dynaquest:"I always look for better for less...I always consider and understand the definition of value: "quality divided by price = value."...In other words for products of like quality (durability, performance, appearance, etc), the one with the lowest cost represents the best value. Everybody understands that but many don't care....or don't need to care...or don't want to care.
This is an unfortunate observation and equally unfortunate is cleeds retort to this mistaken and myopic view of the meaning of value and how it intersects with the marketplace and forms the basis for actual purchasing decisions by actual consumers in the real world marketplace of existing products. You're reasoning here is one formed by someone thinking about how they will pay their rent and food bill for the month and maybe how they can fund in some small way their retirement accounts but these are the simple evaluations made by those who are at the subsistence level of income or just above it recent surveys show that a huge percentage of you Americans cannot afford to pay an emergency $1000 USD expense such as a car repair that number your CNN reports is 69% cannot afford the repair and in todays' world a $1000 USD car repair is not especially unusual! For these consumers the definition of value offered by dynaquest is actually not far from what such a consumer should apply when making purchasing decisions because of what they can afford although I would say it is still an incomplete "equation" which is what I would expect from someone in this economic situation especially in your US. But if we are talking about the actual highend of audio which certainly would be considered by reasonable people to be a luxury product such an equation has no place because the cost to some people as calculated in reference to their actual income and net worth would be trivial or inconsequential so another calculation of value is applied completely. It is a mistake to firmly insist that all economic decisions made by everyone every day apply the same rigid and forcefully defined "equation" because it does not take in to account the variables described above and that drive the purchasing decisions made by those who's "equation" is not so strictly influenced by more routine factors such as rent, food etc. |
"Here now is clearthink using this forum to flaunt his economic status (as he sees it) and making assumptions about mine which, besides being none of his business, are wrong.The value concept applies regardless of the consumer....it is not about the consumer about the product. It is a simple concept and need not be debated. Unless debate is your only pastime"
Dynaquest you are the master of debate in this forum you are always debating and then you try to end the conversation with an insult such as this if you read what I wrote I said NOTHING repeat NOTHING about my economic status and only explained the flaws in your reasoning about how to arrive at a meaningful "equation" to calculate the value of a consumer product which you naively insist is a equation that you can apply equally all of the time to all consumers in the actual marketplace of all real consumer items which of course ignores a large body of knowledge of established and researched economic and consumer theory and science of course you are free to believe that you have this apparently "universal rules" for your "universal equations" but you are simply wrong but I can understand your frustration in trying to justify your opinion and had you claimed it was only your opinion we would not have this discussion but instead you insist science and reason are on your side and it should be patently obvious to most that you are mistaken again remember that 69% of you Americans cannot afford a $1000USD car repair!
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dynaquest4"Build it and they will believe...cost seems never to be an issue for those with more bucks than smarts."
Once again here we see from dynaquest his seething irrepressable intolerance of those who make financial choices regarding their Music Reproduction Systems that do not comply with his rigid unflexible clearly defined and stated equation of "value." Rather than simply accept without complaint that there are those of some apparent significant financial means that can make purchases that he chooses to either not afford or that he simply cannot afford he must post here remarks meant only to demean, disrespect and embarass one can only wonder what his unending motivation for such hate is driven by probably some deep inner frustration which is regrettable for all but especially for him there is little doubt he will return with another insulting retort to my simple observation of his behavior but in truth such remarks from him have little "value" even if I apply his defintion of value to his response! Here is his definition I wonder how he would apply it to these most recent hateful remarks of his:"the definition of value: "quality divided by price = value."
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dynaquest:"Hateful remarks? Really, if I hurt your feelings, I’m sorry"
You have not hurt my feelings you are a winkly-dinkler.You do spew hate and ignorance as is obvious from the demonstrated fact that the knowledgeable and experienced moderators on the site here have repeatedly deleted your comments so you're effort to now portray yourself as some friendly and reasonable contributor are pretty silly!
"See your reply above...I think thou doth protest too much."
What you think really doesn't matter to me if you think I "doth protest too much" you might want to carefully examine you're own "contributions" to this topic and silly rigid rules that you alone feel appropriate to bind to all.
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dynaquest4:"Please try to get a grip on your
emotions, this discussion is not significant enough to get your panties
in a wad."
That is a funny remark that you make dyna what is it exactly that you are gripping as you fantasize that I am wearing moist womens' undergarments? You truly have some infantile imagination so I wish you good luck with that and by the way I did not alert the moderators to your post I would leave it up so as to reveal to all here just how childish you are.
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willemj"It's indeed just a fraud, that is all there is to it. And a lucrative one."
If you can prove that it's a fraud rather than just endlessly repeat your faith-based belief you can be rich beyond you're wildest dreams! What is stopping you go for it the lawyers will have a field day getting them rich and you too, especially because it is so "lucrative"! Go Willie go prove your claim for once and for all in a court of law it is so easy it is just such a massive fraud! |
willemj"It has already been done in a UK court of law: the cable seller lost and had to withdraw the product from his chain of stores"
Great you have a precedent to invoke that is wonderful start your own suit after all it is a massive fraud and very lucrative as you say go have the lawyers make themselves and you a bundle of dollars think of all the fun you will have go Willie go sue them all - one at a time of course! |
gdhal"Because their "feeling" morphs into a non demonstrable "belief".
Actually the superiority of some cables when used in actual Music Reproduction Systems can be reliably and repeatedly proved in proper scientific double-blinded tests and there are examples of such tests conducted on the Internet so you might want to look for them if this is a matter you are truly interested in or if you prefer you can continue to post your "feelings" instead and argue that your feelings have greater value than the knowledge of others as you have done in other threads in this forum and even had your fraudulent representations deleted by the forums thoughtful and purposeful moderator's. |
cj1965 "I have a full bench of spectrum
analyzers, signal generators, multi trace scopes, and a very reliable
Earthworks mic that I use on a daily basis. Digital technology exploded a
lot of myths. Now that it is fairly cheap and accessible, only those
who actively choose to bury their heads in the sand will succumb to
foolish arguments involving so called "audible improvements" that can't
be measured or tested for. My microphone can pick up low frequency
grumbling of a truck approaching a quarter mile away and display it on
my software recording dashboard about 20 seconds before it's loud enough
for me ti audibly detect. I see evidence of this every day and don't
needs anyone's "veils have been lifted" hype to tell me if there's a
difference. And no neither NASA nor the BBB are necessary. All that's
needed is a little common sense and a mind that's open to accept science
and the scientific method."
Being that you have such an
extensive stable of testing equipment and also the considerable
expertise to commit such equipment to the rigors of scientific testing and apply the results to the body of data about audio why don't you share with us the results of that testing? Being that you see "evidence every day" of what you call audio myths this should be an undertaking that will only require of a you a very brief committment of time and energy and it will also form the foundation of proof/ legal action you can take against those you consider to be frauds in the audio industry. |
gdhal"You continue to place the onus of proof on the wrong party. I have provided ample opportunity for those who state the impossible to demonstrate...
I do not understand this does not make sense you have made a very specific claim here you stated wire is not directional but then you want me to proof what you claim that is very odd! As for your "opportunity to demonstrate" I do not understand that either you have made a claim how will I demonstrate you're claim that is for you to do? |
So you think it make’s sense for me to proof what you claim???? That is silly nonsense as any reasonable person can perceive without outside assistance! And how will you demonstrate what you claim is in fact true and accurate? |
shadorne"The onus of proof is on those with wild ridiculous claims"
I would agree to a point and given that the cable market for Music Reproduction Systems is sizeable and so many contributors to this forum have remarked about the various sonic improvements to be derived from such cables it would seem that the "
wild ridiculous claims" would in truth emmanate from the very few people on this board who keep raising they're objections that these cables make any difference at all within properly functioning Music Reproduction Systems the "onus" would be on you. However on the other hand I think no one here is obligated to prove anything to anybody and that it would be best if we each expressed the results of our own first hand experiences with matters related to Music Reproduction Systems and not to demand from others that they do research for ourselves. However what is happening is that these few who claim it all sounds the same then ask the rest of us to proof they're case which makes no sense and then they call us delusional or snakeoil salesman! It is a crazy world here on Audiogon where we cannot discuss what we hear without being subjected to personal attacks and even some of the attackers here justify the in the name of "science." |
gdhal"It’s oft times quite humorous and entertaining to read opinions about so called exotic cables that second guess what people who actually have experience with them say. What the ding dong?Except the "experience" cannot be reliably duplicated when any kind of objective test is brought to bear."Actually that is completely false and a untruth that some here like to repeat ad infinitum in the hope that with sufficient repitition the untruth will be accepted as truth however I will say in the defense of those who promote this untruth I believe many actually believe it and have either done no testing or insufficient testing to assert they're claim with any genuine authority but of course those who have actually undertaken the testing know much better! |
geoffkait"Lighten up, Costco. It’s only a hobby"
For you it may be a hobby, or part of a business but for people like costco it is not it is FAITH religion belief and lifestyle they follow a different gospel! |
kosst_amojan"It has nothing to do with the hobby or audio. It
has to do with a guy spouting myths and nonsense. It doesn't really
matter what topic somebody is speaking on, I don't like liars"
I understand exactly you're position costco your faith is the TRUTH and any one who's beliefs in any way are not in perfect alignment with yours are myth tellers and false prophets or perhaps just mentally ill and deluded this is a reflection of the tremendous power of FAITH and religion it is actually very common and if you do not agree that it is so common it is only because your "church" has such a small "congregation" and your gospel is not more widely embraced. |
gdhal"If you understand his position, why are you intentionally misspelling his user id"
It looks like gdhal has become sensitive today that is ok I think costco is funny even though I did not originate that nickname I researched it and found it is the name of a major "warehouse" type store in the US I also think your "Bob>Amy>Bob>Amy" refrain is also very funny because absurdity can be an element of humor kind of like the Brits with Monty Python in fact whenever I see you're
"Bob>Amy>Bob>Amy"
I picture John Cleese doing his funny walk I do not know if you have that in the US you might want to look at Youtube it is probably there. |
kosst_amojan"you’re confusing truth and faith as being the same in some way. They’re polar opposite concepts. Truth is the trust in things seen. Faith is trust in things unseen...That’s the difference between your opinion and mine. Mine is rooted in things seen and is therefore truth..."
Yes that is exactly the sort of response I would expect from someone consumed by faith, belief or what many call religious fervor it is the absolute conviction that the facts support their faith and a overriding discomfort with being able to express faith in a pure way by simply stating plainly "this is what I believe" and must instead insist that they're belief is based on some "fact" or set of facts such as a religious tenet. There is tremendous comfort for some people in embracing faith and as I have previously stated we must in this group accept that other's here will have "faith" that we do not agree with that is fine! However what is not quite right is for you to continually pound this group with your insistence that your "faith" is the "true faith" based on your interpretation of "truth" while at the same time denying overabundant evidence that indicates your "faith" does not have all of the "answers" or any exclusivity of the "truth" it is like people who insist on the "science" of "intelligent design" while at the same time sweeping aside overwhelming research, evidence and documentation that shows it to be simply inconsistent with the record of facts. But make no mistake here I absolutely support your right to pretty much practice your faith as you see fit. |
dynaquest4
"Do your research and DO NOT take recommendations from people who have already..."
It doesn't take much "research" to plainly, decisively, and emphatically reveal that you're comments, directions, and protestations are biased, uninformed, and propagandistic when people actually do the research that you suggest they will see this for them selfs. |
gdhal" and all manufactured wire is directional.
"Untrue, to the extent there is any audible distinction a human can detect with the naked ear."
Do you have any proof of this gdhal or is this your "gut feeling" based on a deeply held intuition or religious belief or is this based on your understanding of what you perceive to be the "science" surrounding the claim of directionality or do you have other concrete verifiable meaningful repeatable studies to share with us or this is simply none other a solitary passing remark you make just to weigh in on a this topic of legitimate conversation? |
dynaquest4"Ever been pumping gas and notice that the flow is slow? Yep. The gas delivery hose was mounted backwards. You get more fuel, faster and for less money, when the hose is mounted in the correct direction."
There is not much in common between an audio signal and gasoline but I guess you think you are being funny but in fact by avoiding the actual evidence at hand you are making yourself to appear probably more ignorant that you are in reality which is unfortunate for you. |
