why do people feel the need to buy expensive cable
I have tried expensive cables and one's moderately priced. I would say there were some differences but I can't actually say the expensive cables were better. IMHO I believe a lot of people buy expensive cables because they don't actual trust their ears and are afraid of making a mistake. They figure the expensive cables are better for the fact they cost more. If you have a difference of opinion or share the same thoughts, I would like to hear about it.
dvavc 56 posts 01-02-2016 8:29pm "The point is that all "hi-end"(for whatever it means)) prices are totally baseless B.S., and rip-off. They never justified by any cost of materials or any other logical way or common sense, it never makes any sense at all and sooner or later each of us will confront the fact that $1000 component might sound on par or even better than one for $10,000 and moreover might use same or even better parts. People picking on cables just because it is so obvious to everyone that piece of wire can’t cost $$$$$$). However, components are no different, i.e. parts cost can’t ever justify the hi-end prices. A "trick" of "know how" that’s what sells, let alone those who doesn’t even have any tricks and sell overpriced fancy aluminum boxes, LED lights, fancy shrinks, etc.))). For some reason people, in their mind, identify better looking box with better sounding, without any regard whatsoever to what electronic parts are inside of that box. Bottom line - all this "hi-end" stuff, whether it is a cable or a component, is ridiculously overpriced, no, not "expansive" - OVERPRICED. I think manufacturers, when they sticking those ridiculous price tags on their goods are anticipating that it will be sold for 50%-75% less, however, lately prices went sooo out of hands that even that doesn’t help.)) And it doesn’t even matter how much one making, or what is the economy outside of your listening room, it just ridiculous in a relative term, i.e. how for example DAC can cost $40.000 (let alone speakers and/or turntables for $120,000)? A car cost that much requires plants, thousands of employees insurances, steel etc, etc., i.e. cost about 100 times more to build. One of my favorites is when something which in real life worth $50 priced about $10,000 but to add some credibility to that bogus, out of blue tag, they make it like $10, 015.23, like it was strictly calculated and justified to the last penny, like they been struggle to bring to you their best price possible but couldn’t make it any better because another .15 cents less would force them out of business.)))))) What a B.S. That’s why used it sells for a penny on a dollar, there are no real value in any of it."
So help me try to understand why you frequent A'gon and why you make the effort to post... If in fact, the whole thing is an overpriced farce, why even bother, really? Why trouble yourself? Why not just listen to tunes on your car radio and be done with all this? Or just pick up an honest and reasonable hobby like wittling? :)
It appears that this thread is crossing over in to the New Year! It is good to read such discussions about Cabling. Easily, this is the most-important component in any system. Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
Well, don't get on a rant or anything! I suppose it appears that some high end stuff is really expensive, but you or I have no basis to know whether they are simply priced at the usual mark up from manufacturer to wholesaler to retail. I do know that when stereo components are made in small batches the cost per unit is much higher. That's just simple economics.
And if they use military grade and or very high tolerances for the parts, which are going to be again made in small batches, up goes the price. A $10,000 amp or pair of speakers will not be sold by the thousands, friend. Do some of these expensive components even sell 200 units per year? I doubt it. One company, Ayre, makes the front aluminum pieces out of solid blocks that get machined down to the designed piece, again not cheap. I have no idea whether they sell at the usual margins or not. And frankly, I really don't care. If some wealthy people want to buy these unobtanium pieces, so what? That's up to them, not you.
That said, for myself I can't afford such but have pieced together a pretty nice sounding system through some trial and error and reading forums like this one. I use Morrow Audio cables, and have turned to some of the internet direct companies to get what I consider to be better bang for buck. The Morrow cables really do make a difference in my system, and so did the Audioquest Type 4 speaker cables.
In fact, these cables really upped the sound quality in my system, and although I only spent about 700 for 3 sets of cables, it was well worth it. I truly believe that some may not be able to hear this difference due to hearing.
I know a guy who can't sing on key for love nor money. He'll bellow out the words, and has no idea he's way off. His hearing is different than mine, and that is why some people can't hear these improvements. Then they go online and rant about how they bought an expensive cable and it didn't help(nothing to do with hearing loss). Or perhaps they tried one cable and left the other 3 cheap monoprice crap in the system which neutralized any benefits.
Buy what you like, but to call cable enthusiasts snake oil suckers says more about you than anyone else.
The point is that all "hi-end"(for whatever it means)) prices are totally baseless B.S., and rip-off. They never justified by any cost of materials or any other logical way or common sense, it never makes any sense at all and sooner or later each of us will confront the fact that $1000 component might sound on par or even better than one for $10,000 and moreover might use same or even better parts. People picking on cables just because it is so obvious to everyone that piece of wire can’t cost $$$$$$). However, components are no different, i.e. parts cost can’t ever justify the hi-end prices. A "trick" of "know how" that’s what sells, let alone those who doesn’t even have any tricks and sell overpriced fancy aluminum boxes, LED lights, fancy shrinks, etc.))). For some reason people, in their mind, identify better looking box with better sounding, without any regard whatsoever to what electronic parts are inside of that box. Bottom line - all this "hi-end" stuff, whether it is a cable or a component, is ridiculously overpriced, no, not "expansive" - OVERPRICED. I think manufacturers, when they sticking those ridiculous price tags on their goods are anticipating that it will be sold for 50%-75% less, however, lately prices went sooo out of hands that even that doesn’t help.)) And it doesn’t even matter how much one making, or what is the economy outside of your listening room, it just ridiculous in a relative term, i.e. how for example DAC can cost $40.000 (let alone speakers and/or turntables for $120,000)? A car cost that much requires plants, thousands of employees insurances, steel etc, etc., i.e. cost about 100 times more to build. One of my favorites is when something which in real life worth $50 priced about $10,000 but to add some credibility to that bogus, out of blue tag, they make it like $10, 015.23, like it was strictly calculated and justified to the last penny, like they been struggle to bring to you their best price possible but couldn’t make it any better because another .15 cents less would force them out of business.)))))) What a B.S. That’s why used it sells for a penny on a dollar, there are no real value in any of it.
Well when you hear better you fell like you need better and when you have heard some of the more expensive cables help systems sound really good as audiophiles we want whatever we think helps us get there sound wise. I got spoiled early because I got to hear some the best and some very cutting edge technology equipment and cable wise. That's what creates the hunger to try the really expensive stuff. Curiosity killed the wallet of the audiophile
Hey Mitch - you probably have some point here - I think that .is 'across the board' of an manufacturing industry or process. If you read an issue of HiFi Critic Martin Colloms is very honest insofar as he will say a previous model is better than the current model. In some cases there are sometimes backward steps, however, newer models of a type of component usually bring improvements. What I will say, however, within components. some parts are not available or manufactured, or there are restrictions so new is not always better - ie the JFets in the Vendetta SCP2A, the new lead free solder preventing the manufacture of the Connoisseur pre-amps - likewise explaining that KRELL took awhile to get their amps to sound good with lead free solder. I personally take my time before any changes - in fact it took me around 10 years to fundamentally change my system, and that has been in the areas of speaker cables, and a dedicated mains - wish I did it sooner.
My question would be, are they creating innovation for the sake of offering something new each buying cycle, or to really move the ball forward? I guess when you employ a R&D team, you need to keep them gainfully employed, whether they launch a rocket every year, or not.
I remember downhill ski manufacturers coming out with "new and improved" skis/bindings/boots every year (sometimes just a different color scheme), and every year, the guys who could ski really well, could still ski really well, no matter what they were skiing on, and the others, well, you get my point. When they came out with parabolic skis...that was a true rocket launch.
I understand about incrementally moving things forward and such but the consumer pays the freight for all that R&D, and trial and error and, I think with cables, the issue is whether the actual sonic improvement is worth the extraordinary cost of some of the cables being sold. However, for those who have and want to spend the big bucks, carry on.
It would appear that air dielectric cables would not be terribly difficult to make, you just need spacers to keep the conductor centered in the jacket. Now vacuum cables, if there really are such things, is a horse of a different color. Of course you can achieve the same thing by suspending non-vacuum cables from the ceiling.
@lohanimal I think you make a great observation. It is a business and sometimes creating innovation costs money. It takes time and a lot of trial and error. Differently materials in different ways. I recently tried to replace a cable with something less expensive and I realized that the innovation of what I had to me was special sound wise. I'm not saying you can't do well using cheaper I'm just saying that there is a lot of innovation and increased performance in the cable arena. Some of it is costly. If you can't or don't want to try it then so be it. I just hate the us vs. them in this area. I'm happy for those who can afford it. I'm also happy for those who find great sound on the cheap. Enjoy everyone.
Can I just say something here. There is a DIY audio/audiophile obsession with equipment, cables in particular, being a rip off which people can make in their garage far better. As aforementioned cables from JPS, Nordost, Taralabs and several others are very expensive to manufacture and have a large 'rejection rate'. How many DIY 'hit and miss' bargains do we make? likewise are any of us capable of making an 'air dialectric' or a vacuum cable? Let's also factor in the costs of holding stock, distribution, paying staff some sort of living, shows, and advertising.
I get quite dramatic differences in sound reproduction with different companies and price points. I have come to believe that Power Cables are as important as anything, even on kit you might not expect to respond. I was frankly astonished at the effect of a Lessloss Origonal cable on the Power Supply of my TW Accustic Raven one turntable, having expected little or no difference.
What brands and price points, well I am afraid that depends on your system and ears and it really comes down to "suck it and see". A big plus here is the second hand market, I never by new if possible. Used cable cable is usually at a good discount and the origonal owner has kindly burnt it in for you, plus performance should be 100%, unless the cable has been seriously abused.
Currently, I have found that Lessloss, Sablon audio, Silnote and Wywires , give pretty good performance for their cost. No coincidence I think, that they all small companies relying on shows and word of mouth, not hefty marketing budgets.
As to price points, well that of course depends on your system cost. It seems pretty stupid to connect $1000 components with $1000 interconnects. Having said that, I like many of you I am sure, have heard quite modest systems, can be made to sound fantastic, with expensive accessories, so whose to know? The old rule of 10% of total budget to be spent on cable, is pretty sensible, if not followed slavishly.
It's a process. I think you have to be patient. I also think you are the judge of what your system needs. Find something that's good. Find a match and live with it. I think those who have more income are able to try the higher priced stuff. I'm glad that I have been able to own some of the high fidelity products as well as listen to Rick's system. I also listened to the late Dave baskin's system. Both systems were uber expensive but they sounded great. However they were polar opposites and sounded nothing alike. We have to appreciate the music and what your system does and enjoy it all. Not obsess over it.
Most all of us agree cables are a critical part of a system but Calvin is right, you do not have to spend crazy money for cables - but you might have to spend crazy money to come to that conclusion.
I must say that I regretfully agree that everything matters. Last evening I listen to three ways to convert music in digital to analog on my music server. One was JRiver MC 20, another Signalyst, and the third Foobar. I was amazed that there were great differences in how about fifteen cuts sounded. Generally I find the Signalyst best but many cuts sounded better on Foobar and JRiver MC 20. Mostly these were 44.1 recordings but the quad native DSDs shined on Signalyst.
I am going no further in this quest of what sounds better. I will probably forgo using Foobar and with 44.1 will mainly use JRiver MC 21. On my many SACDs converted to DSD and new DSD recordings I will use Signalyst. There is no question that "bits are bits" is not true as all recordings passed being perfect.
Everything matters... That said, I believe a lot of folks get caught up in the PR (b*llsh*t) techno-speak or theory, and often the bling. Yet, good sounding cabling inescapably, has research, materials, and labor associated with its cost.
In any highly resolving system and most situations, I find the choices of good cabling to be a critical part of the HiFi puzzle.
To what Tonykay just queried, Yes really. Yes, seriously. Melbguy1 is sooo spot on!
Spending crazy money on cables is not the answer. There has to be balance. Better equipment has to usually be fed better cables. I went up the chain in high fidelity and they do get better going up the chain. There no way I would spend more on cables than actual equipment. I have a challenging room that affects my sound as well. Hardwood floors, odd shape and reflections. I also can only put my speakers so far apart.
Interesting discussion. I think cables absolutely have a strong effect on a system. As a general statement, those who have moved up the ladder over time into reference gear generally swear by spending a fair amount of proper cables. My advice to anyone is try a handful of quality cables at multiple price points before settling into a decision. Spending $80k on your system components and connecting them with $1k in cables is false economy and you will never hear the systems true ability. For clarity, this does not mean one must then spend $30k on cabling to do justice either.
I read this thread with interest. One must consider that one ought to consider the issue of cable matching as well. By way of example, an old Naim using DNM precision cables will outperform the Naim using an expensive Goertz cable - why - it's the fact that old Naims can't even be used with high capacitance cables. In terms of food analogy truffle oil on a mushroom risotto will go, whereas however much truffle one uses, it is not going to make a sweet strawberry souffle taste delicious - regardless of how much it costs. One of my best improvements was from a TCI tonearm cable to a Nordost Tyr - it was astonishing the difference that it made. Application is just, if not, more important than the amount you spend, but if one gets the right type of cable and goes up a range the sad truth (in terms of spending money) is that there usually are genuine improvements (subject to the law of diminishing returns)
1.) Good cabling makes a good design even better. Cabling are sometimes misused to correct deficiencies or to enhance a certain range. Until one has experience really great cables, I don't think one can make the statement you just did. Why on earth would most of us who bought more expensive variants, want to throw money?
2.) >> (eg: anything that is not mass market tends to have design issues). there are plenty examples in the mass market industries like the car industry that shows design flaws. Back to the audio industry: Let me ask you how many models of the high end series of mass market brands like Sony, Denon, etc proved to be keepers? Yes, just a few. Heck, even some of Nelson Pass' designs turned out to be just ok. Your assumption that great design and quality is correlated to the quantities sold - and indeed this triggers the economy of scale, resulting in a lower price- is not always correct, it affects but it does not dictate. I would say quality control is harder to achieve with some hand made equipment/device if a stringent QC process is not established and rigorously followed.
I have mentioned in another thread that the Mogami cable, widely used in pro-audio, offers excellent value/money in the entry to mid level market segment.
The correlation between the cost of cables vs the cost of critical components needs indeed to be monitored. Lars of NordOst used to put a NordOst Valhalla behind a RadioShack level receiver to prove his point that a (power) cord does make a big difference. It is of course totally up to the owner to decide if he/she want to spend 5, 10 or 80% of the total budget in cabling. The same rationale goes for the patron in a restaurant spending a relatively big portion of the bill on a great bottle of wine rather than on the entree. Just suggestion that the overall meal experience could be better, e.g. not spending on a Chateauneuf-du-Pape, rather on a chateaubriand, not ordering a 30 yr port after dinner but instead a better dessert,...
So many components, combinations and cables. Find what works, what you like and enjoy it. Best advice is that if you can't stop listening that's a great sign. If your component or cable gets you there then great. It's funny how we value the opinion of folks who will never hear our systems or who stop by for a session every now and then. Trust your own ear.
Matt M. stated the following: "I spend my audio dollar mostly on equipment, rather than cables. I buy
cables that allow me to feel much more connected to the music, and I
dismiss the rest. I use for MY system (made up of all separate
components) low to moderately priced cables... Morrow Audio and used
Nordost cables. The used cable market is very good btw. The right cable
for any ones own system will vary greatly by sound and cost. IMO". regards, Matt M
Had to laugh because this is exactly what I use for my system.
@jazzonthehudson I agree, your ears have to be the judge and I have actually heard or have owned the cables I speak of for extended sessions. I can't speak on those I have not. I just know that I have came a long way from the Audioquest diamondback back in the day. I guess you have to be careful. They sound like blankets to me now
I will also add, I have taralabs omega 12" jumper cable's on the jbl bi-amp L7 speaker's that is far beyond the brass stock plate that completed the circuit for single speaker cable's, that addition was incredible!
I would like to add some cables bring me closer to the music. Some of the cheaper cables sound like you threw a blanket over the music. That is usually the case when I have compared. It just depends on the what you've heard I've heard some really great stuff. Some people never have the opportunity and I'm thankful that I've had the ear candy that most people never have the chance. We all have different experiences. Enjoy yours.
It seems that the OP got more than he bargained for, soliciting input on the perceived value of cables. FWIW, I have really tried very hard with lamp cords, DIY cables but there is a limit (mechanical, metallurgical, chemical) that is reached when you get beyond a mid level system.
Not unexpected, some religious wars and some kind of flaming started...some pointed comments are refreshingly true, some soaked in sarcasm on the other hand made my day! I needed a napkin.
Similar to Amazon comments, posters should have the "verified purchase" icon so it would be easier for the casual peruser to see who has bought some cable of value ($-wise, not always sound wise) and who has not, who has a great system and ears, who has supposedly a $24k cable and some JBL speakers (sorry, couldn’t resist that).
Let your ears be the judge and, as always, the beauty (of the sound) is in the eye of the beholder and taste certainly differ.
What’s next: does the thickness and the polish quality of your amp front plate make a difference?
"have often said that talking about sound is largely worthless given the variety of tastes, rooms, etc. What I have said about XXXXX would be basically limited my ears, room, taste in music, and whether one likes to be present at the recording or rather to listen to nice music...."
Definitely agree and see your points; it's all conditional and involves a lot of variables. Human beings tend to want to boil things down to "X is better than Y" which is virtually impossible in many less-complicated categories let alone Audio Cabling!
calvinj, I'm not downing people who don't spend on cables, but certainly I know that some more expensive cables sound better than any cheaper cables I've heard. zephyr24069, I have often said that talking about sound is largely worthless given the variety of tastes, rooms, etc. What I have said about HFCables would be basically limited my ears, room, taste in music, and whether one likes to be present at the recording or rather to listen to nice music. But a great many agree with me. When I first heard the HFC CT-1 ics, I was immediately thought "wow these are quite different." I now have listened to complete looms of the Enhanced, Ultimate, Ultimate Reference, Ultimate Reference Rhodium, Ultimate, and once to the Pro Series. With the exception of the last, all were in my room. Each is seriously better than the preceding. I wish I could say otherwise, but cannot: more magnets are better than fewer magnets.
Good comments earlier in the thread about personal preferences, music listened to, sonic signature desired and system synergy. All of this is so purely subjective 90+% of the time that I think we all MAY forget that from time to time. There are alot of great cables out there costing less as well as more. I would love to find cables at lower prices that give me the sound I'm looking for and regardless what's already been spent, I already have by some measure due to 2 reasonable dealers and 3 manufacturers who pack a hell of a lot of punch in their cables at a given price point when there are cables out there that cost 2, 3, 4, 5+ times more that claim to deliver the same thing. Believe me,...I never set out years ago thinking I'd have to allocate high-end component-level budget numbers to cable purchases....
I used to be a I'm not spending on cables guy. I remember when I first went from Audioquest rocket 44 and I put in clarus Crimson. Big change. Then I went the high fidelity ct1 brand and it was even better. Expensive but I enjoyed them. I still have them and I enjoy them. I can't go back to the other stuff. The higher priced cables sounded better 90% of the time to me but all of our hearing can be a little different as well as tastes. I've been blessed to try lots of cables cheap and expensive. In 8 years I've had extended auditions of more than 20 different brands. Some good. Some bad but system matching is important. You have to know what you like most. Your type of music is important as well. I listen to a lot quicker faster jazz. Speed, decay and detail is important. It's just depends on what you like and what you are willing to pay for it. I'm not going to down people that don't spend on cables. If you can hear the difference that all that matters.
Of course, I entirely disagree with you. There is no strong correlation between price and sounding outstanding, but there is some correlation, which means you cannot expect to find much excellence among the cheaper cables. But I remember when rejected paying $150 for Fulton's speaker wires and settled for welding wires that I thought looked like the Fulton wires but found they weren't and thus I went back to my Radio Shack wires.
I would be ok using my old audio quest Quartz rca's, or would the groneberg Quattro ref be an improvement ver the audio quest Quartz cables??????? They are about 200$ 1.5m pair for groneberg.
Or just save the cash and use my old audio quest Quartz. ?????
@everyone. If somethings sounds great and it's cheaper it's a no brainer. Get what you can afford and enjoy it. Some cables perform way over their price points. It depends on your system. A cable will not always sound better if it costs more. However, we set the market. If we are paying they will keep selling. Enjoy what u have!
They will send you all the cables you want if you are willing to pay the 5 percent of the retail price of the cable plus shipping. They don't provide this service for free."
The 5% they charge you goes toward the cables if you end up buying them. If not, it goes into your account and you can spend it however you like. They're not looking to keep your 5%. In fact, when you use the 5% to buy something, you'll still get the standard discount of 10% on your purchase.
You'll pay shipping, of course. That's just a given.
"They will send you all the cables you want if you are willing to pay the 5 percent of the retail price of the cable plus shipping. They don't provide this service for free."
That's not quite correct. The Cable Co. requires a 5 percent deposit, but its website says it "will be applied in full against purchases (cable or non-cable products) from The Cable Company, Usedcable.com, or our Ultra Systems affiliate."
They will send you all the cables you want if you are willing to pay the 5 percent of the retail price of the cable plus shipping. They don't provide this service for free.
It's not for money's sake that I settled on the cables I have. I tried just about every type of cable, cheap and more expensive than what I currently use....including Mogami. My decisions were based on performance only, given I have the ability to spend more than some, but as a rule, I do not overspend for jewelry factors. It is understood however that priorities can vary in individual systems.
Well Taters , I use to live in the fantasy land myself. Believed / hoped by spending more money i would get better sound for many years . Sure am glad it did not take too long for the epiphany to happen . Some spend a life time in the "fantasy land"
@nonoise. Point taken. I guess we should by and enjoy what we want and can hear. We all have opinions and different hearing. Enjoy your system as well as the other points of view on the thread. Hard to read for me too.
I have no doubt whatsoever with your findings, it's just the tone.
I actually wish I could afford to try the expensive cables out there. I don't begrudge anyone who can. My point is that there are not two camps here decrying each other nor the need to put the wagons in a circle.
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