Wifi vs ethernet revisited

Thanks @sns   not to be nit picky but why the wireless? I (and probably you) would disable that anyway because of a separate mesh system. What about the MikroTik hES X instead? Ignore if this is getting too detailed. 

Well said @fastfreight!  In fact I auditioned the BW D4 series recently before the WWP and still preferred my old Nautilus 804 (certainly to the 804 D4 but also to the 803 D4). I’m envious that you have the old 802s, I remember them sounding beautiful.

@erik_squires thank you for your advice. I have a very long run of Ethernet cable to the switch followed by fiber etc as described earlier. I’m going to try option 4 as per @soix’s suggestion as well. Will leave it on for a few days — assuming the immediate sq is equivalent as I suspect it will be — and then take a call. (Though maybe it’s best to leave well enough alone as you suggest.)

@sns yes, obviously, and I agree. I do have that setup. The problem is that I have a second audio system at the other end of the apartment.

@erik_squires (and @fthompson251) please correct me if I misunderstood, but after each ethernet run to each of my two audio systems (one of them is over 40'), I have a short fiber-optic "moat" which gets reconverted to ethernet via etherregens before they enter the audio system; already noted in my original post. Would that not suffice against surges? (And point taken on the iFi.)

@sns let me take that back. In theory I could isolate both audio systems (plus Roon server) on one LAN port and run an Eero mesh in bridge mode on the other port, and keep them all on the same subnet. It does not solve the problem of a long ethernet run for one of the audio systems, but it separates the wifi completely, which is also worth trying. Thanks.

@sns would a Ubiquiti Dream Router be a good recommendation for a main router in your setup, or would you suggest something else. I guess there must be something simpler as I don't need the main router to have wifi. Thanks so much.

@sns Yes yes I understand. But I don’t need a router with WiFi for this. I need a router without WiFi not a switch.

@sns yes, I did mean the hEX S, but only as an example. It's a good example though: no WiFi, and an SFP cage that will definitely take the Finisar transceivers I already have. I would use a separate LAN port to run to the Wifi mesh in bridge mode.

@sns  Agreed, each additional switch adds an unneeded layer; so the router with SFP seemed like a good call. It is unclear to me what "audiophile SFP" would mean TBH, though I do agree that I liked some transceivers more than others.

I need the 2.5 because I have a 2gb symmetric internet connection that I actually use for moving large files (not audio). Or at least I would prefer to have this; "need" may be too strong a word.

@troutstreamnm SQ is very good in all these setups (including yours), see my original post. We’re just trying to figure out what’s better, which is possibly a crazy exercise, but it’s fun.

On that note, @sns I’ve also tried different alternatives with fiber, including the Optical Module and Optical Rendu combo you mention. For me, a Netgear unmanaged switch with SFP worked just as well as the OM at the start of the fiber. No difference. At the other end, there was a significant positive difference (relative to the OM) when I used an Etherregen with fiber coming into the A-side and a very short ethernet cable to my streamer on the B-side. My transceivers are Finisar FTLF1318P3BTL. If I follow your advice on isolating the Eero mesh, I would like to get a router with SFP out and remove the existing Netgear switch so as to streamline the topology.

Here is the crazy thing though. I cannot find a router which (a) has no wifi, (b) has SFP, (c) has a 2.5gb port which I can use for the mesh and (d) can be run cool with a 12-15V DC power supply. The closest I can get is the MikroTik hEX S, but alas it doesn’t have a 2.5 gb LAN port.

@sns This is the one I am going to try: ASUS RT-AX86U Pro (AX5700). It has wifi alas which I will disable. 

@sns will report back, yes will get an LPS.

Thanks @audioman58 but if you read the last few posts carefully you will see why the 8702 does not work for me. I need 2.5 gb ports and I have zero use for the wifi.

@fastfreight yes, the clean network is a great idea but I'm trying to understand if it can be cleaned some more :-) Imagine that you threw out the verizon router and go straight from the ONT to a router that can generate two LANs on the same subnet. One LAN then goes to your switch system -> audio (which we can discuss later) but all wifi is disabled. The other LAN goes to Eero. The idea is to have your remote (say a phone) on the Eero mesh but still to be able to discover your other LAN where Roon lives. Isn't that even cleaner?  

Thanks @fastfreight you can see my thoughts above (and those of others) which are generally in line with yours. One thing I did not follow: if your baseline Verizon modem/router is generating two different LANs (for audio and non-audio) on the same subnet, can't you get Roon to discover across LANs and turn off the non-Eero wifi that you've mentioned? Maybe I am misunderstanding something about your topology.

@fastfreight to go easy on the headache let’s temporarily forget about the mechanics of the audio path (the extra switches etc). I have some observations on this but forget that for now. The only thing I am saying is to completely separate the audio LAN from any wifi on that LAN, and just use the eero on a separate LAN. If I understand well you still have to switch from eero to the other WiFi when you need to control. Avoiding that would also be a bonus. Plus it’s “cleaner” no?

PS The tv can go with an unmanaged switch on the non-audio LAN or even on a third port from the main router. Anyway you have that already I think. 

@dbastin yes, all very useful for me as I think about how to reconstruct my setup; thanks.

Quick question: you write that "ER Side A connects to the CX and via fibre to my Router - Mikrotik CRS 305." What are the transceivers you are using?

@sns I’m not worried at all. Some awareness of it is good actually. Anyway I have my core topology now and can now take partial derivatives instead of total. The latter involves too much setup cost. 

As the OP, thanks to all for teaching me so much. Here is a summary of where I am now. 

I have two systems: (1) Moon 791/Moon 761/Wilson Watt Puppies (50th anniversary), and an older (2) Auralic Vega G2.1/Moon761/B&W Nautilus 804. (The B&Ws might seem like a weak link but I’ve had them since 2002 and love them.)

My goal: separate the Wifi and audio LANS to the extent possible. I concede that this may not be the optimal strategy, but that’s what I tried out (cf @soix ​​@sns).

I used a TP-Link ER707-M2 as the baseline router. Rationale: I have a 2 gig connection and wanted to exploit their 2.5gb port for the Eero mesh. The TP-Link has no wifi though I would have disabled it anyway. I turned off all the Omada stuff. It is serving up IP addresses and that’s that.

(WiFi) Eero running in bridge mode from the 2.5 gb LAN port.

(Audio 1) I am using the SFP port on the router to feed a fiber optic cable using Finisar transceivers. This runs to an Etherregen (with a Farad LPS) and then into the Auralic.

(Audio 2) LAN ethernet out -> long run to another room ->Trendnet unmanaged switch -> fiber via Finisar again -> second Etherregen -> Moon 791.

(Roon core) LAN ethernet to Roon core (MacMini). 

These LANs are all flat with the same subnet and I have zero problem with Roon discovery -- my phone is on the Eero mesh and has no problem reaching out to the audio LANs.

The sound is amazing. (Of course, the WWPs are better than the B&Ws.)

I am sure that this setup can be improved but unless I swap out some serious core equipment (e.g., the B&Ws which I am kind of attached to), I do not believe it can be significantly improved. For instance, the Farad clearly and quite emphatically improved the SQ for my system ending at the B&Ws, but it seemed to have a negligible effect on the other system ending with the WWPs. I mention this only to say that while I surely suffer from some degree of confirmation bias, it is unlikely that all the perceived improvement can be laid at that particular door.

There is so much more that can be done. Some of it I will do, like a better power supply for the router. But I am pretty sure that (barring better core equipment) I am most of the way there. As always guys, your suggestions are most welcome and will be implemented when I next find the time...