 because I have a 2gb symmetric internet connection that I actually use for moving large files (not audio). Or at least I would prefer to have this; "need" may be too strong a word.

@debrajray My thought along same line in a router, simplify the setup. Why do you need 2.5gb lan, you have super high speed internet provider? While I haven't checked lately, always on lookout for audiophile router.

My issue with SFP in router is I'm not aware of any audiophile SFP card for my custom server. Using JCAT Netcard XE in server so this mean fiber conversion post server which feeds the OpticalRendu streamer.

I've always considered adding a switch to be redundant/needless complexity for audio streaming, the audiophile switch I tried resulted in much poorer sound quality.

@troutstreamnm SQ is very good in all these setups (including yours), see my original post. We’re just trying to figure out what’s better, which is possibly a crazy exercise, but it’s fun.

On that note, @sns I’ve also tried different alternatives with fiber, including the Optical Module and Optical Rendu combo you mention. For me, a Netgear unmanaged switch with SFP worked just as well as the OM at the start of the fiber. No difference. At the other end, there was a significant positive difference (relative to the OM) when I used an Etherregen with fiber coming into the A-side and a very short ethernet cable to my streamer on the B-side. My transceivers are Finisar FTLF1318P3BTL. If I follow your advice on isolating the Eero mesh, I would like to get a router with SFP out and remove the existing Netgear switch so as to streamline the topology.

Here is the crazy thing though. I cannot find a router which (a) has no wifi, (b) has SFP, (c) has a 2.5gb port which I can use for the mesh and (d) can be run cool with a 12-15V DC power supply. The closest I can get is the MikroTik hEX S, but alas it doesn’t have a 2.5 gb LAN port.

@debrajray Like the idea of router with no wifi/SFP cage. My only issue is not all fiber conversion created equal, I've tried generic products, my Sonore OpticalModule and OpticalRendu superior transparency/resolution. The Sonore has optimized isolation/noise/internal power supplies vs generic, transcieivers only part of the equation.

@troutstreamnm Can't tell you the number of times thought I had maximized sq from digital sources only to find incremental changes brought about increased level. Situating modems close to audio systems virtually a freebee, increasing coax cable length, may need amplifier for super long runs. If not the diy type, service call from cable company may be required. Also, modems should run BroadCom chips, better than the Intel chips. And to get full potential from hard wire setups use high quality ethernet cable, I've been through the gamut here. Generally, I've found silver is superior for all digital cables.

I run an Ethernet cable from an eero mesh satellite directly to my streamer. Never had problems, great SQ on high resolution and very simple.  I was planning to get a hardwired Ethernet connection installed near my system, but have put that on hold for now. 

@sns yes, I did mean the hEX S, but only as an example. It's a good example though: no WiFi, and an SFP cage that will definitely take the Finisar transceivers I already have. I would use a separate LAN port to run to the Wifi mesh in bridge mode.

I misunderstood, thought the Mikrotik was a switch. I presume you meant HexS model, this has SFP cage for optical. The issue with optical is not all transceivers may work with your streamer, if the SFP in that removable no problem. Best transceiver I've experienced is Finisar 1475. Back to router, I haven't done in depth comparisons on sound quality, I just look for lowest latency and always use LPS to power.

@sns Yes yes I understand. But I don’t need a router with WiFi for this. I need a router without WiFi not a switch.