Why do I need power management if I have a great power cord?
Isn't it kind of unnecessary to additionally add a power conditioner if I have an expensive audio file grade Power cord connected to a component?
So you buy a Power conditioner from a hi-fi store and they say oh, you need a really good power cord to go with that and then another one to go from conditioner to the component. Do you need it all and why? Seems the last couple of feet before the component should be more than enough.
The bottom line is you need to deliver plenty of power reserves to your amp to allow it to make good bass response. It isn't as simple as supplying the nameplate current to the amp.
The second half of the question, which is often debated, is, do you need to "clean up the power" to be 120V with "no noise" in it. Many think that isn't necessary since the power is promptly rectified in the amplifier. Others think it makes a huge difference.
The problem I have is when the second effort affects the first. If a power conditioner restricts current availability to address spikes needed to make good bass, it affects the sound.
Everybody wants to sell more stuff. But if a power conditioner comes with a 14 gauge cord on it, then I would suggest passing, it isn't designed to provide power for the spikes. The exception would be if a power conditioner has provisions to store power internally to address the spikes. Need to makes sure impedance doesn't limit the ability to address fast spikes.
Bottom line is, putting anything upstream of an amp except a heaver (10 awg) power cord has a lot pitfalls that for sure some manufacturers don't address. Do your research. If possible, demonstrate the conditioner in home and have someone help you with a blind test vs plugged directly into the wall.
You don’t need any of it. People are preying on you and making you feel like your missing something. It’s all about the “UPSELL” in retail audio. You’re not missing anything.
Usually, I think about 90%+ the answer is because your system will sound much better. Mine always has. My neighborhood has underground power and I have two direct lines to my system; one for my components and one for my amp. The power seems very stable… but my system sounds significantly better with a conditioner.
I recently tried a Cardas power distribution strip ($1,500, with great cords attached to it) instead of my power conditioner… it took a couple second to hear the drop in sound quality. This is what most… but not all people experience. You could be one of the lucky ones… but odds are not in your favor.
You don’t need any of it. People are preying on you and making you feel like your missing something. It’s all about the “UPSELL” in retail audio. You’re not missing anything.
People who say it's all snake oil raise two questions for me:
1. Do you think that these cords and conditioners have just been fooling everyone for decades? And they are too stupid to realize it and too deluded to know that they are not hearing a difference? If your answer is "yes" then you have a very low opinion of thousands of audiophiles.
2. Have you tried it? And if you had and it made no difference *to you* are you then just willing to extrapolate from one example to everyone else who does hear a difference?
You don’t need any of it. People are preying on you and making you feel like your missing something. It’s all about the “UPSELL” in retail audio. You’re not missing anything.
All of the electronics to clean up the power is already inside each component…. in or around the power supply, that’s why many people say their amp sounds better without a power conditioner. It’s because you’re choking the power twice when you use a power conditioner. The engineering department at the company that makes your equipment has already done this for you. Buying anything else it’s just a waste of time and money
I just saw your questions. I’ve spent thousands and thousands of dollars on all of this junk and it didn’t make a difference to me or any of my friends that I had over two here for themselves. All of my componentry is Macintosh it all has the stock power cords and all of my inner K’NEX are from Best Buy or Amazon. I have no noise in my system whatsoever. There’s no need for any of that redundancy
@raysmtb1Thanks. So there's you, your friends plus I guess others with your conclusions. Then there are thousands who testify to a difference. Shall we call it a draw and agree that it's important for people to test it out for themselves? You did that and have reached a justified conclusion...for your ears, setup, etc.
Sorry, you are conflating issues. First of all, yes, you are right, one of the major improvements in components is how it address power. This is one of the keys to great sounding components… correct. But the more the more better. For instance, I added a $9,000 power supply to a $9,000 DAC (Sim Moon. 650D adding the 820 dedicated power supply)… big difference. This is why flagship components are frequently two box components, with one remote box dedicated to just the power supply.
A really good power conditioner, and direct lines I have put in have significantly improved my sound quality above that.
A power amp has different requirements. It needs unconstricted current or it is going to loose dynamics. So, most of us with high end systems use a direct line to the amplifier with no power conditioner and use a power conditioner for our other components… lowering the noise floor… by the way, something you do not hear directly. It takes experience to understand what a noise floor “sounds like”… you don’t hear it. It is the blackness in the background.. the comforting silence that makes you relax and fall into the comfort of nothing.
You could throw dedicated circuits into the mix too. When I listen to my Mcintosh 611 mono blocks the meters usually say that they’re drawing around 6 W each which is plenty loud. I’m not a scientist but if you do the math for watts to amps that means that the amp is only drawing .5 amps each. Combined, those two giant looking amplifiers are only using around 1 amp out of the 20 A available on a dedicated circuit. Actually, you’re only supposed to use around 15 A out of the available 20. So that means that you have 14 A of electricity left to use before you even come close to using up the available power. Many of these amplifiers today are made to look mean and power-hungry because that’s what sells.
Thank you for the explanation of the noise floor. I really didn’t sign on to audio Gon tonight looking for a beef. I guess some of you guys are hearing something, I tried to hear it and spent a bunch of money in the process and nothing.… I wish it did work for me because I’ve got the time and the money and I would go all in if I did.
I’m not trying to change anyone I’m only trying to be a voice for the new people that stumble onto some of this craziness. Good night, enjoy the music.
There is an amazing amount to highend audio. I am a scientist, trained and worked for a living as one for over ten years, before graduate school. I quickly realized there were too many variables to account for what is any of what I heard as easily, explainable by easily with a few variables. In the last forty years of working with engineers constructing leading edge audio equipment and spending thousands of hours evaluating components and the nuances of the effect of components, interconnects, and tweaks I have learned a lot.
High end audio is a very complex endeavor… full of ambiguity and complexity. I am doing my best to coach those new to the endeavor to take the shortest path to what they are trying to achieve… assuming that is outstandingly satisfying sound quality. So, I try to educate folks on the nuances as best I can. Sources like The Absolute Sound, Stereophile can be really helpful… perhaps the best source as a starting point is Robert Harley’s The Compete Guide to the High End. This really lays out the basics of high end audio.
I appreciate your interest in sharing your observations and interest. It is a great and rewarding pursuit.
. . . I’m only trying to be a voice for the new people that stumble onto some of this craziness.
Interesting.
Long-time Audiogon members are trying to do the exact same thing for newbies. Share their knowledge that’s been gained over decades of experience - trial & error.
Your approach appears to be zero sum. For you to be right, everybody else must be wrong. For veteran audio buffs, that’s a non-starter.
@nonoise Agreed. Are you ready for none of them to answer my two questions? They won’t, I predict. (Bracing for powerful challenge in 3...2...1...)
Queue the response, 1…2…3…<and>…4
People who say it’s all snake oil raise two questions for me:
1. Do you think that these cords and conditioners have just been fooling everyone for decades? And they are too stupid to realize it and too deluded to know that they are not hearing a difference? If your answer is "yes" then you have a very low opinion of thousands of audiophiles.
2. Have you tried it? And if you had and it made no difference *to you* are you then just willing to extrapolate from one example to everyone else who does hear a difference?
People spruicking power conditioners have the onus on them to show that their product does something.
It is not intellectually appropriate to do a Greco Roman reversal, set up a Kafka’esque trail for the non-believers to offer some testimonial based counter point against the largely testimonial group that likes the power conditioners.
For one it is hard to disprove/prove a negative.
The ifi, for instance, shows the wall noise decreasing with one of their units.
How hard is it to show that some product works as described?
Everybody wants to sell more stuff. But if a power conditioner comes with a 14 gauge cord on it, then I would suggest passing, it isn’t designed to provide power for the spikes. The exception would be if a power conditioner has provisions to store power internally to address the spikes. Need to makes sure impedance doesn’t limit the ability to address fast spikes.
Note to future self @holmz
“When you make a product, then use a large cable, so it looks like it should really work.”
Naysayers’ reasons include:
1) they don’t know what they don’t know
2) they think they know more than they know
3) arrogance
4) ignorance
5) savior complex
6) fear - that their structured world will come crashing down if they’re wrong
7) poor hearing
8) low resolution audio system
9) old guy ’get off my lawn’ stubbornness
10) learning something new requires curiosity and humility
11) they don’t really understand what ’noise’ and/or ’black background’ is
12) they think that proper wire gauge is a panacea
13) ?
^This broad ad hominem attack^ is really nice. It shotguns out wide, and points out all the possible flaws that one can have. Plus it stays emotional, which is more powerful than facts.
It is so encompassing that it also hit the OP, so he is either (pick 1-13) , or needs the gear to be in the “in crowd”.
At least a few people just want to have a factual way to know if something will work before buying it. And I assume that the OP may be somewhat in that group.
But instead of offering any reason or fact, y’all convert it into a circling of the wagons against a naysayer attack, before the attack even began. It is pretty intellectually shameful, but it is great psychology to get everyone in locked step and the coherent message out early.
At least by providing the list of the 13 reasons is appearing like more than Kafka got during his trial.
And Kafka was the one trail “without reason”, whereas what we have here is a trail, but no actual dependent having been nominated.
So maybe it’s just forward thinking to come up with the arguments against the naysayer(s), before they had even appeared in the thread?
I am sure that there are a few people somewhere in the middle, that want to know if the devices work, and when they are needed… Rather than reading vilifications against people who discount the devices who are not yet even present. It seems like it sets a bad tone for dialogue to start out with an attack using the baker’s dozen.
How are we to know when to use a device?
How are we to know which style of device to use?
How are the devices designed to work?
Noise suppression
Voltage stability / reshaping
Under/over voltage protection
etc
How does one know when they do not need such a device?
I assume that I do not need one because I have a lack of any noise/hiss etc when it is on, but not playing any music.
And when it is playing simple sounds it is clear and sounds pretty good.
Or is there more to it?
And if so what is it?
@holmz "I assume that I do not need one because I have a lack of any noise/hiss etc when it is on, but not playing any music."
Thank you Holmz, brilliant point, assuming you run it loud. You are quite lucky if you hear nothing at all at top volume setting. My system and most others has a little low level white noise at that level. One can measure how far down it is. And test if a $1500 power cord removes or reduces it. It won't, so try a $15,000 cord. A mains conditioner might.
Changing a power cord can do nothing apart from deplete your bank balance. It makes no measurable difference to the power entering your amplifier.
Adding a conditioner can clean up your power if it is dirty. In such case it can make a measurable difference evidenced by removal of low-level noise artifacts. In extreme cases such difference can be heard, like if you're running a fridge on the same circuit.
All else is hogwash. And a lot of hogs are getting washed.
@holmz "I assume that I do not need one because I have a lack of any noise/hiss etc when it is on, but not playing any music."
Thank you Holmz, brilliant point, assuming you run it loud.
I do when I am assessing whether or not there is a noise issue.
You are quite lucky if you hear nothing at all at top volume setting. My system and most others has a little low level white noise at that level. One can measure how far down it is. And test if a $1500 power cord removes or reduces it. It won’t, so try a $15,000 cord. A mains conditioner might …
…
I have had some issues in the past.
I recall once a slight ground hum that was cleared up with rerouting wiring and star grounds.
I had a bad hum on the that was the result of the lighting circuit in the ceiling above that room
But only affecting the TT
Most of my gear is still on a 230–>115v transformer, so maybe that acts like a choke to limit noise or harmonics?
Or is my current preamp or amp just an odd ball low noise case?
It does make a hum on the TT input, with that starting at about 2-3 o’clock on volume (6:30 to 5:30 is the total swing of the volume… so starting ~ 3/4.)
I usually never run it past ~1 o’clock as that is about 95 dB(A) in the slow setting… depending on the music.
However on other inputs there is no hiss even at max volume.
This is with the head down in front of the left speaker.
The inside SPL is ~40-45 dB(A) with the front door shut, and the refrigerator running in the other room is the majority of the humming background sound.
With the front door open is 52 dB and the with the AC on is ~55dB ambient SPL background noise level.
I can hear the buzzing of the outside insects n such. But relatively quiet.
It‘s not a question of removing audible hum hiss and noise. I have no such issues yet have garnered definite audible improvements with the use of a PS Audio P10 and an industrial 1KW isolation transformer (used individually) upstream on certain system components.
@ghdprentice"High end audio is a very complex endeavor… full of ambiguity and complexity."
Well said. The problem is not "trying to prove a negative," as someone else said, the problem is to hear something that one does not yet know how to hear. Hearing is mostly interpretation and only partly physical. One needs to know what to listen for.
I think of the days before OLED TV’s. People would say, "This IS a black background." Then, much blacker blacks came along and people could now see that they had been missing something. And it was not just the blacks. It was everything on the screen. Everything gets better -- and the whole experience gets better.
So, the first reaction -- "This is just 'up-selling' or 'snake oil' -- turns out to be wrong. What folks came to learn was that quieting visual noise (making backgrounds blacker) changes the foreground by changing the background. That is very hard for people to understand, because they are focused -- almost exclusively -- on what is in the foreground. The fundamental mistake they make is to disconnect foreground and background. They are entangled for both perception and conception. @mahgistermakes this point very well when he tries to direct attention to the room's acoustics. But his point applies very well to the technological devices' designs and their power sources, too.
This point about the "blacker background" applies pari passu to other things besides background noise; the way highs, mids, bass registers are expressed by speakers, the way transients and dynamics are shaped. And the technologies that make all these areas better are often not easy to grok, which is why your suggestions of resources like Robert Harley is so appropriate.
It‘s not a question of removing audible hum hiss and noise. I have no such issues yet have garnered definite audible improvements with the use of a PS Audio P10 and an industrial 1KW isolation transformer (used individually) upstream on certain system components.
... When I listen to my Mcintosh 611 mono blocks the meters usually say that they’re drawing around 6 W each ... if you do the math for watts to amps that means that the amp is only drawing .5 amps each
Those meters show power output, and even then they don't show peak levels. The meters don't show power consumption, which you can be sure is much more than the output. That's because the amplifier isn't 100 percent efficient, and wastes some power that it dissipates as heat.
I’m not trying to change anyone I’m only trying to be a voice for the new people that stumble onto some of this craziness.
Everyone has a voice here. That's the point. I'm usually dubious when a user pretends to speak for or "protect" others.
My system has all digital sources and each time I've upgraded the power conditioner the improvement in detail, soundstage, resolution and especially the bass performance has been significant. I suspect that the cleaner AC power allows the DAC to perform better.
I've also bought high end interconnects and power cords, and when I deployed higher-end interconnect, I enjoyed better sound quality, but the resulting improvement wasn't as great as the improvements from upgrading the power conditioner.
I can't speak to vinyl-based systems, but for digital sourced systems my vote would be "yes" for upgrading the power conditioner.
@hilde45People who say it’s all snake oil raise two questions for me:
1. Do you think that these cords and conditioners have just been fooling everyone for decades? And they are too stupid to realize it and too deluded to know that they are not hearing a difference? If your answer is "yes" then you have a very low opinion of thousands of audiophiles.
My answer is yes to your first question, but your own conclusion is incorrect. It doesn’t require a detailed knowledge of logical and/or formal fallacies to understand why that may be so.
I think that using the word stupid isn’t very nice, by the way, but using careless reasoning is disingenuous . Anyway, cords and conditioners, being inanimate, can’t fool anyone. People can, and do.
+1 hilde45
The video comparison with "black background" rings true. Same principle applies in framing pictures. Or plant a rose garden in an empty lot -- you may think it looks fine until you surround it with a hedge of dark yews. Now you see what you've been missing, with sharper resolution of both form and color. Similarly, lower the noise floor in an audio system and your resolution improves.
Not saying any particular change will be noticeable in OP's system. Just that the principle is valid as applied to hearing as well as seeing (and to other sensory appreciation too, well beyond the scope of OP's question).
@hickamoreAgreed. Mileage varies, but the thing about calling it all BS is that the denier gets the relief of emotional closure. Not denying them that pleasure; the problem emerges when their closure is proffered as empirical proof for a more general claim. That's where they go wrong, though others seeking closure like to pile on to support their faulty reasoning.
noske, I asked of deniers, "Do you think that these cords and conditioners have just been fooling everyone for decades?" For the record, your answer is "yes."
I’ll agree we should remove the word "stupid" and let the person who thinks *everyone* has been fooled *for decades* use their own adjective to characterize so many people buying useless gear -- or just forego attaching any adjectives at all. This is a hobby. Let people have their audio kabuki!
There is nothing careless about that reasoning. Thinking so is reasoning carelessly.
Just make sure you have large gauge cords for your amp. Because after dozens, and likely hundreds, of feet of 14 gauge romex, that last 3 feet of 10 ga copper will make all the difference.
And now that I've solved the power issue herein, thank you, what do I do about nonstop landscaper noise now that spring is here?
Ever since they invented the leaf blower things have never been the same. Carrying a jet engine on your back and walking around the neighborhood is impacting Quality of life substantially. It's like a frog in gradually heating water we never really recognized this problem as it grew and now it's too late. Somehow it's very important to remove every last leaf on the lawn and be absolutely neurotic about edging. Are brooms still being sold?
We no longer can see most of the stars at night and now we can't enjoy peacefulness during the day.
Power cords obey Ohm’s Law. Voltage drops across them can cause a very measurable loss of power in an amplifier. In that manner it can affect distortion and output impedance too.
The voltage drop is easy to measure with a regular digital voltmeter. So this isn’t anything mysterious.
A good power conditioner is helpful too. A glorified power strip that gets called a ’power conditioner’ is not. The latter forces all the equipment to obtain its power through the same power cord, FWIW.
A proper power conditioner will not limit current, it will be able to guarantee the AC sine wave distortion (you’ll see that in its specs) and should be able to regulate the AC line voltage. One of the more pesky AC line aberrations is the 5th harmonic, which can cause power transformers to become noisy, power rectifiers to become noisy and can affect synchronous motors found in turntables and tape machines.
There are very few power conditioners offered to high end audio that can do everything I’ve mentioned here.
That means that most people on this thread, in particular those that think power conditioners don’t make a difference, simply haven’t heard what a proper conditioner can actually do. Its not as if they are wrong; most of what they have heard simply doesn't work!
That is why there is controversy on this topic.
I know of only two power conditioners that seem to work. One is made by PSAudio. The other was made by a company called Elgar, who got out of the power conditioning market a long time ago, so if you find one of their conditioners (they show up on ebay) its likely it will have to be refurbished.
A proper power conditioner has to have active components- if passive (for example a choke or transformer is all that’s involved) it won’t work. To give you an idea of why, let’s take the Elgar as an example. It has a low distortion 60Hz oscillator that is synchronized to the incoming AC power. The AC power goes through an isolation transformer that also has windings to run the conditioner’s internal power supplies. Feedback is taken from the output and compared to the low distortion oscillator; this correction voltage is applied to the isolation transformer as correction (through a power amplifier built in); in addition it also is used to buck the output voltage so that voltage is thus regulated without current limiting.
That’s a bit of sophistication! If you don’t have that in your power conditioner, it can’t filter out the 5th harmonic, it won’t be able to correct line voltage, it won’t be able to provide a clean AC waveform to your stereo. Put another way, +90% of all ’high end audio’ ’conditioners’ are so much junk.
If y’all want to argue about this topic, at least have the facts available!
Whenever I read these threads about the value of (type your product of choice here) I think about my own journey towards great sound. If I may, I would throw out this analogy. You wouldn’t notice the difference in the mirror if you have gained an ounce, but you sure can tell the difference if you put on 20 pounds. I believe my stereo system is a bit like this. Did I hear a big improvement with any individual change, be it an upgrade in power cords, the addition of my Furman conditioner, putting my speakers on platforms, ISO Acoustics under my turntable……… The answer would be no. Does my system sound freaking awesome at the end of it all? YES. Sometimes the whole is truly greater than the sum of its parts. Is this where I drop the microphone? 😁
From Audio Research VT80SE manual. This manufacturer gets it:
"A.C. Power Connection It is important that the VT80 SE be connected via its supplied 20 amp IEC 12-gauge power cord to a secure, dedicated A.C. power receptacle. Never connect to convenience power receptacles on other equipment. Only use the power switch on the front of the VT80 SE for On/Off control of the amplifier, or the 12V start-up trigger for remote installations. The AC power source for the VT80 SE amplifier should be capable of supplying 10 amperes for 100 or 120 volt units, or 5 amperes for 220 or 240 volt units. For the very best performance on 100 or 120 volt circuits, the VT80 SE should be connected to its own AC power circuit branch, protected by a 15 amp breaker. The preamplifier and other audio equipment should be connected to a different power circuit and breaker. "
Note that it requires 10 amps at 120V. That is 1200 Watts. Nameplate wattage for this amp is 200 watts at low power. This is the concept that many "audiophiles" reject.
It’s been fun and interesting reading all these responses this morning. I didn’t mean to hijack this thread from the author. I have a question for those of you out there that believe that the majority of these products make a difference. Let’s use transparent cable as an example. Their interconnects range in price from a few hundred dollars to $37,000 for a pair. What makes them worth $37,000 a pair? Just to give a reference of what $37,000 will buy, here is a list of the top 10 cars that $37,000 will get you.
10 Best Luxury Cars Under $35,000
2022 Buick Encore GX..
2022 Cadillac CT4. ...
2022 Acura ILX. ...
2022 Mini Countryman. ...
2022 Buick Envision. ...
2022 BMW X2. ...
2022 Lexus UX. ...
2022 Mercedes-Benz A-Class.
I know I know this is America you can charge whatever you want blah blah blah. Don’t you think that this kind of makes people wonder what kind of voodoo is making two pieces of wire worth $37,000. Do you think it helps or hurts the argument that something weird is going on?
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