Can anyone explain why high end audio seems to be forever stuck as a cottage industry? Why do my rich friends who absolutely have to have the BEST of everything and wouldn't be caught dead without expensive clothes, watch, car, home, furniture etc. settle for cheap mass produced components stuck away in a closet somewhere? I can hardly afford to go out to dinner, but I wouldn't dream of spending any less on audio or music.
Hey little soulgoober, the first taste is free.....! Just kidding, some better equipment will enhance your enjoyment of music. Certainly nothing wrong with that. There's a lot worse stuff to spend your money on. Certainly, you can spend a fortune if you can or want to but it's not absolutely necessary. The absolute cutting edge state of the art (as in most things) is very expensive but a lot of musical enjoyment can be had without going that far.
I do part-time work for a computer audio lab at my local University and am astonished to find my colleagues, and even my professor, have no idea about high-end audio reproduction or just don't seem to care.
I too was young when I heard my first audiophile system and I've been hooked ever since. There's something incredibly therapeutic about being able to sit for hours on end listening to your favorite music, sipping on a cognac, and not once having the urge to crank the volume or go and do something else. I'm sure if more people were exposed to the aural pleasures of high end audio, they'd be hooked as well.
What it comes down to is convenience, exposure and of course, cost. Most people want something to listen to while riding on the bus or doing the dishes. I found it amusing how people used to brag about the convenience of their 100+ multidisc cd players without once questioning how WELL the disc's played. Or later the convenience of the MP3 and how the mid-fi magazines toughted them as "near cd-quality" at a fraction of the size. Now we're able to conveniently store our entire collection of music onto a tiny player and carry it around wherever we go at the sacrifice of quality...and no one seems to care except for us audiophiles who have seen the light.
A lot of people love music, but simply do not listen critically to the quality of the playback. As audiophiles, we require the best quality playback - within our budgets - to enhance our enjoyment of the music and assembling our playback equipment is part of the enjoyment. It's a hobby for us. Most, however, can get the same enjoyment from music by listening over a car radio or boombox. For example, I cannot understand why someone would buy a Rolex watch, when a $10 Timex does the same job. I can afford a Rolex, I just don't see the point.
Hitman, I like the "near CD quality" sticker! Figure, CD was hyped as "perfect sound, forever" so "near CD quality" must mean "almost perfect sound, for a long time". You gotta love marketing.
I think that most everybody has a driving passion that they sink their time and money into. Some, like golf, are realy mainstream. Others, like sailing are even more niched than audio. Asking why more people don't get into audio is sort of like asking why more people don't get into model trains: it's either in your blood or it's not.
Regarding audio as a status symbol, having a six or seven figure cinema room in your house is a pretty mainstream status symbol for people with high net worth. I know that's somewhat different from the original point about two-channel as a combination of hobby and status symbol, but I thought it fair to bring it up.
On the other hand, plenty of people as well off as those who spend six figures for their cinema opt to spend less than twenty thousand on their A/V rooms. It all comes down to individual priorities. I've met people who didn't even blink at spending fifty thousand on a waterfall in their foyer, but getting ten thousand out of them for a distributed audio system was like pulling teeth.
Wine is another one of those hobby/status things. While I adore expensive beer and spirits, I'm a total savage when it comes to wine. Anything over ten bucks a bottle is wasted on me. And yet, my stock single malts are all $100+, which some think is outrageous, but still isn't even the deep end of that hobby...
Enjoyed your post, Leedistad, but I don't agree with your point about asking this question being akin to asking why more people aren't into model trains. Playing back / listening to music is an almost universal experience, and the fact that such a vast percentage of the people who experience this never move beyond the cheap stereo / boombox / iPod playback approach is a bit bewildering to me.
I think this post has lived so long because you can look at the question so many different ways, but one version, and the one I'm using, is to question why, when almost every other pursuit (you mention several) has luxury versions that people pursue. So, I'm not wondering why more people don't pursue $10K preamps and the like, but a $1K-2K system built around Creek gear, or the Arcam Solo, or any of a number of other nice, lower-cost manufacturers, should have more market penetration than it does.
To put it another way, off the top of my head, I could name several acquaintances who are "into" wine, several who are into bikes, motorcycles, power boats, some who are into art, some who are into watches, many many who have invested in expensive video, and probably even a couple who are into model trains. But I almost fall off my chair when I come across somebody who has invested past the bare minimum on audio playback.
As you say, different strokes, but I still find it odd that so many people listen to music, but the acquisition of decent playback gear is just absent from most peoples' world.
certain expensive consumer goods are accepted as status symbols. cars, boats, jewelery, watches, paintings and antiques are some examples. while expensive audio gear has some appeal to wealthy persons, it does not compete with some of the aforementioned items. i guess, there is a popularity or collectible value associated with works of art, wine, watches and cars. audio equipment is a depreciating asset in comparison to others which increase in value.
to summarize, audio equipment is not a collectible item and the enjoyment of music can be attained from listening to $300 personal stereos. where is the incentive to spend more than $300, for most people ? by the way, i wouldn't lose sleep over the general lack of interest in the hobby. there is a certain satisfaction associated with being a contrarian, as far as taste is concerned.
That's a good point - many of the other pursuits carry the notion that the thing being purchased will appreciate in value. I think we're all subject to justifying to ourselves our purchases, and the notion that one is buying something that will appreciate in value reinforces the rightness of said purchase.
For myself, my rationalization is along the lines of that I use audio gear daily, extensively, and year-round. You either drink a bottle of wine and then it's gone, or you store it indefinitely - you don't use it over and over. In any case, it's funny how we can all come up with things to reinforce our own desired behavior.
Why is it a surprise that few people appreciate audio when so few have a deep appreciation, aesthetic gratification or understanding of music? It may be true that listening to music is a universal activity, but the vast majority of people do not listen to music as a primary activity...it is an accompaniment to dinner, conversation, an elevator ride or hurried walk through an airport terminal.
Second, most people have a musical attention span of about three minutes, thanks to radio and busy lives filled with careers, families and other activities. It is a foreign notion to many people to actually sit down and do nothing but concentrate on the composition, sound or content of a musical piece, especially one that lasts longer than a few minutes, much less to give thought to the structure, performance, production, etc of music. I recall, when I was younger, listening intently to music in my bedroom and my mother (a music teacher!) urging me to go outside and "do something with the day".
77jovian, you hit it, in a nice way as well. I would like to see some exposure to classical music, ballet & opera starting with the earliest grades. My first Opera exposure was Orpheus & the Underworld with my grade 5 class and it made a great impression with all of us as I remember. Action, danger, dynamic music; kids can dig that. Just one experience a year from ~ grade 5 on would enhance music appreciation considerably-and help save our orchestras as well,imho.
I visited the family of one of my daughter's friends to pick her up after playtime. Stone walls inside the house, multiple large fireplaces including bedrooms and kitchen, home theater resembling a small, luxury commercial venue. Dad, correctly and to his credit, first asked me if I'd like a beer. I answered in the obviously affirmative. He led me to a bar refrigerator stocked with cases of... Bud Light, Miller Lite, or Coors Light. Cavernous wine cellar empty. You tell me...
why is there such a concern with the thoughts and opinions of other people ? if you have an interest in something and someone else doesn't, why obsess about it ?
The concern, Mrtennis, is that high fidelity audio has become such a niche market that people are settling for sub-standard MP3 quality. Ergo, the CD market is dying and high fidelity will surely die along with it. Eventually no new music will be released on CD. Even engineering techniques have taken a turn for the worse. Check out "The Death of High Fidelity" in Rolling Stone's 2007 Yearbook issue.
Mrtennis: Coercion??? Who says we're trying to force people to love hifi? Are we jamming people's heads against a speaker and saying "this is what it's supposed to sound like now love it or else"?
Of course discussing it won't change anything. Listening will. If you have a hifi, invite friends, coworkers, family members, etc. to bring their favorite recordings over and have them listen to them on your system. Chances are most people won't take up the hobby, but some will. Word of mouth advertising doesn't work here, direct exposure does.
The title of this thread can be read two ways, but from his expanation, I get that Tucker is referring to the HOBBY of audio, as opposed to the SOUND quality of audio. OK, that's cool. However it's true (wouldn't everyone agree?) that it's always an encounter with the second that (sometimes) leads to the first.
Everyone (and I mean everyone of every age) has been thrilled on hearing my system. I think a person would have to be deaf, or in excruciating pain, NOT to be thrilled by the experience of hi end audio reproduction! In fact, the general public now thinks the name for it is: THX !
But whether or not someone would consider the actual acquisition of such equipment for themselves, has to do with their discretionary spending priorities which, besides the equipment cost, would have to include providing the space and setup personnel (if one is not articularly "hands on." Think Goldmund ;-) Nor is the hobby itself for those into instant gratification.
With all the stimulation/distraction available in today's consumer society, I'm amazed as many take an interest in this hobby as do!
Nsgarch, I went thru a house today and saw lots af cassettes and mentioned to the owner must like music;;- he said yes because there's nothing worth watching on tv. I think your sound comment is right on as most people never, ever get to hear high end music repro-so-how can they be interested.l
Wow, have things changed since this thread was posted! Music downloads have exploded and earbuds are now the hi-fi system of choice for the vast majority of people.
I am taking One To One private classes at my local Apple Store. Not one trainer I've talked to (out of at least 7 different ones) has any idea about high resolution downloads, DACs being used with my MacBook Pro, etc. Every one of them stares at me blankly when I bring up the subject. I even read through a A'gon thread about using a Mac as source and how to get better sound quality. The two Apple people had no idea what anything in the thread was about.
Only one employee at the Apple Store knew that higher resolution downloads should result in better sounding tunes. Every other one of them said the only difference was the high res songs "just take up more storage space".
I've also noticed (at least ALL of my nieces and nephews) that most young people don't "listen" to music. They listen to MTV sized sound bites from songs, and if the only thing they are doing is listening to an iPod they are constantly scrolling through one song after another. A nephew once asked me if I "just sit and listen to music". I said yes, he stared at me like I was from Atlantis
I had exposure to high-end audio at an early age and it has stayed with me all these years. I believe if you are not exposed to it when you are young more than likely you will never get into it. Most of the hobbies I grew up with as a kid are still my hobbies today. I still collect coins and race my slots cars on occasion. The kids growing up today really have no interest in high-end audio. It's unfortunate but when my generation enters retirement age you can kiss high-end audio bye-bye.
Because to a large extent, hi-end audio does not give the customer what they want. Hi-end audio expects people to conform to THEM, not the other way around. You will never get much business with that attitude.
Why don't more people build their own custom computers, slap gigantic heatsinks on the processors, and then tweak the bios settings to make the processor run 1000Mhz faster than it is rated for? You can you know!
Why don't more people enjoy fine wine, or jazz or classical music?
You've asked a question that is almost impossible to answer, but I would speculate as follows.
I. High-information costs
The costs of acquiring, processing, and using information related to component selection are high. It is easy to compare a Pioneer Elite Plasma display to a Sony LCD. It is not so easy to compare two preamps.
II. Lack of awareness
A lot of people don't know this stuff exists.
III. Price
Most people can't afford, or don't want to spend that much.
I think part of the problem with the hobby is that people spend too much time on the gear and not enough time on the actual listening experience and the music.
If you really want to impress someone with your system, put something on that they like and that you know sounds good. When I want to really show off I put Bob Marley's Legend on. I once had a party in a dorm room and I put that album on my B&W speakers and I got compliments on the sound by college girls, of all people. Make your own demo CD for when friends come over.
The problem is that there aren't many compact discs that can hold up under the scrutiny of a high end system without some very sophisticated filtering or upsampling. Not recordings, compact discs. I did not realize this until I heard some of the dCS upsampling gear, which upsamples to DSD and remedies a lot of bad CDs.
If you want to impress the uninitiated, you need a system that you can play really, really loud without becoming distorted or irritating. I think as audiophiles we take for granted the ability to reproduce music accurately at high volume levels, but this is one of the main areas where an audiophile grade system will just kill an off the shelf bose or iPod. Find some music that sounds good really loud and play it.
I don't think it is unreasonable to want share the audio hobby with others, or at least to have the time and effort you put into building a system acknowledged by friends.
In my experience, however, most people even after hearing an awesome system don't even inquire about it. On the other hand, I have had a delivery driver from a chinese restaurant practically force his way into my apartment because he caught a glimpse of my speakers and just had to find out more.
There are so many barriers to entry to this hobby that it is amazing there are as many audio products as there are.
I think we can break music lovers down into a number of groups. I don't know how many, but I'll figure that out as I type, hopefully it will make sense once I'm through. I feel there's a finite number of people that are predisposed to become audiophiles. Now whether or not that happens is based a couple of factors. Some may just have an innate desire to pursue possess music in its ultimate form, be it going to as many concerts as possible, or having the best audio gear (money permitting) at home, on the road etc. I believe some of these people need an external factor to prod, suggest, coax, entice, or in some cases enrapture them to go in the right direction. Therefore, they are dependent on their environment, and their audiophilia may rest dormant throughout their lives. Then there are those that i consider absolute audiophiles, who were destined to be. They probably can't remember themselves as ever not being. They always wanted their music to sound the best. They may probably think someone or something influenced them, but it was always the good music in its purest obtainable form in their lives. Outside of this group, I feel there is another group within the audiophile realm who are audiophiles simply because they demand the finest and want the best experience in different realms in life. I feel I fall into that category, no one got me into this hobby/lifestyle/religion?/money pit, I just wanted a better pair of computer speakers, got klipsch promedias, wanted better headphones went from logitech xxxx to sennheiser hd 580's, found out they could run better, got headphone amp, Got B$W speakers, got Pioneer receiver, sold it got Rotel amp, got preamp, got cd player, will sell x, will get DAC, plan to sell amp,......As time went on and things sounded better I began to love music more than I thought I could, or was permissible...WOW. Now there are people who probably love music more than I do (If that's possible, but only need to hear it to love it,...SIMPLE. They will love yours when they hear it, but they don't necessarily need to hear it that way all the time for it so sound complete thereafter.
What we should be worried about are those who have that innate audiophile locked up in them, who will eventually pass through this life without unlocking it, and finally expire. They need the external stimuli, which is becoming less and less available in this day and age, like many have pointed out here.
Another question is, are the numbers of those predisposed to turn into audiophiles, given the right stimuli or spark, dwindling? We can never test that. We cannot force others to be. What is blatantly obvious is that the lack of exposure of kids to more accomplished forms of music, be it in performance or reproduction, and the non-existence of a prominent culture of accepted audiophilia will only further serve to reduce our numbers
there is a disnction between music and sound. music is everywhere, varying in sound quality. enjoying music does not require an expensive stereo system. many forget that people enjoyed music via the most basic , i.e., low fidelity media, in the past and perhaps in the present.
you will not convince them that you enjoy your music because you have an expensive stereo. the same people may not enjoy their music more on your expesnive stereo system, although they may admit that your stereo system sounds better than their "personal stereo" purchased for say, 200 at best buy or circuit city.
in order to engender audiophilia, one must losee all elitist attitudes that one can't enjoy music on a poor sounding stereo system. do not be supercilious when relating to people who use i pods or walkman devices.
exposure is the best that one can do. lead the horse to water. if the horse wants to pursue the hobby, encourage the horse but don't criticize.
above all, realize the distinction between enjoying musical content and the "sound" of the music. they are separate issues for most people.
I think people are more into home theater and A/V gear because their more into the overall experience of watching a show or movie. There's just no visual experience to listening to a home Hi-Fi as opposed to live music. They don't know what to look at while listening to music and end up getting bored. To them, music is for the background while you do something else.
Us audiophiles really focus on the music and listen critically. We know about the music and what to listen for, we think about all spects of the sound- where the saxophone is relative to the piano on the soundstage, the attack and decay of the note, the sizzle of the cymbal, the sound of the stick on the snare drum, etc. I often imagine I'm in Birdland in the 1950s listening to Coltrane and his band live (a martini helps this experience).
In other words there is a cerebral and emotional experience that peaks our interests. For us it is not just the notes being played, but the pureness of the tone that has an emotional impact. That is why we could not possibly be satisfied with MP3 players for a real listening experience. This seems to be lost on the majority of the music listening public.
You won't see the average person doing real listening sessions because there is no cerebral connection and their mind starts to wander and they lose interest.
I have a laptop that has software called Gallery Player that plays a slide show of famous works of art and photographs on my big screen TV. You can do playlists like an iPod with it. I have set up different playlists of images for different types of music (for example, classic works of art while playing classical music or old B & W photographs of NYC with jazz). I find that playing this when people are at my house while the music is playing helps hold their interest.
There are those who have an innate drive to delve into subtle auditory exploration with imagination, and there are those who do not. They can be smart, creative, or complex, but if a person is not an 'audio explorer' then no amount of convincing can get them into it. I personally think it is hard wired in the brain.
The quality of sound is very important for me because I play acoustic piano.
Anyone who plays a musical instrument is much more likely to demand outstanding sound from an audio system.
Unfortunately relatively few people play because it requires lots of focus and discipline, and life offers so many other distractions. As with surfing the web, the next unreality is but a mouseclick away!
Merlinus, I'll bet before long, we'll be be able to buy a little Yarmulke with electodes that plug into your DAC's digital out; and with properly recorded discs, you'll be able to actually experience BEING Glenn Gould playing Bach, as you listen to "yourself" playing; or maybe Pavarroti singing Verde? Ya think??
I would guess that there are a lot of people who have the money for the best in audio but they do not want to put forth the effort to set-up and maintain a rocking system.
I think all people love audio. It's just that we all have different levels of enjoyment, expectations and priorities in our lives. Other wise even Ipods wouldn't be selling.
I believe the start of the downfall is 2 fold. When I was in high school, it seemed like every other kid could list their parents home components--right down to the stylus. Then, the walkman came out, and for the first time, convenience superceded fidelity. That was the start. As time went on, home cinema came into the picture which was the saving grace for many speaker comanies. One 5 ch reciever would be sold, and now the speaker companies sold 5 speakers and a sub instead of 2 speakers. The industry started to eat its own young with $199 home theater in a box--and that was the major downfall-For the everyday guy things were made too easy and too cheap.
Music has also changed. My humps, my humps, my lovely lady lumps got nominated for a grammy (WTF???) and then there is rap--enough said. I believe there are less people who care cause music was made too covenient, and we have a whole generation of people who dont know what musical instruments sound like, so why would they care what a stereo with 2 speakers sounds like.....I will go on record as suggesting there may be hope, as it seems to be getting trndy to have a turn table again and hopefully it may ignite the passion for some..........
As a near decade long thread I believe we can elevate this to the level of Frankenthread, it has taken on a life of it's own.
More people DO LOVE AUDIO and now more than ever before are falling into our beloved hobby, poor bastards. How did it happen? Because they downloaded every music file in sight and when reviewing their ill gained booty they realized that each music file had a certain individual sonic quality. Some good some bad some extraordinarily good. This led them towards the first step, they upgraded their ear buds. And before anyone dismisses ear buds as a viable step towards audiophileism I would admonish them to audition a set of $500 and up ear buds. I own a couple of sets and my best set of SUREs are damn near as good as my GRADO SR325s.
Now we have to all agree here that the path that leads an individual into this sickness we all share differs for everyone. It only takes a small step to fall off the cliff and more people are taking that small step than ever before. Headphones have ALWAYS been the poor man's way into High End (pun intended). A great source fed into a quality headphone amp can be a step towards a life on this merry go round we all ride.
And while we are at it don't discount the effect of kids downloading and listening to a HUGE variety of music. It's going to make a difference. Will it translate into people developing a greater understanding of higher quality audio components? Who knows? But when there is interest there usually is movement. It might just be that the movement is in the direction of computers streaming FLAC files through quality DACs into headphone amps and then into $2000+ headphones or ear buds. I can't say which direction this hobby will turn but it WILL TURN and probably in a direction that will surprise us all.
And yes I'll still be clinging to my tube gear and my vinyl, watching, drooling, and planning that next perfect purchase that will finally bring me true sonic nirvana.....
I think basically because we are true music lovers, it doesn't matter if anyone ever hear, or see your system. People that drives flashy cars, wears expensive clothing not all, but some, do it for the show.
Given the lack of fidelity in many, or even most, pop music today, high fidelity probably worsens the experience of listening. Also, so many other ways to spend your leisure hours are now available.
It matters little to me as my grandchildren do appreciate high fidelity and have taken up musical instruments.
Why don't more people know the difference between freshly picked peaches, blueberries, rasberries, strawberries and grocery store bought. They just don't know any better.
A foodaphile knows there's a difference in taste and flaver between green, red, and yellow bell peppers. Not everyone does. Audiophiles are the same except with audio equipment.
Best peaches in the world grow right here in Palisade, Co. There's a local pride in this, of course, but this does not make it impossible to sell canned peaches in metal vessels and sugary syrup in out supermarkets. Some people actually prefer their peaches that way. I'm reminded of Americans who travel to Paris and choose to eat at McDonalds. Why in hell would they not want to experience the exquisite cuisine for which the French are world famous and which they cannot duplicate back home. I'll never understand. There's no accounting for taste. That said, it is likewise important for audiophiles to realize that what they have found in their hobby is tantamount to religion and, as such, is personal. Not everybody finds salvation in the same book. I live in Colorado and don't ski. To many that is like ignoring French cuisine when in Paris. Whatever! I love it here but I'm not much given to physical sports or downhill thrills. I know people who maintain as a personal goal hitting the slopes 50 times a season. Different strokes. Audiophiles need to loosen their grip on the absolute sound for a few minutes now and then and smell a few flowers. We have 5 senses at our disposal. Let's use them all and not worry about which sense others favor.
As probably has been said on here already, everyone enjoys some type of music, but not everyone "hears" it the same way. Basically, IMO, it comes down to an emotional connection to parts of a song that each listener relates to differently on an emotional level. Could be a certain instrument, a certain note, certain lyrics, combination of each, etc...?
My wife and myself are completely different. She would be just as happy (and has told me this) listening to a clock radio alarm clock! In fact, here's an example, the other day she told me that she DOES notice a difference of sound between my (I mean OUR...excuse me) $6,000 audio system, and my son's $20 clock/CD radio, but didn't say it was better, just different. I just shook my head. She told me that I "hear" different things in the music, that my ears must be better? I said, I don't think that's it at all, I think it's an appreciation for music on a deeper lever -- I don't recommend this comment, BTW!
I have noticed over the years that she tends to relate to the lyrics more than the instruments, where I am the exact opposite.
I have a slightly different take on this whole subject -- and I'd be interested in your thoughts. I do agree w/ Tennis and others that
a larger percentage of the population enjoy music than the the pursuit of "audio" as a hobby.
However, I'm stuck on what exactly Tennis (and others) mean by "audio" in this instance. For me at least, it all started (way back in the mid-fifties -- my Dad's hobby of course ;--) and what excited me then, as now, was -- not the music itself (don't get me wrong, I love music, and have my personal interests) -- but the sonic thrill of performance; or an acceptable (to me) facsimile of a real performance ;--)
That's what attracted me most about "audio" in the beginning, and it still does today. I call it "sonic stimulation". There are probably thousands of powerful stimuli to which we humans are drawn, and creating an illusion using sound (as opposed to "listening to music") is just one of them. I think that explains why so many people can thoroughly enjoy music without needing the stimulation of a "re-created realism" which a good audio system can provide.
I've been assembling gear/systems since my late teens around 1958. And like most of us, changed and changed and changed everything! Over and over! But eventually, got to the point (about twenty years ago) where I achieved the kind of realistic reproduced performance that I found convincing enough to "sonically stimulate" me ;--)) every time I used my system -- and very little ot the hardware has changed since then. .
And why don't more people love art? Because they cannot conceive that either can improve their lives. And they refuse to accept that such is possible. They are clods.
what about all the scientists with their phds and doctors who have no interest in art? they may be busy or have other interest. i think it's a bit harsh to cast aspersions.
regarding what audio means, i consider it the pursuit of equipment for the purpose of creating what one considers sonic excellenece.
such an endeavor may motivate a very small sample of the population.
as i have said, it is a matter of priorities. music may not be as important as some other pursuit.
perhaps there are many who don't ascribe to collecting, wanting to live a simpler existence, not wanting to be tied to things, or having no interest in owning material goods.
perhaps younger people are less materialistic , e.g., conspicuous consumption, than people over 40.
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