why do people feel the need to buy expensive cable
I have tried expensive cables and one's moderately priced. I would say there were some differences but I can't actually say the expensive cables were better. IMHO I believe a lot of people buy expensive cables because they don't actual trust their ears and are afraid of making a mistake. They figure the expensive cables are better for the fact they cost more. If you have a difference of opinion or share the same thoughts, I would like to hear about it.
gdhal"Because their "feeling" morphs into a non demonstrable "belief". Actually the superiority of some cables when used in actual Music Reproduction Systems can be reliably and repeatedly proved in proper scientific double-blinded tests and there are examples of such tests conducted on the Internet so you might want to look for them if this is a matter you are truly interested in or if you prefer you can continue to post your "feelings" instead and argue that your feelings have greater value than the knowledge of others as you have done in other threads in this forum and even had your fraudulent representations deleted by the forums thoughtful and purposeful moderator's.
“Because their "feeling" morphs into a non demonstrable "belief.”
Actually it’s quite the opposite. As fate would have it gdhal has sort of become the poster boy for the Backfire Effect. What is the Backfire Effect, you ask? The Backfire Effect is the phenomenon that occurs in a heated debate when a person refuses to listen to ANY argument but instead clings more strongly to his beliefs in the face of contradictory evidence. In fact he won’t even wait for the blind test he so vehemently supports, the test that will prove him right, because obviously he’s already made his mind up. Is that rational? Is that some kind of new scientific method? The demands for proof are only an indication he won’t listen to any evidence, as if evidence is meaningless. Give me a break! It’s right out of 12 Angry Men, when Juror 3 exclaims, “But you can’t PROVE it!” The last holdout. 😡 It’s a conspiracy, gdhal. 🤡
....and even had your fraudulent representations deleted by the forums thoughtful and purposeful moderator's....
I do recall a number of your threads were also deleted.
As to fraudulence, I look at a bit differently. As soon as I mentioned my rationale for wanting to skype - because seeing and hearing you lends credibility to the authenticity of your interest - and that it is a possibility you are merely a 14 year old school girl without the financial means and/or legal authority to enter into any agreement - did I validate your insincerity.
I have a higher end sound system (McIntosh and Revel Salon 2's). I had a bunch of friends come over and they all brought various speaker cables. High priced down to cheap junk. Fairly scientific, no beer until the test was complete. We did blind testing. We really embarrassed ourselves. A dozen cables from $50 to $1000 and we were all over the board. All I'm saying is perhaps you should test several cables prior to purchasing. You may be surprised at what you don't hear.
Way more scientific than Joe Schmoe switching from $200 RCA connects to $1000 connects and reporting that the improvement was "awesome and unbelievable" and "the bottom end clarity was breathtakingly better."
I see cables priced well beyond what I've paid for my system. As a guy that has jammed cigarette butts into my ears due to lack of earplugs running a 120lb jackhammer I can honestly say, I'll never hear the difference.
Quality cables are a must if you want to get the best out of your system. I've known people who upgraded their speakers or other components before upgrading the cabling in their system. At the very least, get cables that can make your system perform and you don't have to go broke. Belden 8402 mic cable is a good place to start cheap. Kimber also has inexpensive cables that are solid. High end systems need cables that will bring out the most, that's the only reason to spend big bucks on cables.
You have to see what a system can do first and that's down to the details. Placement, the room, speaker stands, cabling, power. All these things can sometimes make a system sound ten times better than it did because they were overlooked.
Of those things mentioned by pokee1016, cables are least likely to make an improvement is audio quality...assuming good quality (proper length and resistance) cables are already being used. Basic, good quality cables are not expensive.
I agree that most cables are of a similar design and can be had fairly inexpensively. However, Transparent and MIT cables are demonstrably superior at creating a lifelike reproduction of the music. They offer a broad range of products for both the audiophile on a budget to the no holds barred crowd! Choices are great these days, solutions abound for all types of audio enthusiasts...enjoy and stop arguing over which is thee best for everyone.
dave_b (I agree that) most cables are of a similar design and can be had fairly inexpensively.
That’s a patently false statement. There are solid core cables, there are stranded core cable. There are cables that have hollow conductors. There are cables with multiple solid core conductors. There are cables with air dielectric, cables with Teflon dielectric, cables with polypropylene dielectric. There are cables as thin as a human hair. There are 10 ga cables. There are silver cables, copper cables, liquid cables, carbon cables, graphene cables, cryod cables. There are cables that use single crystal copper. There are cables that use ultra pure copper. There are cables that use some gold mixed in with the silver. There are shielded and unshielded cables. There are cables that are controlled for directionality and cables that aren’t. Some cables have carbon fiber sleeves.
A forum that involves discussions with countering viewpoints is just that - not an "argument." And please ...why do you think you are of such stature in this field or on this forum that you can tell us to "stop" having this discussion?
Well, I’ve heard and owned a lot of these designs and they are mostly variations on a theme within a narrow band of performance criteria. Cable Du jour if you will. Wire is wire no matter if it’s in a tuxedo or Goodwill attire. The range of what sounds “good” to any given human is as variable as our genetic makeup. So...it’s silly and of little value to argue over the minutia between wire manufacturers unless something exceptional is being offered that can actually enhance the listening experience across a broad range of fellow music lovers. But alas, we are not wired for consensus or even happiness it seems. We prefer to argue, disagree and dissect that which may even have only the subtlest of differences when we could be discussing great music and it’s importance to our lives. Granted, that is for another post, but the music we listen to is probably indicative of the type of equipment we use.
Chris IS a Shaman for sure but offers only more of the same variations I mentioned earlier. Some designs sound brighter, some emphasize bass or midrange etc..
I bought my reference MIT cables based on home audition in my system. I just didn’t want to be without them as the detail, nuance and dynamics were all incredibly improved for my Spectral gear. It was a no brainer. Costly but a very enjoyable improvement in everyday living.
Before you spend crazy money on cables this is what you do first:
Open up your speakers and check the wires that connect the binding posts or the crossovers to the speakers inside. 95% of the time it's cheap no name, no brand, nothing special, basic copper wires inside the enclosure before it reaches the woofer or tweeter.
“Proper copper” is all you need to pass the signal along...with all the noise present and intact. Transparent cable will remove it and lower the noise floor dramatically. Everything else is just cable!
Calvinj - I agree it can make a difference, but most likely only on quality systems like yours ;)* My gear is mainly "mid-fi" stuff.
I think one can acknowledge that some technologies are better, for example, vinyl being superior to digital/tubes to transistors, etc., but Choose not to go that route for other reasons.
I like listening to music also, but I also have another related part to this hobby. I also dabble in modifying stereo gear, and am also a collector of stereo electronics I like. I'd rather spend my $'s on 'gear' than wire, for example.
@joeylawn36111 you are right when you have a certain kind of gear they make more of a difference. I agree you should spend on components first. I have a great Dac and a tubed CD player. I’m injoying it all the best I can. I’m through chasing cables. I have some that I’m happy with and they get the job done. My dream source would be a soulutions player to be honest with you. It’s the most natural analog sounding player with detail I have ever heard in my life! Smooth natural with no listening fatigue.
Jenner1 seems to have a good point. If the wire in the speaker cabinet is not as good as the the wire from the amp, seems like a waste. I have Revel Salon 2's and I'm sure the internal wiring is is very good, but I really don't know exactly what it is. I don't think it would be very effective to run super, high end cables (external) into good but not high end wiring (internal). Weakest link may be in the box.
it’s a bit like the reverse of taking the position that using good power cables is sensless when there is romex in the wall
However - the wires inside the box are generally individual conductors and not subject to RFI/EMI to the same levels as many speaker cables
From that perspective the individual conductors will convey the signal more effectively. So very often they are far from the weakest link
But you really need to assess what is on the inside before making any judgement.
Old speakers do tend to have very poor wiring in them so it is well worth replacing the wire, whereas newer speakers tend to have pretty good wire in them.
Does it hurt to upgrade - no. Is it really required? - only if you feel the need to scratch that particular "ITCH" Will you benefit? - probably - if you know what you are doing
Binding Posts are probably of more concern and in many cases, they should be replaced - so while you have the wiring exposed - change it - i.e. if needed
Two of the speakers I used to own are internally wired with Supra Ply. I tried Supra Ply SCs and the sound was okay. Using different SCs sounded better. It's not always the case that what's used inside a speaker is good enough for use as SCs.
There are two very easy ways to debunk outrageous cable, "power conditioner", "isolator", "speaker cable suspender", "special capacitor", and "special resistor" claims:
1) Measure the electrical and acoustical signals with the allegedly improved "product" versus without. It's the year 2018 folks. We now have cheap devices that detect all aspects of sound (phase, pressure, frequency) at a level that is orders of magnitude better than average human hearing. What once cost tens of thousands of dollars in testing equipment can practically be obtained for several hundred with a high performance laptop, high quality calibrated microphone, and audio test suite freeware.
2) Research the backgrounds of the individuals who own and run the companies that are peddling "special resistors", "speaker cable suspenders" and the like. I've been observing this scam for nearly 4 decades and every single "manufacturer" of said products I've looked into is run by con artists and fast talking salesmen/women. Just like there are tons of con artists peddling miracle health cures, there are and unfortunately probably always will be con artists selling magic cables and capacitors that some how fix everything that is wrong with your audiofool system.
Someone needs to use the Yellow Pages to find his local consumer protection agency representative. I’m sure he’ll help you mount a nice big lawsuit against all these scam artists. Bad scam artist! Bad! Let us know how that works out. Also, try getting a hold of NASA to see if they have time to do some testing for you. Report back your results.
"
Someone needs to use the Yellow Pages to find your local consumer
protection agency representative. I’m sure he will help you mount a
lawsuit against all these scam artists. Bad scam artist! Bad! Let us
know how that works out. Also, try getting a hold of NASA Nd see if they
have time to do some testing for you. Report back your results." - geoffkait
I don't need anyone to test for me. I have a full bench of spectrum analyzers, signal generators, multi trace scopes, and a very reliable Earthworks mic that I use on a daily basis. Digital technology exploded a lot of myths. Now that it is fairly cheap and accessible, only those who actively choose to bury their heads in the sand will succumb to foolish arguments involving so called "audible improvements" that can't be measured or tested for. My microphone can pick up low frequency grumbling of a truck approaching a quarter mile away and display it on my software recording dashboard about 20 seconds before it's loud enough for me ti audibly detect. I see evidence of this every day and don't needs anyone's "veils have been lifted" hype to tell me if there's a difference. And no neither NASA nor the BBB are necessary. All that's needed is a little common sense and a mind that's open to accept science and the scientific method.
"
I anxiously await your results. I had no idea you were so handy.
"
I'm no different from any other college educated "joe shmo". You too can buy an Intel 7 based laptop with 4gb of RAM, buy a decent calibrated mic for $300, some balanced cable, a good pro preamp and power amp with balanced I/O, and download Holm Impulse. You don't have to be a NASA rocket scientist. And you certainly don't have to "BELIEVE" or accept as gospel anything I have to say. That's the beauty of science - anybody can do it - even you. You don't have to go along with what any "high priest" of audiophiledom has to say.
Forgive Geoff...when faced with serious questions he answers either with a question or sarcasm. One thing for sure...he will say something. No offense; that is just the way he is, bless his heart.
Don't believe the naysayers, you do need good quality cable. Believe me its not cheap. For really high end systems you might even need to spend up to $10 a metre.
There's nothing wrong with choosing high conductivity or high purity copper cable. No one is saying cheap narrow gauge zip cord in long run lengths is a good thing. Again - common sense. Super or oversized cable may help reduce voltage drop and inductance but it increases capacitance. This has been covered by "professionals" ad nauseum.
Common sense and remarkably in this case too, science, tells us that moderation is the best and most suitable approach. Regardless, I challenge anyone with $5000 cables to run both a scientific measurement and double blind test to reliably determine if they can improve system performance over cables that have similar resistance and capacitance per foot costing in the vicinity of $2.50 per foot. You don't see these kinds of examinations published because they would reveal what most scientifically oriented people have known since before "audiophiledum" was an accepted hobby. No one (at least I) is advocating for an extreme point of view. Quality cable components that achieve the desired results don't have to cost more than a good used car. Anyone who thinks they do is not playing with a full deck, IMH (fairly informed) O.
I’ve said this before somewhere on Audiogon but it applies
to this thread…about WHY people buy expensive cable/wire when there is no
reason for these “exotic” products to perform better than good quality cables
of the proper length and resistance.
Likely the main reason is that this stuff looks really great
if/when you can see it. Those proud of
these accessories’ visual appeal, have their equipment well spread…giving the
viewer opportunity to see how well equipped and connected the audiophile owner’s
system is. When systems are referred to
as “music reproduction devices” (or other pompous definitions), they are really
proud of their stuff. I have no issue with buying anything for the looks as
long as you have the honesty to say so. If
I bought a Rolex, for example, I would never say I bought because it is such an
accurate timepiece. If I put the
optional rear wing on my Jag, I’d never try to get you to believe I drive fast
enough to need or achieve the downforce.
It, to me, just looks neat.
Another reason is that if it looks good and costs a lot,
well….it’s gotta be good. A manufacturer can produce a cable of
"exotic" design and beautiful appearance for, perhaps, $5 a
foot. He can then choose to sell it for
$10 per foot or $750 a foot. If it looks
good enough, he might decide to market it as exceptionally high-end and sell it
for the higher amount knowing that those with a higher disposable income, but
no particular knowledge of basic acoustic science, will assume if it is priced
at $750 it MUST be better and will, accordingly, sound better. Once the cables are changed out their eyes
will widen and their jaws will drop at the amazing increase in sound stage,
transparency, texture and openness the new cables provide. And….this actually is science...the field we
know as psychology.
I have Kimber Kables going to my B&W’s. I love them because they really look
cool. Got them free when I bought the
speakers.
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