"The Bugatti is a total package not parts you put together.Â
Hi Tbg. I donÂt think we disagree. In fact, I think you just made the point I was trying to make rather better than I did. Sticking with the Bugatti example, one could collect of all of the parts necessary to construct a Bugatti or any other exotic he desires. How many people would have the vision and knowhow to build one? And if your audio plan is to engage one of the self proclaimed experts in our hobby, you better be lucky. Back to the Bugatti example, the expert would take those parts and build you something that will drive... and perhaps very nicely. But still, there was the unrealized potential of a Bugatti. |
At least one technical explanation has occurred to me as to why the number 'true' audiophiles has recently declined - despite the fact that most gear quality continues to improve. Over the last 5 years I'd begun investigating the whole topic of power conditioning for myself. Right away I was struck with the fact that not everybody was necessarily satisfied with their solutions, so I learned to proceed cautiously. A couple years ago I came across the Alan Maher Designs website (now facebook only). Although I ultimately tried a few different gizmos from him and was encouraged (absolutely sold was more like it), I eventually came to understand from Alan that the only thing his devices were actually designed to do was to reduce electrical noise - nothing else. Ok, so good, so far. But, the thing is that Alan maintains the idea that "dirty power" from the power company is basically just an audio myth (unless you live within 5 miles of high-arcing heavy industrial motors...like a sawmill, or something). He says (and I've come around to agree with him) that the real source of electrical noise in the home is not the grid, but, in fact, everything that is plugged into the home. Including everything that comes with a sleep mode. Anything that's turned on and is drawing power can generate noise and anything in sleep mode makes 90-95% of the noise the device makes when it's fully on. Of course, every appliance will generate noise - noise that's bidirectional and (despite the fact that it tends to dissipate over distance) will make its way back to the circuit breaker box where it's then redistributed all over the house. I know this is a long explanation, but bear with me. The big problem is that in a modern house, we have a crazy number of devices plugged into the home and almost every one of them these days has a sleep mode. Not only all your appliances, but everything from your clock radio to all your computers, cell-phone chargers, your coffee maker - anything programmable, anything with digital circuitry (which is actually just about everything)...even a wall-wart that's not hooked up to anything and its power light is on...not even to mention your own gear itself - all of the components - everything is throwing noise back to the breaker box - and all that, coincidently, is what Alan's many devices are meant to tackle (at the source, in most cases). But, my point in all this rambling, is that this overcrowding of noise-generating appliances in the home was definitely NOT the case 30 and 40 years ago...! In THOSE homes, only noise was generated when something was in use - and not all that much noise when it was in use. The result?? HiFi's had a much better chance of sounding good for less money back then than they do at all now. A surprisingly much better chance IMO, as it turns out (now that I've had the last 2 years to experiment with Alan's gear myself). Generally, no one has really been aware of this decline in the HiFi environment, in part, because it's been so completely incidious, making its presence felt so slowly over time and only by degrees. It's a real reason why so many people remember their systems of that era so fondly - not strictly so much a matter of sheer nostalgia after all, I think. I can tell from direct experience now, that we would generally perceive these adverse effects on our systems as a more "electronic" kind of sound, a difficulty in achieving system neutrality, harshness, ongoing sibilance problems and a case of the incurable "digital nasties". |
Come to think of it, Alan says that flat-panel TV's are likely the single noisiest appliance found in the home, nowadays. But, no wonder if maybe introductory vinyl- or digital-based systems are not turning on quite as many people as they used to...my experience, so far, anyway. |
I think its mostly more things to compete for peoples leisure interests and affections these days including portable audio. Mobile is where its at these days. And even when sitting at home on ones arse, just for entertainment purposes, internet, gizzilions of cable channels, video games, HD TV etc. Times change... |
perhaps people love music and the reproduction of recordings in the home, but don't want to be called an "audiophile"--a term which has negative connotations.
i'm sure that when exposed to quality sound, even a tyro would appreciate the sound of instruments. it's just the notion of being considered an audiophile which may not be attractive to most people. i think the term "audiophile" may be associated with "lunatic", for many people. |
Years ago when I first went high end. I had three ARC pieces (SP-3, Dual 51, and Dual 75A, a Linn LP12, and a Charlie the Tuner. The sat on their own feet on wooden cabinet shelves and were plugged into a power strip and into the wall. Ics were cheap and the speaker wire was heavy gauge lighting wire. There were perhaps six other guys in town with pretty comparable systems in a town of about 50k and three dealers. Many people had speakers and a receiver and the local dealers sold them. I see many of these systems still in use by friends of my age. Most of these friends don't have home theater systems or even big HD tvs. They are the old amusement style families. I still maintain that in part it is other amusements, but also is the expense of vibration isolation, electrical power, and high quality wires. This is not to say that our sound today isn't far better than long ago, but all that stuff has to be bought and is hard to hide and has low WAF.
If you took away HD large screens, BlueRay, Iphones, Ipads, MP3 noise, etc., you would end up with bored people not more receptive to quality audio. |
"I know you never thought about it but ask yourself later. When you turn on your stereo, does it return the favor?"
..........Van Halen "A Different Kind of Truth" |
"I know
You never thought about it but
Ask yourself later
When you turn on your stereo
Does it return the favor?"
Van Halen - The Trouble With Never |
Tbg,
A very succinct observation. I agree. |
Well, audio is too often a lonely and solitary hobby.This goes against human nature as man is a social animal. This is the reason why audio clubs/societies exist. To get together with like minded people and socialize. As the founder of an audio club here in Las Vegas, every meeting has been a blast. I understand some audiophiles are socially awkward, but that shouldn't stop them from interacting with fellow audiophiles either in person or here on the internet. Anyway, if you're in the Vegas area and would like to join the club, go to our blog and check it out. Our contact info is on there. It's free to join and there's no rankings at the moment. We're gonna have a guest speaker in December, so you don't really wanna miss it.
http://lasvegasaudioclub.blogspot.com/ |
A guy at work that Makes very decent money,was saying how he could not wait until he got his tax refund . He was going to buy a killer HT system,,,,,,,So I start talking to him .I got around to asking how much he planned on spending,,,the answer,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,300.00 or so !!! |
Raytheprinter, was he serious? Even when I first got into audio in the late '50s $300 would not have bought a system or even kits to make one. |
Probably more people than ever love audio these days.
Most of them are loving it using portable devices and earphones and ear buds that already sound far better than most similar fairly inexpensive audio devices of years past.
After that there are those enjoying it on their home A/V systems, not to mention in their cars
Then there is everyone else. |
Yes, as has been said several times, there are many more distractions now. |
If its not in your blood, it's not in your home. Audiophiles represent a small segment of society and we enjoy the fact that we can, and do distinguish ourselves from the mainstream. This in turn makes us very unique in good way. |
you can thank iPods and Sonos..... Personally I would rather drive a crappy car and have a killer 2 ch system. In fact I drove many crappy cars for the past 30 years..... my current preamp actually cost more than several cars I have owned.
Today's generation wants quantity and convenience over sound quality... for example, I recently bought new speakers. I asked my 15 year old if he wanted my old speakers and an amp that I wasn't using, a pair of PSB M2 Platinums which are a great speaker and an audio design associates 200w stereo amp. He declined, holding his phone up and saying "i'm all set". I would have killed for gear of that caliber when I was 15......... |
Oddiofyl, very good point & you are right, I enjoyed reading your post. Case in point, my daughter thought my system sounded good but she said I don't know what to listen for. She loves music but she was content going back to her room and listen to her boombox. I think it just comes down to pleasing ourselves. |
I played an old analogue recording of Joan Baez on vinyl to my wife and she said it was "good but there's too much detail"...
Then I played the DDD CD she recorded (she is a wonderful mezzo-saprano). It was fairly flat. Then I played her a 60s record of Julie Andrews. The difference was amazing. She could "see" Julie in the room, hear her lips smack, the wetness in the mouth... and was pretty impressed. Later, I overheard her on the phone telling a friend that records were much better than CDs! |
more people love music than the configuration of stereo systems to attain quality of sound. its obvious why.
the natural inclination of human beings is laziness. quality is sacrificed for convenience.
moreover, sound quality , for many does not enhance the enjoyment of listening to music.
the message of the music and the emotional content can be communicated using any medium.
the reason is intrinsic to the psychology governing human behavior. |
Why don't more people shop at Nordstrom? |
Last time I walked through Nordstrom (they have convenient parking to access the Mall) they had a sale rack of mens denim jeans with the standard designer-cut holes etc, but with added white house paint dribbles.
Perhaps faux blood smearings would have been more trendy, hence salable. |
FWIW, I think that it is determined by your personal history. If you grew up loving music and listening to it on a decent stereo through good speakers or headphones, then you realize that your experience can be enhanced through better equipment as electronics have evolved. You then allocate some time to seeking the best equipment you can afford because its important to you. An analogy would be that you grew up liking cars, so today you are driving or lusting after that Porsche or Ferrari. Its not rocket science, but if you have a passion for something and the means to afford it, you pursue it. |
That make sense...the only thing I have to add is it's a drive to get closer to the music, and approximate the tonal quality of real instruments, providing the recording allows it! A great system allows you to do that, imo. |
They need to hear it. My wife came down to my "man cave" and thought she was going to hear this loud stereo. Mind you I just set it up for a test run, much room work needs to be done.
Four hours later she's going to her car to get some more CDs. |
Cool. Sounds good. Yes, I agree. Hearing is believing. |
I think the answer to this question really lies in the fact that most people are either ignorant or embarrassed to identify with music (like classical or real jazz) that definitely IMO benefits the most from high end components. "Real music" is to a certain degree an acquired taste and takes a little digging and understanding to get full value from. I said full value. A lot of what is considered music today does not benefit that much after a certain price point in a system. And if you think that sounds a little nerdie I was going to Rollling Stones, Jethro Tull, Frank Zappa, Black Sabbath, Jimi Hendrix concerts before many of you were born. Really, most people are not willing to get out of their box and try something new. I couldn't stand classical music until a surgeon I was working with (I am an anesthetist) forced it on us and you know what? A few years later half my music collection is classical music. So, we need to inspire our young folks to be more well rounded in all musical genres. That, I think will inspire them to be more appreciative of instruments that can reproduce the sound as if they were hearing it live. Just my 2 cts. |
Related question, surely debated around here: where are the women? Their hearing is better than ours, that's known biology. And this hobby is what, 95% male?
I've been to several audio shows out of state, and it's a depressing sausage fest. Most pax are old, fat, white guys. Wearing pleated pants and $4 bargain bin short sleeves, even whilst peddling big buck equipment...the humanity.
Both those topics, the gender aspect and the utter lack of professional appearance and/or interest in physical health are worth separate threads. At least for the popcorn factor, watching y'all blow a gasket over what I wrote.
Maybe I've stumbled over the connection why there are so few women in this hobby...look around.
I'm an endurance athlete, and spend countless hours with my rig; they're not incompatible. My gut doesn't hang over my belt, nor will it ever (and I'm pushing 50). Get yourself a pair of Fluevogs and work from the ground up.
Thank me now or later, either fine. |
In the early '80s I first saw the internet used for the first time. Being a professor soon I had the ability to use it to communicate with colleagues in other colleges. Then I got the ability to use dial up at home. Then one could buy a tiny music storage device with earbuds. Also coming along we computer games and cellphones.
Audio is relaxing, which is the last thing the present culture encourages. Swinfrey and Scott W, you both seem ill-adjusted to contemporary culture. I have been at reproducing music at home since the early 1960s. I know that my culture is now passe and soon will be the case for the baby boomers. I remember when television first came and when I first saw a football gave involving the Chicago Bears versus ? Football used to be less import than basketball and certain baseball.
Scott w, women have always been far less common among audiophiles. Presently I know one and over the years have known of perhaps twenty. I have always asked women audiophiles how they got involved. An audiophile father is often the reason.
I |
Different strokes for different folks.
No sense in getting offended or attempting to look down on others because they don't want to come to your party.
They are having their own parties and apparently it's working just fine for them.
Live and let live. |
Probably they got tired, trying to find which is better, of the following, and gave up:
1. Tubes or Solid State
2. Digital or Analog
And maybe recently:
PCM or DSD
:-))) |
EVERYBODY at the superbowl party commented on how much they enjoyed the halftime show with Katy Perry, Lenny Kravitz, and that other woman. "That was terrific!" ... "Oooooo!" ... "Awesome!" ... Brought to us via POS speakers from somewhere inside the TV no less. I just rolled my eyes and staggered into the kitchen for more bean dip, my audiophile heart crushed to bits. |
Tbg - your 'system' url leads to a thread on circuit boards. Details my man, they matter. Well, unless you have tenure of course, then nothing matters, right? Good gig if you can get it. Sidebar - I used to teach college statistics. I know the drill. Not my thing long term but good way to meet the ladies, if you make it interesting, which I did...indeed I did. Brought em over to jam to my Klipsch Heresy's, which are still kicking. Those things are indestructible.
Swinfrey - totally agree. Good to have an open mind w/music. I'm currently soaking up 5 newly arrived box sets: Mancini, Nat Cole, Keith Jarrett (Sun Bear concerts), JL Hooker, Howling Wolf. Also have Bill Evans on heavy rotation lately. Never listened to jazz until around 10 years ago, and now it's my fave genre.
Rockadanny - Sweet rig. I know Alex of WyWires, from shows. My rig is all his. Also have Audio Metallurgy ICs I sometimes swap in (but don't tell him that). |
Rockadanny - Sweet rig. Thanks Scott! I do like 'er. Likewise. |
Rockadanny, too little attention is paid to the ancient saying that the good is the enemy of the best.
IMO, its mortal enemy. |
They might have to put up with other fussy audiophiles? |
Scott_w, after Audiogon wiped out my system the second time, I gave up on showing it. |
Scott_w, my posting of my appeal for welding connections showing up as my system is an example of Audiogon screw-ups. |
Tbg - I tweeted to agon a question about nuking my old virtual system last week, as support had no idear. The next day a product manager (not support) wrote me a coherent reply, noting a major site makeover they're doing in a few months. That will fix many problems apparently.
Ergo: maybe tweets are a better means? Worth a shot? |
When someone checks out sites like audiogon,, they like what they see,,hmmm ,seems like a great hobby! Then they discover the,,, snake oil side of this hobby,and start to wonder about the sanity of the audiophile.As well as ,is this for real or a joke! Some of the stuff sold in the tweak section will have the average person shaking their head in disbelief,,,,or thinking we audiophiles are a bunch of fools. |
It's simply a matter of preference and resource allocation.
The same can be said of anything.
Why don't more people love yoga?
Why don't more people love French cuisine?
Why don't more people love hunting?
Everyone can't love everything.
I've talked to number of my friends that love music and it's simply that they have other things that they are more involved. Many see it as a bit obsessive as well. Many have heard really nice systems and can appreciate the hobby but still don't feel the need to be that involved. These are people I go to plenty of concerts with and talk music with. They simply have other interests or varied interests. These days most people don't have the time to have more than one hobby. |
Raytheprinter if you live and breath audio it can be hard to keep them demons at bay but the common interest is music and I don't any longer get anal about buying or trying audio gear like I used to. I think Audiogon has actually helped me in this arena by giving myself and others the ability to sample many different products and reselling to try something else.
Yes must be careful about some tweaks and ask yourself does the cost justify the means. The fools are the ones that leap before looking. |
Someone will call them an audiophile? 😶 |
Mapman, yes, audiophiles and some people will call them audiofools, I know I been there. |
Audiophile has a lot of baggage. I prefer music lover. Except some audiophile is likely to dissect what even that means to bits. You just can't win. Better off just listening than talking about it maybe. 😖 |
It's a cottage industry largely because it portrays the image of being expensive and inclusive while the reality is any smart guy who knows what todo can put together a top notch sounding system for not much. Know how is the key ingredient, not money. |
Mapman you are correct, it is experience/know how. |
Face it, one, you have to have more of a love for music than most AND you MUST have more than a bit of OC behavior in your personality.
Perfectionist might sound better but same difference.
Biggest difference among audiophiles themselves is some compete with others, some with their own inner scale.
No judgements implied(really). |
I think there are multiple types of audiophiles. Certainly when I first got into music reproduction and later into stereo, I was more of a poor guy who loved jazz and much classical music. In undergraduate school in Chicago with WFMT being a local station, I had great classical music. I could go to several jazz clubs when I had any money. I would have to say that I was mainly a music lover. But going to graduate school and remaining poor changed that. I had to gain my own sources for good music, namely records and had to get components that were cheap, I built Heathkits and Dyna units. When money came more ample, I sought better gear.
One day walking past an audio store, I heard wonderous music and went in. There I heard the Infinity ServoStatics driven by ARC tube equipment. I bought no part of my system because of looks and I lived with the Servos for five years. I even sought the ServoStatic 1As and once got close to buying them, but that is not my story now.
Clearly I was on a quest for realism. This got to be very troublesome when I taught on Long Island and earlier at UCLA. All sorts of exotic equipment was around. But I really didn't get ahead in my quest. Music was serving an important role at that time as I worked toward tenure. I was a music lover audiophile. But I sought a full frequency response for playing symphonic reproduction. I also learned to again love tube sound.
Then perhaps four or five years ago, I heard examples of good music where the performance sounded real! I think once you have experienced this, a music lover realizes that he or she can experience great performances. This has become an abiding interest of mine.
So I think there are three types of audiophiles. Stage I is loving music and replacing hearing it live with cheap audio equipment. Stage II is loving music that is well reproduced. And Stage III is great reproduction and realism. |
TBG, that was very well put. I like the three types of Audiophiles. Question, do you think that stage III as far as great reproduction and realism can be obtained for a lot less money these days because of the improvements in parts etc.? |
Phd, given my experience with the top High Fidelity Cables and power cords and with the Tripoint Troy Signature and their Thor SE cables, this has been very expensive for me. But I also remember that long ago the H-Cat preamp and amp gave a very nice holographic image. I still have both in my system in NM. They may be coming back into business, but time will tell.
I should add that I am not saying that the H-Cat was the equal to what I'm getting today, but it did start me thinking that vocalists and musicians were in the room with me. Now, however, outside my listening room with a recording of a piano, sounds convincingly like the real thing.
What is striking is that cables, power cords, grounding units now represent more than half of the cost of my system! I must say that last night was thrilling. I don't know where you live but if you are in or near Texas, or if you ever want to drive up from a Houston airport, come on by an experience this. |
