Phd, look for a reviewer whose first name is Norm on StereoTimes and email me through the email address there. |
I certainly have known audiophiles who were into impressing people with their equipment and its makers. One such physician lived down the street. He and his wife dropped in one day. After listening she said, "Honey, this sounds like music." He said nothing and they left.
Later a package of mine was wrongly delivered to his address. I went down to get it. He invited me in to SEE his system. I did and took my package home without one peep of music being played.
On the other hand, I just heard a fairly expensive system in a million dollar room. All I can say is that it is the best reproduced music I have ever heard. The speakers were a known brand, but little else is widely known.
I really don't know what the issue is here. The original post asks why many want the best of everything save audio gear, but it has evolved to why anyone would want expensive and poor sounding gear.
I think the answer to the original question is the competition of other "things," such as golf clubs, cars, private schools and colleges, face lifts, etc., and computer games and other amusements. |
There are many passions that engage people. Why don't you collect old sewing machines or spend time on blogs? |
Given the lack of fidelity in many, or even most, pop music today, high fidelity probably worsens the experience of listening. Also, so many other ways to spend your leisure hours are now available.
It matters little to me as my grandchildren do appreciate high fidelity and have taken up musical instruments. |
Different strokes for different folks. |
I think all of the last several posts are on target, namely that people have different tastes and passions. I guess this gets back to the question of why fewer are involved in high end audio reproduction. I expect several things are going on. One we are now a much older average age population now. Two, there are many other passions available now, such as video, gaming, digital picture and video taking, and involvement in social media.
I have two stories. Long ago I had a famous pianist friend and while at his house, I asked what his stereo system was like. He showed me a Webcor portable record player in his office. Seeing my amazement, he said he only listened for the performer's interpretation, not the music, which was all in his head.
Second story, my 16 year old grandson was listening to Pinky Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon on his Ipod. I heard it and asked him to come to my listening room where I played the record. He said it did not even sound like the same recording and was wowed. He asked if I had a drum record (he plays drums in a jazz group), I played one. And he exclaimed, that this was closer to what he heard when he played, but still wasn't there. After a while he left with his ear buds back in and playing music.
Different strokes for different folks. But I should say that he is now interested in having better speakers and audio in his room. |
Mapman, be happy and enjoy. And you certainly are doing your best to fulfill public indifference to audio. |
Mapman, but I know many of them. They tend to not be "technical" in the university sense of the word, but rather military or self trained. |
Phaelon, The Bugatti is a total package not parts you put together. At a time when I first started in audio, there were few manufacturers, so you had a Dyna, Heath, Marantz, etc. system or at least their electronics. Also, what do you "not outperformed by a Porsche? In mileage, it might be.
I think it is just a matter of what else you might spend your money and time on. I had receivers and speakers, no television, no computer, only a land line with long distance charges, no earbuds or Iphones, and I was poor. With today's youth, there is time only to text. |
Years ago when I first went high end. I had three ARC pieces (SP-3, Dual 51, and Dual 75A, a Linn LP12, and a Charlie the Tuner. The sat on their own feet on wooden cabinet shelves and were plugged into a power strip and into the wall. Ics were cheap and the speaker wire was heavy gauge lighting wire. There were perhaps six other guys in town with pretty comparable systems in a town of about 50k and three dealers. Many people had speakers and a receiver and the local dealers sold them. I see many of these systems still in use by friends of my age. Most of these friends don't have home theater systems or even big HD tvs. They are the old amusement style families. I still maintain that in part it is other amusements, but also is the expense of vibration isolation, electrical power, and high quality wires. This is not to say that our sound today isn't far better than long ago, but all that stuff has to be bought and is hard to hide and has low WAF.
If you took away HD large screens, BlueRay, Iphones, Ipads, MP3 noise, etc., you would end up with bored people not more receptive to quality audio. |
Raytheprinter, was he serious? Even when I first got into audio in the late '50s $300 would not have bought a system or even kits to make one. |
Yes, as has been said several times, there are many more distractions now. |
In the early '80s I first saw the internet used for the first time. Being a professor soon I had the ability to use it to communicate with colleagues in other colleges. Then I got the ability to use dial up at home. Then one could buy a tiny music storage device with earbuds. Also coming along we computer games and cellphones.
Audio is relaxing, which is the last thing the present culture encourages. Swinfrey and Scott W, you both seem ill-adjusted to contemporary culture. I have been at reproducing music at home since the early 1960s. I know that my culture is now passe and soon will be the case for the baby boomers. I remember when television first came and when I first saw a football gave involving the Chicago Bears versus ? Football used to be less import than basketball and certain baseball.
Scott w, women have always been far less common among audiophiles. Presently I know one and over the years have known of perhaps twenty. I have always asked women audiophiles how they got involved. An audiophile father is often the reason.
I |
Scott_w, after Audiogon wiped out my system the second time, I gave up on showing it. |
Scott_w, my posting of my appeal for welding connections showing up as my system is an example of Audiogon screw-ups. |
I think there are multiple types of audiophiles. Certainly when I first got into music reproduction and later into stereo, I was more of a poor guy who loved jazz and much classical music. In undergraduate school in Chicago with WFMT being a local station, I had great classical music. I could go to several jazz clubs when I had any money. I would have to say that I was mainly a music lover. But going to graduate school and remaining poor changed that. I had to gain my own sources for good music, namely records and had to get components that were cheap, I built Heathkits and Dyna units. When money came more ample, I sought better gear.
One day walking past an audio store, I heard wonderous music and went in. There I heard the Infinity ServoStatics driven by ARC tube equipment. I bought no part of my system because of looks and I lived with the Servos for five years. I even sought the ServoStatic 1As and once got close to buying them, but that is not my story now.
Clearly I was on a quest for realism. This got to be very troublesome when I taught on Long Island and earlier at UCLA. All sorts of exotic equipment was around. But I really didn't get ahead in my quest. Music was serving an important role at that time as I worked toward tenure. I was a music lover audiophile. But I sought a full frequency response for playing symphonic reproduction. I also learned to again love tube sound.
Then perhaps four or five years ago, I heard examples of good music where the performance sounded real! I think once you have experienced this, a music lover realizes that he or she can experience great performances. This has become an abiding interest of mine.
So I think there are three types of audiophiles. Stage I is loving music and replacing hearing it live with cheap audio equipment. Stage II is loving music that is well reproduced. And Stage III is great reproduction and realism. |
Phd, given my experience with the top High Fidelity Cables and power cords and with the Tripoint Troy Signature and their Thor SE cables, this has been very expensive for me. But I also remember that long ago the H-Cat preamp and amp gave a very nice holographic image. I still have both in my system in NM. They may be coming back into business, but time will tell.
I should add that I am not saying that the H-Cat was the equal to what I'm getting today, but it did start me thinking that vocalists and musicians were in the room with me. Now, however, outside my listening room with a recording of a piano, sounds convincingly like the real thing.
What is striking is that cables, power cords, grounding units now represent more than half of the cost of my system! I must say that last night was thrilling. I don't know where you live but if you are in or near Texas, or if you ever want to drive up from a Houston airport, come on by an experience this. |
Schubert, obviously you have never been to a live concert or heard a jazz trio live. Basically, I know full well that you lie. |
Schubert, Okay what is in this miracle $10,000 system you say you can whip up? |
Mapman,
It has alway been expensive and most of us have started off knowing very little. I bought my first system when I was making $99/week and it was a cost me just over $800 or 15% of my yearly salary. Much later I bought the Infinity ServoStatics, two ARC stereo amps, and the SP3 for a combined total of $3000 when I was making $15,000 or 20% of my yearly salary. This time was worse as my nurse wife wasn't working while we had young children.
What is worse now, however, is the low standards that youth now has about music and how needy they are of having constant contact and music. We had no smart phones, internet, music everywhere, even outside elevators (meaning that they don't know what elevator music is). I'm not saying that we had it better, but we did have it different. |
I doubt if cheaper high end would make much difference. Make something that you can sell for $50,000 and sell ten of and live off that. |
Geoffkait, with 42% of all wealth concentrated in 1% of the top wealthy, they are the ones with discretionary money to buy equipment. I am not worried about the need for prices to be reduced, I am worried about the impact of the loss of the middle-class. There is not much reason for them to support government. |
I think this thread has gotten around to the real point that hearing realistic reproduction of music and the thrill of classic performances entails more than bookshelf speakers and a receiver sitting in one corner of your living room.
I started this hobby while in college and stayed low key through graduate school, two kids growing up, many moves, and a wife that went from being a nurse to a top hospital administrator. With the kids gone, she announced that she did not want her living room being a "laboratory." We moved into a house with a big game room, which became my man cave.
Now I have mono blocks, both vinyl and digital quality sources, 200 pound speakers, room treatments, quality cabling, using magnetics, vibration control, thousands of records, cds, scads, etc. I seldom watch anything other than NOVA, some college football and basketball games, a few other PBS programs, and morning news programs while I am either not in the room or engaged in Yoga.
Occasionally, a non-audiophile friend asks to hear my system or I demonstrate it for grandkids. Response is mainly, "it sounds real." And I can see they are ready to move on. In the past my kids while they were young would ask that my music be playing when they went to sleep.
Oh, and I have achieved incredible realism in my music. I'm happy. |
Czarivey, I've been there and know what you are saying, But realism may not be achieved with in expense equipment, but I'm not saying, in the least, that if it is not quite expensive it cannot be good. I've certainly heard many very expensive pieces that I wouldn't pay one tenth of their price to own. One does need some flexibility in what one can afford. |
Alpha_gt, I know what you mean about people enjoying your music but not enough to get involved. I remember an instance back in the '70s when I had about thirty people sitting on the floor in my living room where the system was and listening to Simon and Garfinkel. Since then it is usually one local guy coming by or several audiophiles from around me in Texas. The former say "wow" and then leave.
Earlier there were no computers, no streaming or even personal systems with ear buds; now there are many entertainment items available. I must say, however, that many I knew long ago were not appreciative of realism in reproducing music. I build a good deal of my original systems using kits, but a pair of Infinity ServoStatic 1s put me on the slope to audiophildum. |
Mapman, as usual this is again your argument. But this time I question the logic. First of all I could see the argument that were one to put a modest camera in the hands of a "good" photographer "great" photos result. I would say yes in the hand of a great photographer. Am I missing something here?
But the "skills" of the user determine the results. What is among the skills"? Good ears? Reading the specks? Knowing a good manufacturer? Is the same true that a good movie is determined by the user? Are there no better sounding units?
I think that a good chef tends to have good foods, but most do favor a good source for their meat, veggies, wine, etc.
Finally, are you skilled? |
Mapman, sorry I don't understand what you are saying in this post. |
Tubegroover, I think my career as a professor living in college communities best explains our somewhat different perspectives. The auditorium at my university where I taught for 32 years is positively awful. The university chose to use absorbent material all around the audience seating area and to use speakers to rebroadcast the music from the stage after going through an echo chamber. Furthermore the sides of the stage have broad panels of fluted concrete running floor to ceiling. I have found the only good seats are second row center so all you hear is near field.
I used to go to Chicago's loop often and sought ticket to hear performances there. This is my total experience with quality orchestral works. I also taught briefly in London and heard great performance there.
My other passion is jazz, and for this I have personal experiences over the years, but I long for hearing the old guys at their best.
So I went to Stage III to hear what I've missed. I must say that my guest has been rewarded best the last five years. It is very fragile. When all is right the involvement in the music, the emotion of the performers, and the thrill of realism, frequently cause me to want to jump up and yell bravo!
I should also say that reviewing causes me to often lose these experiences until my reference system settles down.
I appreciate your kind words as well as shared experiences. Thankfully my hearing is still quite good. |
