Wifi vs ethernet revisited

I use Netgear XR1000, I went with this for speed, 1GB cable service, provider servers very close to me so very fast ping times. I'm familiar with Netgear software reason I went with them, just look for speed, you want low latency with entire network, optimize speed and isolation and you're gold.

Don't understand why others don't try this. Run your ethernet provider output next to your audio system (modem next to your stack). Short run of high quality ethernet cable to gaming router, disable wifi in this router (for audio system only), run long ethernet cable to second router, this now serves as wifi router for rest of house. From router ethernet to network optimizer (in my case JCAT NetCard XE, and then fiber conversion via your choice of converters (I use Sonore). Every single piece on audio system LPS and power conditioner.

Running wifi on audio system network adds noise, switching power supplies same, I've found cheaper ethernet cable inferior to higher quality, ie higher resolution/transparency with better cable ( short length of high quality ethernet out of modem much preferable to the long length cheaper cable most running from remote modem). Keep all cabling short as possible, all quality cabling, no switching power supply, optimizing every single component in streaming setup has to be considered. In my case no switch, I've tried audiophile switch, vs optimized audio system only router, adding switch inferior, adds needless complexity.

You need IP address for the daisy chained router being used for whole house wifi, switch doesn't provide this. Only managed switch can assign IP addresses.

I misunderstood, thought the Mikrotik was a switch. I presume you meant HexS model, this has SFP cage for optical. The issue with optical is not all transceivers may work with your streamer, if the SFP in that removable no problem. Best transceiver I've experienced is Finisar 1475. Back to router, I haven't done in depth comparisons on sound quality, I just look for lowest latency and always use LPS to power.

@debrajray Like the idea of router with no wifi/SFP cage. My only issue is not all fiber conversion created equal, I've tried generic products, my Sonore OpticalModule and OpticalRendu superior transparency/resolution. The Sonore has optimized isolation/noise/internal power supplies vs generic, transcieivers only part of the equation.

@troutstreamnm Can't tell you the number of times thought I had maximized sq from digital sources only to find incremental changes brought about increased level. Situating modems close to audio systems virtually a freebee, increasing coax cable length, may need amplifier for super long runs. If not the diy type, service call from cable company may be required. Also, modems should run BroadCom chips, better than the Intel chips. And to get full potential from hard wire setups use high quality ethernet cable, I've been through the gamut here. Generally, I've found silver is superior for all digital cables.

@debrajray My thought along same line in a router, simplify the setup. Why do you need 2.5gb lan, you have super high speed internet provider? While I haven't checked lately, always on lookout for audiophile router.

My issue with SFP in router is I'm not aware of any audiophile SFP card for my custom server. Using JCAT Netcard XE in server so this mean fiber conversion post server which feeds the OpticalRendu streamer.

I've always considered adding a switch to be redundant/needless complexity for audio streaming, the audiophile switch I tried resulted in much poorer sound quality.

@debrajray Looks very nice, presume you'll be using LPS with this. Let us know your results.

Somewhat surprised someone hasn't entered discussion claiming all this nonsense. So for any novice or disbeliever, streaming chain tweaks and the ability to discern them first requires a highly resolving audio system. Second prerequisite is both streamer and dac need be highly resolving, only then will one benefit from these sorts of tweaks, these are simply icing on the cake if you will. Proof of concept, streamed music files sound quality needn't be inferior to high quality vinyl or cd setups.

And so back to the subject at hand. @audioman58 I have no doubt my router will change over time, still waiting on audiophile router.

Another tweak I've found to be worthwhile is DC cable for the LPS. I was extremely skeptical in regards to this until reading  Uptone white paper and user experience with this. So having used pretty generic DC cables for years finally took the plunge and made diy cables for my JCAT NetCardXE and OpticalRendu, these using Mundorf Silver/Gold wire with Oyaide connectors. I was quite taken aback, impact on sq similar to what I hear with AC cables! Quality of LPS also important, use the best for most important components, haven't experimented with different lps on router, Uptone JS-2 for JCAT card and OR, this choke based rather than cap/resistor based power supply.

Wifi  grossly contaminates your router with RFI, noise is the enemy of maximizing streaming potential. Obviously its isolated, this not the issue. The issue is every link in the streaming chain needs to be optimized. Noise in streaming components obscures the signal to some extent meaning loss of resolution/transparency, you can't get back what you lost in an upstream component. Disabling the wifi on my router was of more benefit than adding the lps. Also, since my router situated very close to  audio system, strong RFI was no doubt contaminating cables and other components.

Also, be mindful that while each individual tweak may not  be that noticeable, the cumulative effect is assuming one's entire system is sufficiently resolving/transparent.

I should also add every single one of my streaming components powered by lps which is in turn plugged into my power conditioner fed by 20 amp 10 guage dedicated circuit. Switching power supplies contaminate your entire household AC, neighbors SMPS also contaminate the power grid. Also possibility of ground loops eliminated by having all equipment on same circuit, and all dedicated lines on same phase.

On the wifi thing, neglected to mention rfi issue on receiving end. You have receiver and antenna creating noise and the wifi converter itself clearly inferior to a quality hard wire receiver/converter such as my JCAT NetCard XE. If streamer is receiving component can't image a worse place for high levels of RFI, and again you have the issue of contaminating other components in close proximity to the receiving component. 

One shouldn't minimize EMI/RFI interference effects on our audio systems. We have amazingly high levels of this riding throughout our environment, this why shielding of components is not taken lightly by many manufacturers. I have a quality tri axis EMF meter, get within a few feet of a wifi hotspot and you'll see massive amounts of RFI, the other area where I see higher levels on audio components is transformers, I see mu metal shielding around transformers in some of my components, they take it seriously. Hard drives in NAS or internal drives in streamers another one.

@coltrane1 You must be time traveler, go back to your own time and forget about the whole thing they call digital, analog world much more understandable.

@fastfreight I don't get the need to have ipad on clean side of network. I  use Android tablet getting wifi from the dirty or daisy chained whole house router for my Roon remote, has no problem seeing my server/streamer on clean side.

I also find your differing experience in regard to switches to be par for the course, many differing views and experiences with audiophile switches. I can only say my experience with  a Renolabs switch was inferior to no switch, and I kept things on level playing field using same top quality power cord and Audioquest Vodka ethernet cable. With switch in chain excessive focused images, far too precise image outlines, I strive for more live music presentation in which images blend somewhat on a large sound stage. I've found I can manipulate sound staging/imaging quite easily with my streaming chain, this also with I2S or usb setups which are both optimized. I've theorized this mostly due to differences in implementation of clocks in these devices. Harmonizing all the clocks in streaming devices/chain can be a tricky  thing.

@fastfreight On the clean side router which feeds my custom build server (use two computer setup, streamer is OpticalRendu, the custom build can also act as streamer with usb out, running Euphony operating system on custom build which allows bridged or unbridged modes with Roon) wifi is disabled, this router feeds the second whole house router  via ethernet cable in which wifi is enabled. The entire network within my house is seen by the clean side or first in line router, this allows the Roon remote to communicate with streamers.

As for clocking, few months ago purchased Denafrips Gaia as I wanted to investigate I2S implementation vs usb. Gaia uses OXCO clock with quality power supply for the clock, this vs Femto clocks on both my dacs, this on I2S within dacs which is standard pathway prior to analog conversion, usb clocks on usb boards is an entirely different thing. Note usb and i2s implementation can vary greatly between dacs, various quality clocks and the important power supplies for those clocks. My Musetec 006 has an extremely well implemented custom usb board, this superior to the Amamero board used in prior Musetec 005, my Laiv Harmony has a rather ordinary usb implementation. Anyway both dacs benefited greatly from using the Gaia clock vs internal I2S clock (usb board bypassed completely in this configuration). Difference with this is presentation now nearly indistinguishable from my very nice vinyl setup. Any and all semblance of a digital sound presentation was eliminated, music now flows pretty much exactly like my analog setup.

Some hurdles to overcome with streaming, one is extracting max resolution/transparency, this by paying extreme attention to noise on every single link in streaming chain. Good test for this is to have cd rips on either a streamer hard drive or well implemented NAS, compare exact same recordings, streams and rips should be indistinguishable, and streams in general should be fully immersive as rips.  Once you have this, presentation becomes the issue, clocking key to this, no excuse to have to put up with a digital sound signature. If one has vinyl setup easy to compare, otherwise aural memory and/or sense of relaxation or lack thereof will have to suffice. One other parameter of sound quality I've been able to control via streaming is tonal balance, this with usb and I2S cables, generally silver vs copper.

@fastfreight Thought just occurred to me, you should try eliminating both switches and/or just the Dejitterat and simply daisy chain your whole house wifi to your Verizon modem which if I understand you correctly is also a router, wifi remains disabled in Verizon. You still have your clean side, your Roon remote/ipad will see the entire network including streamers, and you can experiment with no switches, one switch or keep the two switch setup.

@dbastin In quickly perusing your setup the only issue I see is the wifi RFI issue in both Mikrotik and Devialet. Now I can see heroic issues taken by manufacturers to shield other circuits and components within devices, don't know if that case with these devices. My other issue is with the wifi receivers themselves, this especially vs a cleaned up and optimized ethernet input in a streaming device. This what my server accomplishes via my JCAT NetXE card. In my early days of streaming I went through a series of three different diy modded Mac Minis, won't go through all the permutations, but at one point was doing wifi with the 1st mini, eventually one of the mods was going to hard wire input, another subsequent move was to remove wifi antenna and disconnect circuit board connection to wifi receiver. In direct comparison there was an incremental improvement I could detect even in this relatively low level streaming setup. Not saying the Mikrotik and Devialet may have superior RFI suppression in their components. My own conclusion is absolutely no wifi on 'clean' or audio side of home network.

I'd also add RFI is likely an issue for us even with a 'clean' network for audio streaming. Most of us live in a very rich RFI environment, what with all the radio frequency equipment used on a mass scale. Some years ago I had located a Linn Mimik cd player in this one particular place in my listening room where I was picking up an FM station through my stereo system, moved the player no more issues. Dimmer switches are another source easily heard.So point is while this extreme example think how much RFI is masked, we simply don't hear it as an FM radio station of whatever, I presume very few of us really fully hear the full potential of our systems due to environmental RFI. I don't doubt are physical health impacted to some degree as well, plenty of info out there on this. In any case there are reasonable steps we can take to minimize it's impact on our stereo system.

Streaming is so complex and crazy. Sometimes more is less, other times less is more. We have so many devices to choose from to the point we're not close to determining some reference streaming network. Choosing hierarchy of dacs, streamers easy compared to the network.

@cleeds This is true, I started with a laptop. On the other hand, there is no end of streaming/network devices out there, some have found them to be helpful. Also, I presume those with more complex setups enjoy the entire process of experimenting with these devices, I find it fascinating and its provided continually improving sound quality.

@fastfreight Thanks for that video, don't poo poo the network!

Now I'm intrigued by the Dejitterit equipment, have to do my research on these products, will search the Audiophilestyle forum for threads on this. I'm really surprised the guys on youtube video are making claims these network products are affecting timbre, tonality, I've never heard any network device affect this, presentation, yes, presentation meaning timing, flow, this a clock thing.

@debrajray I wouldn't worry so much about confirmation bias, this a short term possibility, the long run proves out changes and their real value.