why do people feel the need to buy expensive cable
I have tried expensive cables and one's moderately priced. I would say there were some differences but I can't actually say the expensive cables were better. IMHO I believe a lot of people buy expensive cables because they don't actual trust their ears and are afraid of making a mistake. They figure the expensive cables are better for the fact they cost more. If you have a difference of opinion or share the same thoughts, I would like to hear about it.
"
Someone needs to use the Yellow Pages to find your local consumer
protection agency representative. I’m sure he will help you mount a
lawsuit against all these scam artists. Bad scam artist! Bad! Let us
know how that works out. Also, try getting a hold of NASA Nd see if they
have time to do some testing for you. Report back your results." - geoffkait
I don't need anyone to test for me. I have a full bench of spectrum analyzers, signal generators, multi trace scopes, and a very reliable Earthworks mic that I use on a daily basis. Digital technology exploded a lot of myths. Now that it is fairly cheap and accessible, only those who actively choose to bury their heads in the sand will succumb to foolish arguments involving so called "audible improvements" that can't be measured or tested for. My microphone can pick up low frequency grumbling of a truck approaching a quarter mile away and display it on my software recording dashboard about 20 seconds before it's loud enough for me ti audibly detect. I see evidence of this every day and don't needs anyone's "veils have been lifted" hype to tell me if there's a difference. And no neither NASA nor the BBB are necessary. All that's needed is a little common sense and a mind that's open to accept science and the scientific method.
Someone needs to use the Yellow Pages to find his local consumer protection agency representative. I’m sure he’ll help you mount a nice big lawsuit against all these scam artists. Bad scam artist! Bad! Let us know how that works out. Also, try getting a hold of NASA to see if they have time to do some testing for you. Report back your results.
There are two very easy ways to debunk outrageous cable, "power conditioner", "isolator", "speaker cable suspender", "special capacitor", and "special resistor" claims:
1) Measure the electrical and acoustical signals with the allegedly improved "product" versus without. It's the year 2018 folks. We now have cheap devices that detect all aspects of sound (phase, pressure, frequency) at a level that is orders of magnitude better than average human hearing. What once cost tens of thousands of dollars in testing equipment can practically be obtained for several hundred with a high performance laptop, high quality calibrated microphone, and audio test suite freeware.
2) Research the backgrounds of the individuals who own and run the companies that are peddling "special resistors", "speaker cable suspenders" and the like. I've been observing this scam for nearly 4 decades and every single "manufacturer" of said products I've looked into is run by con artists and fast talking salesmen/women. Just like there are tons of con artists peddling miracle health cures, there are and unfortunately probably always will be con artists selling magic cables and capacitors that some how fix everything that is wrong with your audiofool system.
Two of the speakers I used to own are internally wired with Supra Ply. I tried Supra Ply SCs and the sound was okay. Using different SCs sounded better. It's not always the case that what's used inside a speaker is good enough for use as SCs.
it’s a bit like the reverse of taking the position that using good power cables is sensless when there is romex in the wall
However - the wires inside the box are generally individual conductors and not subject to RFI/EMI to the same levels as many speaker cables
From that perspective the individual conductors will convey the signal more effectively. So very often they are far from the weakest link
But you really need to assess what is on the inside before making any judgement.
Old speakers do tend to have very poor wiring in them so it is well worth replacing the wire, whereas newer speakers tend to have pretty good wire in them.
Does it hurt to upgrade - no. Is it really required? - only if you feel the need to scratch that particular "ITCH" Will you benefit? - probably - if you know what you are doing
Binding Posts are probably of more concern and in many cases, they should be replaced - so while you have the wiring exposed - change it - i.e. if needed
Jenner1 seems to have a good point. If the wire in the speaker cabinet is not as good as the the wire from the amp, seems like a waste. I have Revel Salon 2's and I'm sure the internal wiring is is very good, but I really don't know exactly what it is. I don't think it would be very effective to run super, high end cables (external) into good but not high end wiring (internal). Weakest link may be in the box.
@joeylawn36111 you are right when you have a certain kind of gear they make more of a difference. I agree you should spend on components first. I have a great Dac and a tubed CD player. I’m injoying it all the best I can. I’m through chasing cables. I have some that I’m happy with and they get the job done. My dream source would be a soulutions player to be honest with you. It’s the most natural analog sounding player with detail I have ever heard in my life! Smooth natural with no listening fatigue.
Calvinj - I agree it can make a difference, but most likely only on quality systems like yours ;)* My gear is mainly "mid-fi" stuff.
I think one can acknowledge that some technologies are better, for example, vinyl being superior to digital/tubes to transistors, etc., but Choose not to go that route for other reasons.
I like listening to music also, but I also have another related part to this hobby. I also dabble in modifying stereo gear, and am also a collector of stereo electronics I like. I'd rather spend my $'s on 'gear' than wire, for example.
“Proper copper” is all you need to pass the signal along...with all the noise present and intact. Transparent cable will remove it and lower the noise floor dramatically. Everything else is just cable!
Before you spend crazy money on cables this is what you do first:
Open up your speakers and check the wires that connect the binding posts or the crossovers to the speakers inside. 95% of the time it's cheap no name, no brand, nothing special, basic copper wires inside the enclosure before it reaches the woofer or tweeter.
I bought my reference MIT cables based on home audition in my system. I just didn’t want to be without them as the detail, nuance and dynamics were all incredibly improved for my Spectral gear. It was a no brainer. Costly but a very enjoyable improvement in everyday living.
Chris IS a Shaman for sure but offers only more of the same variations I mentioned earlier. Some designs sound brighter, some emphasize bass or midrange etc..
Well, I’ve heard and owned a lot of these designs and they are mostly variations on a theme within a narrow band of performance criteria. Cable Du jour if you will. Wire is wire no matter if it’s in a tuxedo or Goodwill attire. The range of what sounds “good” to any given human is as variable as our genetic makeup. So...it’s silly and of little value to argue over the minutia between wire manufacturers unless something exceptional is being offered that can actually enhance the listening experience across a broad range of fellow music lovers. But alas, we are not wired for consensus or even happiness it seems. We prefer to argue, disagree and dissect that which may even have only the subtlest of differences when we could be discussing great music and it’s importance to our lives. Granted, that is for another post, but the music we listen to is probably indicative of the type of equipment we use.
A forum that involves discussions with countering viewpoints is just that - not an "argument." And please ...why do you think you are of such stature in this field or on this forum that you can tell us to "stop" having this discussion?
dave_b (I agree that) most cables are of a similar design and can be had fairly inexpensively.
That’s a patently false statement. There are solid core cables, there are stranded core cable. There are cables that have hollow conductors. There are cables with multiple solid core conductors. There are cables with air dielectric, cables with Teflon dielectric, cables with polypropylene dielectric. There are cables as thin as a human hair. There are 10 ga cables. There are silver cables, copper cables, liquid cables, carbon cables, graphene cables, cryod cables. There are cables that use single crystal copper. There are cables that use ultra pure copper. There are cables that use some gold mixed in with the silver. There are shielded and unshielded cables. There are cables that are controlled for directionality and cables that aren’t. Some cables have carbon fiber sleeves.
I agree that most cables are of a similar design and can be had fairly inexpensively. However, Transparent and MIT cables are demonstrably superior at creating a lifelike reproduction of the music. They offer a broad range of products for both the audiophile on a budget to the no holds barred crowd! Choices are great these days, solutions abound for all types of audio enthusiasts...enjoy and stop arguing over which is thee best for everyone.
Of those things mentioned by pokee1016, cables are least likely to make an improvement is audio quality...assuming good quality (proper length and resistance) cables are already being used. Basic, good quality cables are not expensive.
You have to see what a system can do first and that's down to the details. Placement, the room, speaker stands, cabling, power. All these things can sometimes make a system sound ten times better than it did because they were overlooked.
Quality cables are a must if you want to get the best out of your system. I've known people who upgraded their speakers or other components before upgrading the cabling in their system. At the very least, get cables that can make your system perform and you don't have to go broke. Belden 8402 mic cable is a good place to start cheap. Kimber also has inexpensive cables that are solid. High end systems need cables that will bring out the most, that's the only reason to spend big bucks on cables.
I see cables priced well beyond what I've paid for my system. As a guy that has jammed cigarette butts into my ears due to lack of earplugs running a 120lb jackhammer I can honestly say, I'll never hear the difference.
Way more scientific than Joe Schmoe switching from $200 RCA connects to $1000 connects and reporting that the improvement was "awesome and unbelievable" and "the bottom end clarity was breathtakingly better."
I have a higher end sound system (McIntosh and Revel Salon 2's). I had a bunch of friends come over and they all brought various speaker cables. High priced down to cheap junk. Fairly scientific, no beer until the test was complete. We did blind testing. We really embarrassed ourselves. A dozen cables from $50 to $1000 and we were all over the board. All I'm saying is perhaps you should test several cables prior to purchasing. You may be surprised at what you don't hear.
....and even had your fraudulent representations deleted by the forums thoughtful and purposeful moderator's....
I do recall a number of your threads were also deleted.
As to fraudulence, I look at a bit differently. As soon as I mentioned my rationale for wanting to skype - because seeing and hearing you lends credibility to the authenticity of your interest - and that it is a possibility you are merely a 14 year old school girl without the financial means and/or legal authority to enter into any agreement - did I validate your insincerity.
“Because their "feeling" morphs into a non demonstrable "belief.”
Actually it’s quite the opposite. As fate would have it gdhal has sort of become the poster boy for the Backfire Effect. What is the Backfire Effect, you ask? The Backfire Effect is the phenomenon that occurs in a heated debate when a person refuses to listen to ANY argument but instead clings more strongly to his beliefs in the face of contradictory evidence. In fact he won’t even wait for the blind test he so vehemently supports, the test that will prove him right, because obviously he’s already made his mind up. Is that rational? Is that some kind of new scientific method? The demands for proof are only an indication he won’t listen to any evidence, as if evidence is meaningless. Give me a break! It’s right out of 12 Angry Men, when Juror 3 exclaims, “But you can’t PROVE it!” The last holdout. 😡 It’s a conspiracy, gdhal. 🤡
gdhal"Because their "feeling" morphs into a non demonstrable "belief". Actually the superiority of some cables when used in actual Music Reproduction Systems can be reliably and repeatedly proved in proper scientific double-blinded tests and there are examples of such tests conducted on the Internet so you might want to look for them if this is a matter you are truly interested in or if you prefer you can continue to post your "feelings" instead and argue that your feelings have greater value than the knowledge of others as you have done in other threads in this forum and even had your fraudulent representations deleted by the forums thoughtful and purposeful moderator's.
No problem, Geoff! Just doing my part to help you make your 10,000 post record by the end of the summer. The way you hawk every thread, that goal should require no additional effort.
Tell me, though, and not trying to be offensive here, what else do you do?
I have tried to prove guys' contention that inexpensive cables sound as good or very nearly as good as pricier wires BUT i have wasted money constructing speaker wires and ic's with variously ...Radio Shack wires ( several ) ....Monoprice, Dayton Audio from Parts Express etc. They remained in my system a few days at most while waiting for them to burn in.....during which time I tried not to hear the deficiencies in the sound - a lifelessness that made music sound BLAH.
Hey I'm a cheap guy and love a bargain. Yet more than a bargain I NEED music that soars, that makes you get lost in a performance, hearing the space it was recorded in, feeling the force of pianos, tympani's, a basso profound voice. That has required better-than-lampcord wires. Not stratospheric but in the used price $100 to $400 range. Used Tara RSC and Decade ic, 75 ohm coax and speaker wires from around the years 2000 to 2010 make my system sing nowadays.
Trust your ears...borrow better wires than you have from friends for a day or two...and see if you hear more beautiful music from your system - that the best way to explore upgrades.
I expressed my views in this thread just about two years ago, in a lengthy post dated 3-15-2016. I won’t repeat them here, but suffice it to say that I believe they represent a more balanced and nuanced perspective than most of the views that are commonly expressed in these kinds of debates.
What I want to add now is a statement I recently made in the following thread:
Several of the early responses to the OP in that thread, which involved comments he made about cables, leveled accusations of trolling against him. It subsequently became clear that nothing could be further from the truth. I then said as follows:
Almarg 2-27-2018 Another thing your post does [referring to a subsequent post by the OP, which went into more detail than his original post], when juxtaposed with the responses by some others earlier in the thread, is to reinforce a perception I’ve had for some time that some here are much too quick to hurl accusations of trolling. Which can often turn what might have been a constructive and informative thread into a series of pointless exchanges of insults and ugliness.
Regards, -- Al
Edit: +1 Joeylawn36111. The rest of this post was composed and submitted before seeing your post just above.
This site is where I first heard the term ’troll’ - I made what admittedly was a controversial point - but there was no attempt to "sow discord/stir things up"- I was simply stating my opinion.
My point is be careful using the "troll" term - not everybody who says something you disagree with is trying to start a ’fight’ if you will, just putting an opinion out there.
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About Cables - I do believe (but with no experience so it really doesn't mean anything) that in a quality system, high $ cables can make a difference. BUT for me personally, there is absoutely no @#$% way I would spend $'s on high dollar cables.
(Note: this opinion is not the same one as mentioned above. The above one involved Mozart.)
"Playing the troll card." What is done when one finds a post online that disagrees with his opinion and is incapable of intelligently countering that post with an appropriate argument.
bigamp Q: why do people feel the need to keep asking questions like the OP? Does it make them feel better?
A: see Wikipedia
In Internet slang, a troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting quarrels or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal, on-topic discussion, often for the troll's amusement...
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