@nonoise + 1
Why should audiophile deniers be allowed on an audiophile forum?
Why should we be subjected to audiophile deniers, on a site dedicated to audio?
It’s antithetical to the hobby and adds nothing to the pursuit. I want to quote something from another thread.
@djones51 wrote "exposing bull products like "audiophile switches, cables, fuses " and other highly questionable devices that serve no purpose"
What then, is the purpose of people with this agenda being on this site? To “expose bull products.” It’s fine for someone to post they tried a product and it didn’t work for them, but to dismiss entire product categories is not a discussion that belongs on an enthusiast forum.
Would a car enthusiast site stand for this type of post?
Try going on a Porsche forum, just for example, and posting that your Mustang is just as fast 0-60 and that others poster’s claims about their driving experience is “dubious.” See how long that will be tolerated
There are plenty of sites to poke fun at audiophile’s obsession with cables, power conditioners etc. Why does it belong here, especially when we can’t mute specific posters?
What’s next? Arguing that speakers that measure the same must sound the same and that we are all suckers for buying expensive speakers? I thought we got rid of trolling?
Isn’t it obvious with all the ASR related posts here lately we are being trolled?
A couple of months back I read a post here about someone that ordered a new cat8 cable from China. I tried it and posted back my fantastic results for others to benefit.
Personally that’s the kind of forum I’m interested in, not to come here to be challenged about what I hear and that since it can’t be measured so it must be “dubious.”
380 responses Add your response
@jerryg123 , whatever you say jerry, or is it therealearlflynn, or is it skypunk? You reply the same way, every single time, in the same juvenile manner that it's lost all of it's offensiveness and just looks pathetic. Enjoy your ham. 🐷 All the best, |
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LOL back atcha . . . Russian spies in the WH, the sound of Donnie's slurping in Helsinki. . . . |
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This thread is a total whine fest and the reason why I rarely participate on audio forums. It always becomes an ignorant shouting match: If you believe in what some call "high end audio", then prove you can hear differences in controlled listening setting. Don't make excuses, just do it. If you don't believe in "high end audio" as some call it, then prove those that do can't hear what they claim and/or prove your measurements are accurate wrt to audibility. Until this happens these continual p---sing matches will never end. |
Wow... Enjoy reading "offtrack" threads like this one until they become political. helmholtzsoul -"I'll let MY wallet do the talking" comment is hoot as well as his claiming to like Kenjit's offerings here @ A'Gon. However, I do miss Geoffery Kait's (sp?) posts, as he was the Canoe to my English Leather.
DeKay |
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wolfie62-totally agree with you. You can physically drive 2 cars in a qtr mile and determine which is faster. How are you going to measure the sound of 2 cables? Some people will want to see graphs/measurements (foolish) and others will determine which 1 is better by listening. Why did somebody have to bring up MC? It has been so nice not having to read his $%&$. We all can agree to disagree on how a speaker sounds after you have heard it. With MC, he is recommending HIS speaker brand to people all while never have listened to them. This is wrong! People shouldn't be recommending something to someone unless you have listened/demoed/owned the product in person, not from reading a trade rag, or talking to the manufacturer. Another odd thing that happens on a regular basis (especially on ANA) and that's if a cable cost more than $50, it's a snake oil product/waste of money, and no better than a Best Buy $50 cable without even listening to it. These same people use $10-$50 cables thinking technology stops at this price range, but when I asked some of these same people on other websites why they don't use the .05 cent cables that come with the product, they say their cables are much better than the cheap 1's. Doesn't make sense. If you can hear a difference in cheap cables over the crappy cables in the box that come with it, why can't they hear the difference between their $10-$50 cables and a $4000 cable? |
@ghdprentice thanks for the suggestion. I’ve tried twice over the years to sign up for audioafficiando but was never accepted, probably because I wasn’t referred by another member. It’s run by a dealer (not sure if that influences posts) and the signature lines after every post are huge blocks of text which need to be scrolled through. Sometimes I read and post on What’sbest, computer audiophile and PS audio’s forums, but always spend much more time here in the hopes of finding lower cost amazing suggestions like the Onti cat8 I previously mentioned. |
Accusation of impersonification...Or trolling... And accusation of being a Trumpist ( i dont give a damn about Biden who will not make America great again for sure either) You never change your tune nonoise... You accuse someone each week of these sins.. That is something that is innerving...
Even if it was true....I dont have the faintest idea! And it does not bother me why? Because i am only interested by ARGUMENTS not by pseudo of people or political propaganda... Are you paid to control avatar names history of each one here and their political rightheousness?
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Yeah. I find the clueless folks annoying. When I can, I really like to try to help and encourage folks new to the pursuit. But the noise of those that can’t hear elementary sonic differences or like to deny the basics of high end audio distract from communication and encouragement, particularly those that are new to the pursuit. I honestly don’t know what to do about it. I try to ignore. But there are options. Audio Aficionado is a high end audio forum. No aggressive behavior is tolerated… and all the folks have very high end systems. So, absolutely no one would question the efficacy of high end cables, for instance, everyone has gone through learning all the basics. Of course there are not many newbies and not nearly the traffic as here. I like many of the questions because it makes me think about what I know about something I may never have really thought through and realize how to abstract it to something I have learned. |
One way to help it all move into some level of potential for perspective, is to understand the most fundamental point in all thing in all ways, is... differential. The beginning is differential. There truly isn’t anything other than differential. Existence can only 'be', in the shape and presence of - differential. Apparently we’ve got a bit too much of it right now. |
After reading all the mostly thoughtful responses, I'll say that this is clearly my problem, my issue of not wanting to spend time reading, engaging with or defending against "debunking" what in my mind are basic principles/building blocks of high end audio. For others on a different part of their journey, maybe it's a useful endeavor and represents what Audiogon is about in 2022. I've been a member here for 15 years, and try to learn and contribute what I can, and on rare occasions point out what topics and kind of posts demotivate me from participating. |
@immatthewj LOL not a Trumpster either. But I will say there was no genocide on his watch. Hey you better get back to CNN as they cannot stand losing their one viewer. Happy Easter. Please eat a lot of Ham and Deviled Eggs.
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Oh, not at all. Your post has been up over an hour. On AA, while the mods were basically conducting a thread about the cognizant decline of a politician who happened to be a dem, I pointed out that Dementia Donnie was under the impression that our military closed down all the airports during The War of 1812 and was advocating for IV infusions of disinfectants (to cure COVID). Within 5 minutes my post was removed and the main mod sent me a nasty-gram. |
Long term evaluation is the gold standard for audio review. Short term testing is a flawed concept. People can easily form the wrong opinion on a short term test but it's really hard to fool yourself over the long term. |
Perhaps, but I still bought a fairly substantial amount of Twitter stock after he did, then sold it after he announced his offer. Too risky to know how it will end. I will take the gains.
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This us-and-them mentality has crept into too many aspects of modern life. Once upon a time there were shades of grey. What if I believe it's worth getting an Audio Envy or Zavfino PC, but not a Hijiri or an AQ whatever? What if I believe a Littelfuse ceramic fuse for audio/medical is worth it, but not SR. What if I really like certain small speaker companies (beginning with F and S) but not others (beginning with T). It's called nuance. Don't let it be a foreign concept! |
I concur...
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To the op, @emailists , that you made this part of your original posts seems to show lack of understanding of what an "audiophile" forum is. If this (or similar) forums was a Passlabs forum, and someone came on and said my "Pick you amp" was 10x better, than your example would apply. This is not a Passlabs forum. You appear to want to be exposed to only one path to achieving acoustic nirvana. That is both boring, isolationist, and flawed. Both sides of the argument can have value to share with the other side. One side can share with the other how deviating from "perfect" can result in something that you like more, while the other side, can show them, once communicated, how to better achieve their goals.
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I'm a newbie here over the past few months as I've gotten back into audio, so I'm hardly qualified to give an opinion on the quality or utility of individual components. I'll just note that the OP's complaint could really cut both ways on these boards. For every skeptic who questions the ROI of dropping megabucks on cables and interconnects, there are just as many high enders who look down their noses at value priced components ("mid-fi, at best" seems to be the mantra). It seems like in both directions these judgments are passed without the benefit of actually hearing the component in question. And I have to add, I have friends who have traded their Porsches for Mustang Cobras, and no knowledgeable auto enthusiast would overlook the capabilities of a performance-focused Mustang. The two cars have very different means of accomplishing the same results (going very fast around a track), but it really comes down to how you want to get there. |
This is just more us versus them mentality. Sick of that. Don’t fall for it. My guy misbehaved and was punished now it’s all those evil people with minds of their own who got to go. It’s pretty petty and juvenile really. Act like an adult and obey the rules and all is fine.
If an opinion differs from one’s own so what? Just stick by your convictions. Bad audiophile naysayers can’t really hurt you. Don’t be a baby! See that’s not so difficult is it? |
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Further, playing music to someone that they are unfamiliar with on a system that either isn't theirs or doesn't sonically resemble theirs under the provisions of 'blind testing is absolute' is a waste of time. Their innate framework for identifying and analyzing the music as played with any changes made is far too different in most cases to allow for a true comparison. Guessing is not analysis. |
What's happening on Twitter is not at all like what's happening here. Way to go out yourself for all to see. The whole motive behind Musk's move is to excite TFG's base so he can manipulate the stock (again) before he dumps it, just like he did with Dogecoin, fleecing the rubes who followed his tweets. People here can be so dense. All the best, |
Audio2design was just one of his many names. He must have come back here at least ten times I can recall. AtDavid, Dannad, Robertdid, Cindy(something),... I really lost track of them. Perhaps someone can come up with a more comprehensive list :-)
Oh.... I am pretty sure he is lurking around, and reading this (hello!)
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You can have your own opinions but you/we should never be allowed to cross the line of civilized discourse and take the 'I disagree with you as my experience was different' position into an attack on the intelligence of the poster disagreed with. That distinction is why many internet comments sections are gone now. |
Good point. We can all learn the lessons from the blatantly biased way the Twitter platform was run. And does matter? $30 billion+ says that it does.
The 0-60 of a Mustang can be objectively tested. Almost all things claimed to improve a stereo's sound are done via "because I hear a difference and I know what I hear." Until audiophiles allow or at least accept blind testing, they'll likely never be taken very seriously. Especially when some believe stuff like these things (literally magic crystals) make a difference in a system. https://walkeraudio.com/?product=black-diamond-room-treatment-crystals
Agreed. Audiophiles are already out on somewhat of a limb already but if we were to restrict debate and criticism we may just find ourselves hopelessly detached from the rest of humanity.
However, the rest of us understand that this is a forum to discuss matters musical, and not a mere vehicle for untrammelled free advertising. In any case, isn't it always better to allow the dear reader to take in the various arguments and ultimately make up their own mind? It's all too easy to get sucked in by someone else's apparent enthusiasm, even if it seems to change month after month. In fact, this was the main lesson I learned after decades of reading hi-fi reviews. Blind listening tests and comparison against long term reference products should be mandatory if reviews are to be anything other than mere flavour of the month opinions. I understand that times are tough and it's important to support the audio industry. I love audio, and I want to see it thrive. Surely anyone who seeks to have access to higher performance playback equipment deserves the best chance to access it, don't they? If so, then forums like this one can certainly do their part, but let's not kid ourselves that get rich quick fly-by-night scammers don't exist. |
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@immatthewj The "far left" eh? You mean the ones that invaded Iraq, separated parents from their children at the border, and stormed the Capitol? Oh, yeah, I'm really really afraid of them. Turn off Faux, please, or try to eat healthier. Something is not firing. |
Sounds like Audio Asylum. Political flame throwing is okay as long as you don’t hurt anyone’s feelings by saying something mean about Fat Donnie. |
Not exactly no... All is not black and white... I am perhaps guilty of loving to discuss too much... 😁😊 But it is better too much tolerance than less... The only thing i cannot admit is insults with no logical arguments...i can accept insults against me IF WITH logical arguments...My back is enough solid... 😊 Anyway i will answer...Politely is the better... And a thread is not a "jail" were some are in captivity... If you dont like the "cellmates" you go to another thread no?
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I understand where you are coming from here. You are willing to put up with so much BS because in the end it's worth it. I get it. But for others participating in the thread or others looking in, it's an ugly situation. |
For sure you are right about this kind of behaviour...What differentiate us is the amount of tolerance perhaps and the way we can judge circonstance ...But you are right about the principle... I dont want to disagree with you on this at all...
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An anecdote: I had only two real "heavy" discussions here for the last 7 years... One i will pass over...No relation to audio matters... But the second one was also with someone i disagree with and it was about audio matter... . Our discussion last 2 months daily here... The man was a very knowledgeable man in audio, way more than most here, me included ( I know this for a fact trust me)... But no one is perfect... I realized discussing "heavily" with him that he was not right about something important in audio : the timbre perception... To make a story short i am indebdted to him so much , i wrote to him to thank him at the end in spite of the "heavy" sometimes hard discussion, because without him i would had never made my most important personal discovery in acoustic/psycho-acoustic... Then you will understand why i try to appreciate all people, even if i heavily disagree with some, and why discussion based on arguments are so important... My search to answer him because his knowledge was more than mine in all audio aspects , teach me a lot... At the end i made my most important discovery and i am greatly thankful to him... And he was perceived as a "troll" and act sometimes like one and he provoked some reaction in me not always positive because i am not perfect either... Imagine now that this dude has been banned from here or cancelled because some described him as a troll? i will have never made my search in acoustic to answer him and i will had never made my discovery... Than my most precious moment here were with someone i disagree completely about something...I thank him till today... Our best adviser are sometimes some we call our foes... I dont want censorship of any kind... Save restricting the amount of insults someone can give to another one for sure...Politeness and arguments only....
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