I can put together a system that sounds as real as a symphony orchestra in full cry for 10K .
A jazz trio for half that.
Madonna for a hundred bucks. |
Schubert, obviously you have never been to a live concert or heard a jazz trio live. Basically, I know full well that you lie. |
TBG, that is interesting that you still possess the H-Cat, that was an interesting thread in itself. Definitely would love to hear your system in Texas, my sister lives there and have been to Texas one time at Fort Worth many years ago, parents were stationed there.
Your cabling and grounding units, making up half the cost of your system, seems like a sound investment and it may not be that uncommon but I personally cannot make that same claim but do recognize the importance of these investments in sound quality. |
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Schubert, Okay what is in this miracle $10,000 system you say you can whip up? |
Tbg, I think that Schubert is joking. If he can do Madonna for $100.00 I'm curious what he can for $50.00. |
I can do John Kerry watching James Taylor for $1.98. |
Phd, look for a reviewer whose first name is Norm on StereoTimes and email me through the email address there. |
Madona sounds really good on my $90 high quality table radio fed from my computer at work. In mono of course. :^}
Tbg, my system comes in arounfd $10K or so in terms of what I actually paid, a lot more at list price. It does it pretty good! I've been to many concerts and symphonies and pay close attention to what I hear. I can think of many other combos that could do it as well. Its a silly question to ask really in that its all a matter of opinion, even when its yours. Although I can say that on paper my setup has the specs to pull it off at least. Plus all my tweaks are cost effective and practical. |
I hope this thread does not become yet another good example of why more people don't love audio....... |
Mapman, be happy and enjoy. And you certainly are doing your best to fulfill public indifference to audio. |
Tbg,
I appreciate that.
Everyone has to start someone and fulfill their own needs.
We should encourage people to not be afraid to try out the waters always as best they can, not scaring them away with talk about how hard or expensive it is. Nor by challenging whether or not they know what they are doing are not. We all can learn something along the way with that approach I think. |
Mapman,
It has alway been expensive and most of us have started off knowing very little. I bought my first system when I was making $99/week and it was a cost me just over $800 or 15% of my yearly salary. Much later I bought the Infinity ServoStatics, two ARC stereo amps, and the SP3 for a combined total of $3000 when I was making $15,000 or 20% of my yearly salary. This time was worse as my nurse wife wasn't working while we had young children.
What is worse now, however, is the low standards that youth now has about music and how needy they are of having constant contact and music. We had no smart phones, internet, music everywhere, even outside elevators (meaning that they don't know what elevator music is). I'm not saying that we had it better, but we did have it different. |
Yup me too.
I did have the advantage of employee discounts at the time though to help me stretch my very limited student budget that went into both equipment and buying music regularly.
I started off as a kid with a Magnavox record player with built in amp and fold out speakers. Actually that belonged to my older siblings. I really started out myself with a $10 transistor radio, then a $30 8 track player, then a $200 Sanyo compact system as a gift at about 13.
TOday kids start out pretty well with computers, tablets, mobile phones, etc. compared to a transistor radio or even a Sony Walkman. Plus they can download and acces a lot of music for free. SO they have a big head start at their age than many of us older geeks. |
IT's probably just "high end" audio as defined in these parts that more do not love.
I think many love good music and good sound and find their version of it in more ways than ever tehse days, often on a limited budget.
Many people do love anything "high end" though in general. Especially if it would fit their lifestyle. Its just that most just want enough good sound to fit their needs. And most also want high end cars, houses, clothing, cigars, mates, etc., the list goes on forever more than they do "high end" audio. The numbers don't lie! |
The only solution is to offer better value over time in "high end audio". Then more will come. Will the "high end" vendors profit more or less? Like most things I suppose it all depends. |
Let me get this straight. We don't really know what High End Audio is exactly, it depends on who you talk to. And we don't really have any idea how many people are on High End Audio. Well, we know it might be about 100 or it might be more, a whole lot more. And now were worried about the prices to get into this High End Audio having to come down so every Tom Dik and Harry can get in? I'm not sure I like the sound of that. |
I doubt if cheaper high end would make much difference. Make something that you can sell for $50,000 and sell ten of and live off that. |
The average American worker makes less today than 20 years ago.
With globalization ,aka semi-slave wages in 3rd world, it will only get worse.There is no course but to fleece the well-off to rich consumer. |
Geoffkait, with 42% of all wealth concentrated in 1% of the top wealthy, they are the ones with discretionary money to buy equipment. I am not worried about the need for prices to be reduced, I am worried about the impact of the loss of the middle-class. There is not much reason for them to support government. |
They will have the same reason they have had for a century,the greatest brainwashing mechanism planet earth has ever seen, US K-12 . |
Hmmmm, speaking of statistics, one wonders how many of the super rich are audiophiles. My guess is about 0.5%. |
now were worried about the prices to get into this High End Audio having to come down so every Tom Dik and Harry can get in? I'm not sure I like the sound of that.) Hmmm, wonder if that has anything has to do with the fact that you're one of those who sells high end audio? |
I've been in the real estate business for 38 years, so you can imagine how many homes I've been into. During the busy seasons I'm into up to 50 homes a week. It has always amazed me how many homes ... and its the majority, that have NO books and NO music. They live a life as shallow as their flat screen TVs. Taking my books and music away would be like chopping off my right and left arms. I guess its just the way America is these days. |
Opapa - I too am surprised at the absence of not only quality playback gear, but usually no gear at all. Not just in nicer homes for sale, but also show homes on tour. It's not like these folks don't have the funds for it. It is simply off their radar. But then again, perhaps they are wealthy because they have not spent their fortune chasing audio gear. Hmm ... |
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Already tons of good points made in this thread, obviously.
I have recently noticed the rather strange, yet somehow incredibly addicting, phenomenon of High End Audio being "displayed and demoed" on youtube. That is, both owners of stereo systems "playing" the system for the viewer, and then
tons and tons of video of systems playing music at high end audio shows.
Putting aside the issue of trying to ascertain a system's sound vie youtube...:-)...one thing that struck me in watching them reminded me of this thread:
When you see video of a bunch of audiophiles listening to high end systems, it does tend to invoke some of the negative cliche's. Mostly, it's a bunch of nerdy, middle aged white guys, leaning forward in their chairs, motionless, eyes closed or with furrowed brows, concentrating on the sound (or music). It looks, frankly, sort of stuffy and joyless, and not very social at all.
Now, I put on my system at home and love it. But, yeah, it's not easily amenable to a relaxed sociable setting, the type of which most people enjoy. I mean, if you are talking to someone over the sound, you are mostly missing the types of sonic features most of us are paying for in the first place.
I totally get why this is not a popular pass time, especially these days.
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Oregonpapa,
That's fascinating about the homes without books and music.
Recently on another AVforum someone mentioned that they didn't really listen to music. I queried, perplexed by this, and he responded that he appreciated what music added to movies and games or whatever, but beyond that music just didn't interest him at all, he never listens to music.
Frankly, in all my life, I have never encountered such a creature. (Then again, I grew up in a very musical family, father being a music teacher, all of us playing instruments, everyone I know being into music).
Your post suggests this creepy, twilight-zone phenomenon is wider than I would have guessed.
My conclusion is that we have, fortunately, stumbled upon a way of telling the body-snatching pod people from real folk! |
I have books in my house , I had a pretty nice system going. I figured out that I enjoy listening to music through headphones more. So I bought a nice pair of Shure 846's.
I sold my system off and downgraded to a system that I'm thrilled with.
I realized that I was just too antsy to sit in the sweet spot for more than a couple of minutes. I can however sit through movies , plays, concerts , etc.
for hours.
I would think many people in today's times are the same way. To really enjoy a high end system , I think it's import to stay in the sweet spot. I don't need an eight grand system to dust around the room, do dishes in the next room over. |
"I can...sit through movies, playes, concerts, etc. for hours." Well, a listening session is a concert in your home. Isn't that the whole point of exceptional sound? |
I haven't read the whole thread but it is certainly interesting and varied. I write this from a perspective of having been once a devotee of high quality audio who set it to the side due to having two kids, a demanding profession and a wife who was not in the least going to give me the space to sit down and enjoy my system. Got rid of the wife. She gave me the kids, so more years in the wasteland without. 30 years.
Kids gone, something missing here. Oh yeah, why not.
Has NO IDEA all this existed at such a high level. Found out about BAT, VIP, Fidelity Research, Balanced cables, LOMC, Power Conditioners on and on. But I had to research, a lot of it here on Audiogon. Started looking and voila.
The take away here is that very few allow themselves the space to separate out and indulge. But I'm a music lover, live music has always been there for me. I really think if more people knew how close to the live music experience they could get with high end audio, more would be interested. Very poor marketing is a big part of it. And face it, it is an indulgence, ever how worthy it may be. People do little indulgences now and high end audio is not a small indulgence. It's just the times. |
I think this thread has gotten around to the real point that hearing realistic reproduction of music and the thrill of classic performances entails more than bookshelf speakers and a receiver sitting in one corner of your living room.
I started this hobby while in college and stayed low key through graduate school, two kids growing up, many moves, and a wife that went from being a nurse to a top hospital administrator. With the kids gone, she announced that she did not want her living room being a "laboratory." We moved into a house with a big game room, which became my man cave.
Now I have mono blocks, both vinyl and digital quality sources, 200 pound speakers, room treatments, quality cabling, using magnetics, vibration control, thousands of records, cds, scads, etc. I seldom watch anything other than NOVA, some college football and basketball games, a few other PBS programs, and morning news programs while I am either not in the room or engaged in Yoga.
Occasionally, a non-audiophile friend asks to hear my system or I demonstrate it for grandkids. Response is mainly, "it sounds real." And I can see they are ready to move on. In the past my kids while they were young would ask that my music be playing when they went to sleep.
Oh, and I have achieved incredible realism in my music. I'm happy. |
they do but not expensive one. |
Czarivey, I've been there and know what you are saying, But realism may not be achieved with in expense equipment, but I'm not saying, in the least, that if it is not quite expensive it cannot be good. I've certainly heard many very expensive pieces that I wouldn't pay one tenth of their price to own. One does need some flexibility in what one can afford. |
The talk directly above brings to mind a couple of things: Seinfeld. It pretty much reflected where society and culture were at the time, and music was rarely mentioned though movies often were. Of course, the show was about actors. My sisters never listen to music by itself, but they didn't when we were kids, either. The TV is constantly on in their houses though, even when no one is watching it. Makes me crazy---I walk over and turn it off. I even know musicians who don't listen to any music but their own, and then on the crappiest system you can imagine---a boombox! High end to them is the speakers in their computer monitor. |
My system is barely high end by most of your standards. But I'm getting there! I've heard the awesome realism in salons, and know what I want! I am an audiophile, after all. But I have friends who come to my house, and we set around and drink while I play my stereo for our enjoyment. They love coming by to hear good music! So I ask, why don't you have a stereo? You make as much as me? Excuses already mentioned, "I've got kids", "the wife wouldn't allow it", "why should I when I can come here once a week?".
I think it's kind of like Radio. They came out with XM and Serious radio, better radio! Digital quality with no commercials! But people just didn't want it, they grew up thinking that music should be free! Or at least cheap. Even I refuse to subscribe, I'm happy with my analog FM tuner that runs for free.
Lots of people do enjoy good stereo! But they just don't love it enough to pay for it. Simple as that. When people ask what I paid for this or that, they always suck wind and whistle, or call me crazy. Even though they go out of their way to come to my house to listen, they wouldn't dream of spending their own money to hear it. I would never spent several thousand dollars to have a painting from a known artist hang in my house, few people would. Kind of the same thing, it's all in a persn's priorities. Few of us find good music important enough to part with the money, regardless of what your system costs. I recall at the salon a pair of B&K mono amps driving some Vandersteens with a Sota table, well under $10K, and it was amazing! Sure there are more expensive systems that sound even better, but it was very competent. I guess we should be happy that there are enough of us to have an industry at all! Recall back in the 50's, hi fi systems were home made! With amps scavenged out of old consoles and plywood horns, steel needles dragging around in lacquer platters, that has grown into quite the industry has it not? |
I have a friend who was all about McIntosh equipment with a Thorens TT in the 70's. More recently he was fine with a BOSE Wave radio/CD combo that unnerved me to no end. I'm happy to say he's now into high-rez files, headphone amps and 4-figure phones. The prodigal son returns. |
Tostadosunidos, it's funny how that works. There was a point not real long ago where I was happy with a cheap Sharp receiver and cdp powering a set of AAL speakers. |
Alpha_gt, I know what you mean about people enjoying your music but not enough to get involved. I remember an instance back in the '70s when I had about thirty people sitting on the floor in my living room where the system was and listening to Simon and Garfinkel. Since then it is usually one local guy coming by or several audiophiles from around me in Texas. The former say "wow" and then leave.
Earlier there were no computers, no streaming or even personal systems with ear buds; now there are many entertainment items available. I must say, however, that many I knew long ago were not appreciative of realism in reproducing music. I build a good deal of my original systems using kits, but a pair of Infinity ServoStatic 1s put me on the slope to audiophildum. |
Yeah, it's not so appealing to just sit and listen anymore--back in the 70's, this was normal, though. Music on a system was a social event--music and party--sit around and listen. TV was not engaging--didn't look good then, not even with a VHS tape. Hi-def screens at home are an event now. No computers, no cell phones, no texting, no social media back then. Rotary-dial phone on a curly cord--from home. Back then, you went out to see a movie--then it looked good. Music was what you did at home on a regular basis, or call someone on the phone, but you had to sit there. People are more distracted these days--too many options--this even bugs me--I sit and listen to my system, but have my laptop in front of me for FB, etc. Have to fold the screen down to really listen, then it comes up again, etc. |
Home audio is like photography. Put an even modest camera in the hands of a good photographer and great photos result. Same true with home audio. In the end it's the skills of the user that determine the results. Most results will be average but many can and will be quite excellent even on a modest budget with less than sota gear. |
Mapman, as usual this is again your argument. But this time I question the logic. First of all I could see the argument that were one to put a modest camera in the hands of a "good" photographer "great" photos result. I would say yes in the hand of a great photographer. Am I missing something here?
But the "skills" of the user determine the results. What is among the skills"? Good ears? Reading the specks? Knowing a good manufacturer? Is the same true that a good movie is determined by the user? Are there no better sounding units?
I think that a good chef tends to have good foods, but most do favor a good source for their meat, veggies, wine, etc.
Finally, are you skilled? |
Tbg not sure what needs explaining. Assuming high standards to start not all achieve results to their satisfaction as fast or easily. That's pretty much how all of life works. Ability to learn and apply knowledge is probably the most important ingredient in any endeavor.
I'm better now than I have ever been prior I think. So I'm making progress. I have been mostly satisfied with how my stuff sounds now for a few years. That has not always been the case in the past. I've learned a lot from others on this site in recent years.
How about you? |
Mapman, sorry I don't understand what you are saying in this post. |
I'm not getting it either but we know that people don't like the same things. Maybe the question should read: "How do we get more people interested in audio".
Anyway it is hard to imagine any Audiophile being completely satisfied with their current system yet few state they are. Maybe the ones that have spent years of trial and error have reached this point and or have accumulated enough knowledgeable to finally reach their objectives.
On an earlier post Oregopapa mentions that some people live a shallow life because their homes lack books and music, I agree, it could be they are extremely busy or they truly are shallow, in fact these same people don't even know their alive. Music is the universal language, a proverbial time machine but more importantly it is relaxing and enjoyable. Coming home to a good system is like finding an oasis in a vast desert. |
Phd,
Are you really a Phd?, I ask because you wrote their instead of they're. |
"So I think there are three types of audiophiles. Stage I is loving music and replacing hearing it live with cheap audio equipment. Stage II is loving music that is well reproduced. And Stage III is great reproduction and realism."
Tbg, that post of your's back on 2-9 really rung a bell with me as it in some ways mirrors my own evolution. However your 3 stages of audiophiles given above does not include ALL types of "audiophiles". I know PLENTY of audiophiles that have a rudimentary level of music knowledge and limited musical tastes and seem more focused on sound reproduction than music itself. Many of these guys spend an inordinate amount of time on a sound that is pleasing to them. Many of these guys also gravitate towards the quality of recordings OVER music content. Some of these guys know much less about music than many music loving friends and family members that are NOT audiophiles nor have any aspirations of becoming one. One of the first questions I generally get from them is "how much did this cost you?" These music lovers ARE aware of well reproduced audio equipment but have neither the time, space, finances or ultimately interest to pursue it. For them they can enjoy from a simple playback system as well. What got ME into it was the complete lack of satisfaction of symphonic music through my receiver, tt and modest speakers which had changed over a period of 20 years as a teenager to the time I discovered, as did you, well reproduced. When you see a live performance by a world class orchestra it is very humbling coming home and listening to music that gets very little close to what you just experienced.
The issue of the Stage III audiophile is interesting. I have found myself limited to Stage II for the simple fact that #1 I don't have the resources, space or committment to pursue it and most importantly #2 While it might be a worthy goal to try and capture the intangable elements that separate live music from reproduced, I have yet to hear a system to date that actually does that or quite honestly even approaches it. The bigger, the greater the resolution, the deeper the bass the MORE of everything just highlights, too often to me, the absolute importance of the recording so as to not be distracted by the shortcomings of the whole. Then there is the actual experience of a live performance over reproduced. What is most important to me is getting closer to the music itself, set-up, vibration isolation, power etc., maybe Mapman's point, without sweating on making it sound live, spoken like a true Stage II audiophile I suppose. I certainly admire your goals and would love to hear your system, particularly since you are passionate about symphonic music and are seriously attempting to recreate it in your home. You and those like you have my deepest respect and admiration. |
Roxy54, thank you for pointing out my typo and after rereading my post I have come to the conclusion you only got it partially right. There are two other errors. I misspelled Oreagonpapa user name and used the word knowledgeable instead of knowledge, I feel ashamed but at least you know my responses came from a person and were not computer generated. |
Tubegroover, I think my career as a professor living in college communities best explains our somewhat different perspectives. The auditorium at my university where I taught for 32 years is positively awful. The university chose to use absorbent material all around the audience seating area and to use speakers to rebroadcast the music from the stage after going through an echo chamber. Furthermore the sides of the stage have broad panels of fluted concrete running floor to ceiling. I have found the only good seats are second row center so all you hear is near field.
I used to go to Chicago's loop often and sought ticket to hear performances there. This is my total experience with quality orchestral works. I also taught briefly in London and heard great performance there.
My other passion is jazz, and for this I have personal experiences over the years, but I long for hearing the old guys at their best.
So I went to Stage III to hear what I've missed. I must say that my guest has been rewarded best the last five years. It is very fragile. When all is right the involvement in the music, the emotion of the performers, and the thrill of realism, frequently cause me to want to jump up and yell bravo!
I should also say that reviewing causes me to often lose these experiences until my reference system settles down.
I appreciate your kind words as well as shared experiences. Thankfully my hearing is still quite good. |
Actually, to be completely fair, the sentence should have read,
"Anyway it is hard to imagine any Audiophile being completely satisfied with his current system yet few state they are."
Cheers! |
