Why Do Cables Matter?

Because, sometimes it's not what you hear,it's what you don't hear.

For your entry level gear they won’t matter as much

To explain where I am coming from, I got me a pair of liquid filled interconnects that cost nearly as much as my preamp.  Fortunately, I got them used for much less.  The change these cables made to my audio system is astounding.  Would that I could upgrade all of my cables to that level.  Only it would cost me more than what I paid for my first house and I can’t bring myself to do that.  It always comes down to, “how far are you willing to take it?”

btw- tweaks are fun and they do not have to be expensive.

I find I can agree only with your last paragraph.  You make inferences that cables are simple and easy to make but I haven’t seen much from you to substantiate that.  What then is the proper pricing structure for cables be it Cu, Ag, or Au alloys?  What about the structure and weave of the cable and the insulators used?  Or should not pricing be based on performance?  What is Uber expensive in your mind?  Is an amp, speaker or turntable that costs as much as a 550 HP luxury car overpriced in your mind then?

I will tell you that I know very little about the engineering and design of audio cables but I do know something about wire.  I worked with wire in Aerospace and Automotive.  There the primary goals were fatigue resistance and joint integrity.  Other requirements included noise rejection and EMI emissions.  Wire harnesses can get complicated very quickly and especially when working with high frequencies- ie. 5 kHz and above.

I also know the economics of production.  Low volume, handmade boutique level gear, be it cables, amps or turntables will be costly.  No avoiding that.  A handmade watch that costs $100k cannot keep time as well as a $100 quartz watch but which one looks and feels good on the arm?  No, I myself would never spend that on a watch but I’d love to buy a pair of speakers…

I used to manufacture cable and have lots of experiments that revealed to me that the connectors  and soldering are even more important than the wire itself

I hate the process of buying cables and I managed to find cables from a company that does it well. So I spent a lot buying speaker cables interconnects and power cords.  

I bought the mid upper tier Products they offered. Extreme stuff is ridiculo… I'm very content with the purchases and very happy I don't have to revisit the process of choosing cables.

The name of the company is transparent

I did buy some quality ethernet cable's and HDMI cable's from audio quest which I think do these areas very well.

When putting together my first audio chain, my target was linear neutral so that I can better evaluate component upgrades Years of research for cables using reviews to create a hierarchy of price/performance got thrown out the window after this review for the newer model Siltech Classic cables:

https://hifiplus.com/articles/siltech-classic-legend-cables/#:~:text=Classic%20Legend%20is%20an%20extremely,the%20way%20of%20the%20second

Prior I was targeting the MIT cables at Equis Audio because they seemed like a bargain as their features competed with their more expensive cables.

Reviewers most often review quality components, so sometimes you’d have to read between the lines to find an exceptional product.
“Within a few minutes of serious listening, my first note on the page was “Why haven’t I used Siltech Cables more often?” Alan seemed “surprised” in a positive way- unusual for a seasoned reviewer.

”Classic Legend is an extremely neutral conductor, adding or subtracting next to nothing to the sound of the equipment. It’s also extremely consistent:…” is exactly what I was looking for.

So coupled with this great review, Siltech’s reputation for sonic excellence, Siltech’s seemingly extensive experience with silver purification for audio I purchased my interconnects. At least with this cable I can understand refined Silver, and I’ll buy gold filling in gaps is sonically positive, and the price was a reasonable step up from other silver cables.

Tip- at THE Show, I discovered that monocrystal silver is soft and hard to use and make into cable, and that Albedo cables are made with monocrystal silver as Albedo are “jewelers by trade”. If I want to try out other silver cables like for speakers, I may give them a try.

@tonywinga I'm going through the same process now with my ZUs. I really really didn't want to audition cables again and believed I was set in that area forever. Nope.

I'll tell you guys a story.  This isn't easy for me to talk about.  So I have wanted some Wilson Audio speakers for a long time.  I loved my Thiel CS6 speakers but I had to get me a pair of Wilsons.  I revamped my system from the ground up and made my dedicated listening room acoustically friendly.  I thought I was ready for the Wilsons.  I was sure that I would be able to insert them into my system- plug n play.  Ha!.  I got my Wilsons and ended up replacing every single cable and power cord.  Lucky for me I was able to do that or I wouldn't have kept the speakers.  I should have known better because I went through the exact same thing when I got the Thiel speakers years ago.

Meanwhile, I finally found a buyer for my Thiels.  I set them up in my shop with a bluetooth SMSL amp that I use on the back porch and with some old, old Monster Cable speaker wire.  Now, my shop is insulated and the walls are covered with perforated masonite.  So it is just about hemianechoic.  I had the speakers just sitting on a blanket on the concrete floor and about 6 feet apart and 15 feet from the back wall.  My shop is 30x30.  I sat down to take a listen before the buyer arrived and I was blown away.  The Thiels sounded so good I got sick to my stomach.  The bass was as good I had ever heard from them.  The imaging was crisp like a pair of Maggies.    After listening to a few songs I could hear differences compared to the Wilsons, but this still was a set up that I could have just about lived with.  I spent a lot of money to get that last 20% out of my system.  At that point the buyer was almost there and I really don't need multiple systems so I let them go.  The bass, the soundstage, the detail and clarity are all clearly better with the Wilsons but I'm saying that Theil speakers have got to be the best bargain in hifi these days.  They just need plenty of room around them to perform their best.

Thank you kind sir. 
I have achieved stereostasis- at least for now. 
My wife doesn’t believe me.  So I’m not changing anything for a while just to prove her wrong. 

@tonywinga you have a very nice system also. 

because in my experience over many years, i have found that very expensive cables don’t out-perform well chosen, reasonably priced ones

That is true for any component of an audio system.  Why make it sound like it is the case only for cables?  

You have some really nice gear so I believe you.  On the other hand, there are many paths to stereo fulfillment.  

May not be for audiophiles but there are shielded speaker cables in the market.

Seems to be a lot of bot/AI paranoia if a person, new person posts something that goes against the consensus around here. Very amusing. 

https://www.showmecables.com/12-2-belden-5000fe-shielded-speaker-cable-gray-1000-ft?srsltid=AR57-fDvl_w-C3fBZ6FcZxsgmZQDPrJZqFEME1hRJjrhkea3gdz5adrNnRU

cleeds

5,094 posts

06-14-2023 at 10:57am 

tokushi

Specialized speaker cables often incorporate shielding to protect the audio signal from external electromagnetic interference.

I've been at this a long time and have never seen a shielded speaker cable. If they're so common, @tokushi why don't you provide a link to a few?

I am afraid his thesis / write up was AI generated. Otherwise known as a "bot". You are wasting your time.

tokushi

Specialized speaker cables often incorporate shielding to protect the audio signal from external electromagnetic interference.

I've been at this a long time and have never seen a shielded speaker cable. If they're so common, @tokushi why don't you provide a link to a few?

why should someone not evaluate nose bleed cables for an ultra nosebleed system ??

key to remember is that good quality hifi cables need NOT to be very expensive, and as a rule, one should stay away from those in nosebleed territory, even for very good systems

Why?  If so, then perhaps everyone should stay away from all audio gear in nosebleed territory.  You gotta pay to play.  We work to refine and improve our audio systems over time- sometimes we hit a dead end and have to start over or let go of a favorite component because it is just not working well in our system.  Cables are as much as a component as anything else in our audio system.  

I don’t like the idea of spending my hard earned money on a cable anymore than anyone else.  It’s just as bad as having to pay for an expensive car repair.  I go for sound over looks but I can appreciate how some cable manufacturers make their cables look like jewelry.  Some can at least feel like they got something more for their money.  Here’s the reality:  $100k worth of speakers, amps, preamps and source are going to require something around $25k in power cords and cables.  If you are aspiring to get to that level of a system, better budget for cables up front.  Don’t agree?  Well, those with that level of system or higher are nodding their heads.

Perhaps a better piece of advice is to stay within your means when it comes to this hobby.  We all have our passions and it’s fun to play in the high end HiFi arena.  When you find a bargain on a high end amp or a pair of speakers just remember:  they simply will never perform at their best if you scrimp on cables.  

I was at the Ford Proving Grounds in the early 1990’s.  The Mustang group was in the adjacent bays.  I noticed at the beginning of the week they had a large stack of tires sitting there.  I could hear tires squealing all day as they drove the cars on the tire test track.  They would wear out a set of tires on each car in a day.  I was surprised to see that large stack of tires was gone by the end of the week.  One of the engineers remarked to me that for all the work the Mustang group does evaluating tires and finding the best tire for ride and handling, most people will just replace their worn tires with the cheapest set they can find.

It is understandable that the topic of speaker cables can be confusing, given the wide range of opinions and perspectives on the matter. While it's true that the internal wiring within amplifiers and speakers typically uses plain copper wires of lower gauges, the discussion around specialized speaker cables focuses on optimizing the signal transfer between the amplifier and the speakers. Here are a few points to consider:

1. Signal Integrity: Speaker cables are designed to minimize resistance, inductance (L), and capacitance (C) along the signal path. Lower resistance ensures efficient power transmission, minimizing power loss and allowing for accurate signal reproduction. Reduced inductance and capacitance help maintain signal integrity by minimizing distortion and phase shifts.

2. Shielding and Interference: Specialized speaker cables often incorporate shielding to protect the audio signal from external electromagnetic interference. This shielding can help maintain the purity of the signal and prevent any potential degradation caused by nearby electronic devices or power cables.

3. Long Cable Runs: In setups with long cable runs or challenging environments, such as high electromagnetic interference areas, the quality and design of the speaker cables become even more important. Higher-quality cables can mitigate signal degradation over longer distances, ensuring that the full potential of the audio signal is delivered to the speakers.

4. System Synergy: While it is true that a system is only as strong as its weakest link, it is also important to consider the overall synergy of the components. High-quality speaker cables can complement the capabilities of the amplifier and speakers, allowing for a more cohesive and optimized audio reproduction. Matching the quality of the speaker wires with the existing internal wires can help maintain the overall system's performance.

Ultimately, the choice of speaker cables comes down to personal preference, budget, and the specific requirements of the audio system. It's important to strike a balance between investing in quality cables and ensuring that the overall system is optimized for the best possible audio experience.

I recall over two decades ago, I did not believe that cables made a significant difference.  I reluctantly tried an expensive ($400), Transparent RCA interconnect cable to my Gamut power amplifier and MSB Platinum CD player.

Within the first 5 seconds of the music playing , I started laughing out loud as the difference was enormous.

IMO, cables make a huge difference - although some yield a subtle difference.  Finding the right combo for your ears and ,set up is the key.

...we only have marketing hype to evaluate products

Truer words were never spoken.

The only thing I ever bought in a HiFi shop that I didn’t evaluate in my system were Spica TC-50... about forty years ago.

We do not expect a "Guarantee".  We are will aware that the advised cable may not bring subjectively desirable results in our own systems.  But reporting the experience in actual use what they had before and after is very helpful, otherwise beyond basic cable build knowledge we only have marketing hype to evaluate products.

Cables make a difference. I’ve said that for over 50 years.

What is not guaranteed is that any particular cable in any particular system will effect a change or be an improvement to all. Regardless of all the marketing claims.

Advising someone to try what you own has an even chance of being bad advice. AND I NEVER do it.

@nonoise : +1. Spot on, and, very funny!

It's the same old tired argument told in as many ways as they can collectively think of: that it's all in your mind. Talk about weak tea. They have absolutely zero rebuttals to mentioning this other than to go on and keep saying it, like some kind of mantra. 

Kinda like clicking your heels together and saying "there's no place like home, there's no place like home..."

And then all the bad guys go away.

All the best,
Nonoise

Just try it. Decide for yourself.

This unfortunately has nothing to do with trying. These folks never try anything, they just steer the pot in audio forums. That’s all they do, their reason for being. Feeling appropriate. See the post above mine. You will get the gist of it

Shame some people just come to these threads to throw stones.

Stating provable facts isn't throwing stones.

"my system sounds fantastic" and could be made not so with a single cable mismatch.

Sometimes you have to wake a sleepwalker so they don't fall down the stairs.

@rodman99999 ...Some companies offer a 30 Day Satisfaction Guarantee, so- those that are actually interested, have absolutely nothing to lose, by trying (experimenting with) such...

There. Eliminate the mystery, and 1000 questions. Just try it. Decide for yourself.

Okay time to say goodbye, not sure about magic bullets, my system sounds fantastic and if a component is not contributing to my musical enjoyment, off it goes. Shame some people just come to these threads to throw stones.

MasterBuilt are probably fine cables. Like all cables, they interact with the source and load. There is no Magic Bullet.

Their spiel and its ilk are repeated ad nauseum on most every audiophool product page. 😵

@ieales What's Best Forums, common man.😎 You should check the place out, tons of information from engineers, manufacturers and consumers. 

​​​​​​​Now if the Wife's Best Friend is hot I may check her site out too. 

 https://www.whatsbestforum.com/forums/masterbuilt-audio.399/

Nice people post links. WBF* search is hopeless.

* Wife's Best Friend?

What does WBF stand for? (abbreviations.com)

On the WBF forum, Master-Built cables were discussed.  These cables were designed as a side job by the government scientists who work on superconductors.  Debate went on back on forth on what the cable manufacturers claimed.  Iirc In this debate included scientists and engineers.  After the debate went on for awhile, a one of the scientist answered in a very technical way beyond my understanding.  From this I concluded that specialists in the field are much more knowledgeable than others including academics, scientists, engineers, etc.  

I don’t need to understand why before I buy, I’m just interested in price/performance or more specifically sonic performance.

That’s hilarious! Are they trying to kick over a trash container with a weighted bottom?

I’ve got a pair of Klipschorns that are sitting mostly unused in my living room. They are temporarily hooked up to a receiver with two very different cables. One is thick and fairly short. The other is much longer and extremely thin gage. It’s just whatever was sitting around. I kind of expected to hear a little image shifting due to the cable difference but it doesn’t do that. Center panned vocals are dead center no matter how loud I turn it up. That may come down to the efficiency of the speakers and the relatively low amount of current that has to be pushed through that crazy thin and long speaker wire. 

The speakers sound to me like they've always sounded in this room, regardless of amp or cable I've tried. Someone highly experienced with hearing cable and amp differences may notice the changes but I'm too distracted by the overall speaker/room interaction effect to hear more subtle effects as important.

How about I hear a change in sound when I change banana plugs or replace a fuse.

And I have an Atoll In200, Aquarius DAC, and 'heavely' modified Infinity Beta 50 speakers 😁

It's been so entertaining watching the ladies get into a cat fight over the OP's rhetorical question that I may cancel NetFlix.

@audphile1 

"... You simply don’t want to hear the difference"

+1 

Just a wild guess, less than $2,000 a pair? If so, who in the right mind would spend $2,000 on speaker wire for speakers costing a few hundred bucks? 

I once had $3k cables on speakers that cost me ≈$400 forty years ago.

Kimber BiFocal and bi-wired, XO recapped Spica TC-50. Scarily musical.

I laugh when I hear $50k speakers. Mostly because they are badly designed wrt to time coherence.

soix 6,892 posts 06-06-2023 at 05:17pm

I won’t even bother reading this ridiculous thread. I’ll only say just put crap tires on a Ferrari or Porsche and see what that gets you. Chain only as strong as the cheapest link. Underspend on cables at your own peril. They’re a necessary evil, so just deal with it.

————-

@soix …. you nailed it , sir! “Point, Set, and Match!” in tennis jargon.

There exists an undeniable embedded schism in this hobby that is shared in every audio forum The cold, hard fact is that it’s a binary choice belief based on personal experience in these all too-often and oft-repeated disputed cable values challenges.

Simply put, there is a minority cohort of cable naysayers that are polar opposites and diametrically opposed to the cable advocates; with an absolute zero success of either side ever convincing the other camp of changing their position.

As @soix clearly and eloquently summarized in his post …. Do watcha want and carry on…. Fine ,…. No worries …. But kindly resist an urge of floating futile, boring, and entirely predictable stand-off result in new cable “yay or nay cable value” posts .

the following quote fits:

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”

Albert Esinstein

if you don't like them return them, nothing complicated here...try something else or not...

@thyname I have several speakers, and different types of speakers, of various prices (though by the way I have not found that price determines musical satisfaction level nor even necessarily correlates with it).  Some I've had for a long and satisfying time, and some are newer.  

But it ain’t my speakers that are at issue here.

@jasonbourne71 Wrote:

Blame it on Noel Lee! In the Days of Yore audio hobbyists used zip cord - and nobody cared or complained! Then in 1976 Mr. Lee started selling 10 gauge fine multi-strand cable in a clear jacket. He called it Monster Cable and it was an overnight success! Lee claimed his cable was better because the high frequencies traveled faster on the outside and the bass frequencies had more oomph due to the thickness of the cable. Cleaner, clearer highs and greater bass mojo compared to zip cord! All these claims by Lee were unsubstantiated by any lab measurements! He said " just listen". The "My golden ears told me it is so" crowd fell for this hype and bought miles of Monster Cable, making Noel Lee a multi-millionaire! Soon other entrepreneurs took notice and started their own wire businesses. They discovered that all you need was a nicely made product with a catchy name and a liberal amount of print spin (this was pre- Internet). Lab measurements not needed!

I agree!+2

Mike

@curtdr :

People need to justify their "chase" and expenditures thereof. Of course your system will sound better to you if you spend $2000 on speaker wire... it has to, or you have to admit your foolery. If your system doesn’t sound right, get different speakers instead of chasing the snake-wires.

What are your speakers?

Just a wild guess, less than $2,000 a pair? If so, who in the right mind would spend $2,000 on speaker wire for speakers costing a few hundred bucks? 
 

‘You crackheads crack me up

@audphile1 : +1. These crackheads crack me up. 

@jasonbourne71  +1.  All these claims by Lee were unsubstantiated by any lab measurements! He said " just listen". The "My golden ears told me it is so" crowd fell for this hype and bought miles of Monster Cable, making Noel Lee a multi-millionaire! Soon other entrepreneurs took notice and started their own wire businesses. They discovered that all you need was a nicely made product with a catchy name and a liberal amount of print spin (this was pre- Internet). Lab measurements not needed! 

@mrskeptic  +1.They don't and it isn't objectively provable that they do. The people that say "I know what I hear" or similar, are no different than people who believe a random set of stars in the sky has something to do with what happens in their lives.

People need to justify their "chase" and expenditures thereof.  Of course your system will sound better to you if you spend $2000 on speaker wire... it has to, or you have to admit your foolery.  If your system doesn't sound right, get different speakers instead of chasing the snake-wires.  If your system isn't fully satisfying, the wires are not the issue.