Demo'd Harberth speakers...ridiculously bad. I grew up with truly great vintage speakers from Bozak...they still sound better than new Harberth's!
Why are so many companies like harbeth making old speakers designs and charging thousends?
Hi everyone I am a little confused about the speaker market. I had been two dealers that sell totally different products. The one I had been to which I bought my forests from sells Totem And Monitor Audio and B&W. though I went to the other that sells Harbeth And audio note speakers which they recommended me buying. And the problem I have trouble understanding Is when I spend thousands on a speaker. Especially my next big purchase. That has no real new technology and is the size of my dads old conerwalls and never use to cost Thousands to build. With no technological advancements. to a product such as the totem that is small compact and modern for the wife approval , and to be more exact. The new Element line and technologically advanced like the torrent driver. Which I can get the same speaker as the same cost or less of the audio note and Harbeth and dose not need to take up the whole room or look like the 70's. Whats your opinion? Would you buy a product that is a 30 year old design that costs 5 times as more with the only diffinceses as upgraded silver wire and upgraded crossover components. To a thousand dollar woofer that is machined not stamped and has so much magnetic flux that it ca lift a car and no crossover?
84 responses Add your response
Hi Jakecanada, As some have pointed out, the Harbeths look old-school but the technology is not exactly old. The Radial drivers are made in-house in the Harbeth UK factory and the tweeters are sourced from SEAS. The cabinet of the speakers is made and assembled in the UK (British workmanship). The speakers may look "old-fashioned" or cheap to some, but upon closer inspection the build quality of the speakers is high. The new Super HL5 Plus and Compact 7ES3 are my favorite speakers in the Harbeth line. In the end, it is the sound that matters. The Harbeth house sound will not appeal to all, though the speakers are generally a pleasing listen. They are not exactly costly speakers and are considered as mid-end. |
I agree with you Jakecanada on the harbeth speakers as they look like something I can make in my garage. I prefer some science into cabinet structure and resonance compared to a box that may sound ok but when you open it up theres not much to it other than a wooden box. Legacy Audio and B&W among others do tons of research and design for a great sounding speaker that has the perception that your getting a great product for your hard earned dollar. Cheers. D. |
jakecanada there are speakers that have the exact things you specify. You want New Technology & materials,how about "Flax & Inverted Aluminum/Magnesium,ALL designed & constructed COMPLETYELY In House by the manufacturer & NOT in China??Do NOT dominate a room?Do not cost thousands of $?Not SUPER hard to drive?Work in smaller rooms?Extensive bracing & multi internal sections to separate drivers? Focal Aria Series speakers... PS:Premium veneered cabinets alone require sustainable sources & that cost $$$ in todays shrinking growth areas. |
When I tried ARs in the early 70s I though that the tweeters has failed. I had been using ARs for years. I have gone through a lot of Brit speakers ever since then.You would not believe how many. Even Had a B&W P2H. Later a dealer for Harbeth and B&W. If you like the sound what difference does the age matter? Since I am 75 I try this line on women but it does not work. The Harbeth were based on BBC designs and I still listen often to the SP1s and have even compared them to my Duetta speakers. Still have the SP1s |
Jake I am on the same band wagon as you are. Three drivers in an MDF box and they want thousands and thousands. Metal drivers, ribbon drivers, they are trendy now. Every year they " improve their crossover" upgraded parts, " hold me back". Cross overs don't add music they take away, are subtractive. Wouldn't a better design would be to reduce or eliminate the crossover. Of course. I stopped begin a dealer for those brands years ago and picked up Wilson Benesch. Carbon fiber cabinets, aero dynamic shaped drivers to reduce bounce back of the sound waves off the back of the drivers. Much much more. I love them. If you get a chance take a listen. I confess I am a dealer for them. My bad? |
I have the same dilemma with the Vandersteen Classics (specifically 1ci) and Totem Arros. They're about the same price and both are well regarded in the forums. The Vandersteen's have survived longer, so they can be said to have stood the test of time. Yet the Vandersteen's don't have expensive parts as far as I can tell. The Arros do - the interlocking cabinet, the veneer both inside and out, the crossover and the borosilicate damping. On the other hand, the Vandersteen's don't need most of the expensive materials because they've done away with the cabinet. (Hard not to be impressed with the application of Occam's Razor). Vandersteen's claim to fame is their first order crossover providing time and phase accuracy. Yet the Totem Arro's also claim to be phase coherent (which I thought wasn't possible with a 2nd order crossover?). How is the price similarity explained? I guess because the sound quality is on an equal plane. |
I spent some time this weekend with 40.1's at decibel hifi in chicago. Honestly, I like the 30.1 better. The smaller boxes had a little less bass but imaged better. I hadn't seen the 40.1's in person before. My wife would never allow them. The 40.1's are no different than big Klipsch or Tannoys. You have to like having big wooden boxes in your room regardless of the quality of the woodwork. They are flawlessly built and worth every penny. |
Harbeth has a nearly 90 lineage in making speakers, starting with the BBC. The Harbeth form was designed by engineers back in the 1960s and the high end studio monitor was born. IF you hear the Harbeth's you will understand. However, no matter the driver construction, the crossover, and the cabinet, the speakers are still flawed. This is especially true of the LS3/5a. However, older audiophiles love them even with their flaws. There is something about these speakers. They were designed in the non digital analog age and produce the original "organic" sound. Personally, I would not buy them There are so many more speakers for the money which outclasses them, but there is a strong market, especially in Europe. |
Activists will not allow circus animals anymore....Yes, but imagine how many models can be sold if they came with this little fellow. As you can see, he's just outside the Newport show by the marina waiting, just waiting to entertain as your speakers break in. All the best, Nonoise |
| Post removed |
If P.T. Barnum were alive, he'd ditch the circus and go into high priced audio. Today I would advise PT to steer clear of both. Activists will not allow circus animals anymore and just take a look at the "Whats going on in the audio market" thread in the Misc Audio sub forum. Both are bad bets to make some fast cash. Now selling vintage audio on Ebay is where its at! Just take a look at the below. Wouldn't be surprised if this ad was posted by PT himself! http://www.ebay.com/itm/SHURE-V15VX-MR-CLASSIC-CART-AND-GENUINE-SHURE-VN57MR-STYLUS-IN-CASE/182150001947?_trksid=p2141725.c100338.m3726&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20150313114020%26meid%3Ddee9cab05e9845af940abf661fea3029%26pid%3D100338%26rk%3D18%26rkt%3D24%26sd%3D351723090580 |
I agree with Paraneer, pricing as to what the market will bear is pretty common. Then do your best to increase efficiencies, reduce scrap, buy better, sell more, etc. Regarding retooling and equipment as expense, I agree with the initial spend- but one would hopefully realize improvements in efficiencies as result. I can see where it would be a competitive business. Especially if you depend on distributors to educate customers and sell the value of the product vs price- assuming the product can be differentiated and has unique value. |
Everything, and I mean everything in the Audio world is based on old designs. As far as the cost of equipment (or everything else for that matter), we live in a world of two income earners. A coffee cost a dime in the 50's/60's. As a kid, I could buy two comic books and a handful of candy for 25 cents. Add the cost of manufacture and exchange rates for the Harbeth also reflect the quality of construction as well as the preceding comments. |
Why are so many companies like harbeth making old speakers designs and charging thousends? They charge what they can that will allow them to make a profit to stay in business. In other words, after overhead is covered, the product is priced according to the old Latin adage - what the market will bear. So the profit margin is irrelevant. If Harbeth, regardless of design and materials used, overpriced their speakers they would not sell. Then Harbeth has to do one of three things... *reduce the price of their speaker and reduce margin. * reduce the price of the speakers and maintain margin that would involve having them built overseas. * Or go out of business. Since Harbeth is still in business, making their product with higher labor cost in the UK, and selling speakers, I would say they are priced just right in the market. Someone is buying them. But the good news is, no one is forcing you to. Its just simple free market capitalism. |
I own a retail business and so just to chime in about cost to build a speaker. Its nearly impossible to generate a profit in a store front reselling items if you don't charge at least double what you pay for it. Not to mention that Harbeth may also be providing additional engineering or refining the parts in ways we don't appreciate and also they likely are offering item warranties etc which all effect bottom line. You simply can't stay in business without similar markup. Small business' may pay tax on the items used to build the product (we pay Obama's new medical device tax now-an additional 2%), sales tax when they sell it, workers comp, liability insurance and so on and so on. It is not easy to generate a profit without marking it up. The trend now is direct sales where you really can't demo the product without first paying-allbeit with good gaurenty but you still have to go through the process or purchasing the product and having it shipped to you home. These speakers tend to be much more affordable as a result-more to your liking-but going that route almost assuredly signals the end of the storefront HIFI sales store for certain. Take your pic! Support direct sales for the savings of support the guy with a passion for hifi with a storefront where you can sit and listen and talk to an experienced salesman (hopefully) and be willing to pay for that experience. Jut my 2 cents. |
You should consider Merlin speakers. They are a tremendous value for the quality of sound they reproduce. I am not affiliated with Merlin in any way, but I have been an audio salesman, audio equipment technician, speaker designer, and have had 40 years experience listening to audio gear and live concerts. I have owned both the Merlin TSM-MMM and currently have the Merlin VSM-MXM. The TSM's replaced Totems (used to sell them) and the VSMs replaced the TSMs. I have been upgrading my system a lit over the past 8 years, but nothing has displaced the Merlins - they are wonderful speakers. If you look at audioreview.com, they won awards for there outstanding reviews on that website. They also have a passionate following on audio asylum, as these speakers have been constantly improved over the years by Merlin. Instead of a completely new model, they will find a great new capacitor and replace all the caps in the crossover. Then, they will change the model number slightly and offer inexpensive upgrades to existing customers. They have also won a lot of Best of Show awards at various audio shows. You can pick up a used pair of TSMs (get the mme or mmm model) for $1500 ($4000 new) or a used pair of VSMs for $4000 ($15,000 new). I recommend checking out Signature Sound in New York. if you do listen to these speakers, you will be glad you did. Happy Listening Dave |
Because they're mostly made in England, so its gonna cost more. If you're not into sound and quality, then you can always buy some Chinese made for a fraction of those British, such as Wharfedale; QUAD; Monitor Audio. Btw, if prices of B&W's and Harbeth's shock you, try prices of the Wilson Benesch lol |
Hi Marty, "Active digital crossovers (and room correction) are a more recent innovation, so there's been some recent technology developments out there, but Tim's point is mostly taken" Back in 1980 we were experimenting with the stk086 chip used individually on drivers to actively cross, bi/tri/quad amp etc. (we actually made a few fabulous sounding amps with this simple chip) We could not do the hard core analytics for room correction then that a laptop program can provide now, but even then it was quite simple to graph and eq a room, I suspect that room correction as we think of it today has been around longer than we realize. |
I've avoided this one, too, but... Active digital crossovers (and room correction) are a more recent innovation, so there's been some recent technology developments out there, but Tim's point is mostly taken. IMO, there are few innovations that justify the price increases we've seen over the past 25 years. Active speakers (particularly if multiple channels of amplification are included) might be a partial exception, but overall - I've got to believe that it's largely margin. I find it next to impossible to attribute the cost of most contemporary loudspeakers bearing a five (or six) digit price tag to parts, or manufacturing overhead, or R & D, or inflation. Gross margins on those products have to be very high on average. That doesn't mean the manufacturer is getting rich on them, either. If he sells three pairs a year, the fact that each pair bears a healthy mark-up isn't going to buy that mansion on Maui. Small volume companies need higher margins to survive, but it doesn't change the fact that margins are high. The specific question from the OP is legit: They may not be the priciest speakers out there, but I'm pretty confident that Harbeth makes fat margins on each sale. BTW, that doesn't mean people shouldn't purchase a pair if they like the sound and/or look of them. That's also true of a six figure loudspeaker. Porsche has very high margins for an auto manufacturer and not too many folks belabor that point. Designer furniture (and that's a big part of what a six figure loudspeaker is) also routinely commands prices that you don't want to justify on a cost of manufacture basis. People enjoy all kinds of high margin purchases. I just think they shouldn't try to justify the purchase by wishing away the mark-up. |
I have kinda stayed away from this thread, but as I think it through, hopefully my input will hold some merit.... "Why are so many companies like harbeth making old speakers designs and charging thousends?" Thousands.... Really, in the big picture, Every speaker design can be called Old. What changes speaker design is that a company or designer will like the look, spec, sound of a new driver and develop a new speaker around that driver or drivers... In the end, most designer prefer a sound of a certain type of crossover slope and will normally gravitate to using those slopes when possible. A 6/12 slope has a certain sound, all 6db slopes another, 12/18 or all 24 db slopes, etc, etc, etc. Each type of crossover has a flavor that each person prefers. Harbeth in particular has their own midrange driver, Unless they contract a new part or parts, I have to believe that they will continue to use the parts that they feel is their best foot forward. Maybe each company needs to try different parts, as in a ribbon or a horn load, or exotic material drivers, but once you get a potion for success and you make good money doing it, it gets hard to rock the boat. I know there is a huge following out there for all 6db per octave speakers, I personally like Odd order slopes, properly aligned and phase compensated. So in the end, true NEW parts being introduced doesn't happen everyday and right off the top of my head, I can think of maybe 6 or 8 or so different crossover topologies. The 2 that I use most are most likely butterworth or Linkwitz Riley. New crossover technology hasn't happened in decades. |
Jji666, I do the same. I'm very happy buying older models for much less. Just bought some JSE .6 stand mounts for my bedroom. They sound great to me. At some point I'll probably rotate another speaker in and sell of give these to a buddy. I hope to hear some Harbeths at some point, and think I will like them. Fun hobby! |
| Post removed |
There are tons of speakers at tons of price points (I guess that goes for all the gear). That is one part of what is the beauty of this hobby, albeit that it can seem very confusing until you get into it a while and realize that there is no commonly held sweet spot and it is all subjective. But here's my direct response: if you don't think that speaker technology has advanced sufficiently to support the price of new speakers by any given manufacturer, buy a vintage used pair! I've been buying used speakers from A'Gon, Ebay, and Craigslist for quite some time, and I've been very pleased with the results. I've also met a lot of nice people that way. This allows me to do long-term trials with a given speaker brand in my own house on my own gear, something I never could afford if I went straight for the newest flagship model. Some day I will probably decide I like a given house sound the best and splurge for their flagship, but until then, I am enjoying the variety and affordability of used stuff. People love their audio gear and much if it is well cared for! Plus with each type of speaker, my taste in music temporarily shifts: B&W good for hard rock, Magnepan good for progressive and jazz, etc. Fun stuff to try out! |
Companies like Harbeth and Magnepan which have been around for several decades are like the automotive equivalent of Porsche. They developed a product that worked when originally introduced and were well received, then they continued to refine and improve their products over the years. They don't create a "new model" every year or two, I guess the saying " If it ain't broke don't fix it" applies here. Some people, myself included, appreciate a timeless design on some things, others don't, AND THAT'S O.K., if something doesn't appeal to you for aesthetic reasons move on. However, companies that have been in business for 5 or 6 decades and continue to receive positive reviews must be doing something right. |
Last year I spent several months sweating over a speaker upgrade, though the "Harbeth sound" is "not my cup of tea", I can understand why people like them...and I'd say the same about a number of other high-quality offerings from Magico, Wilson, Sonus Faber, and a few other manufacturers whose products I auditioned. As for Harbeth, their speakers do have a sort of "old school" construction, which also has a sort of "charm" about them. All the models I auditioned were "easy on the ears" and "easy on the eyes", beautifully crafted with real wood veneers! As for the price they charge, I feel the marketplace determines the "right price" for items, if they didn't sell well at their price points, Harbeth would need to make changes, but it seems that they don't have trouble selling them at the prices they offer. |
There is no exact point as my explanation is definitely an oversimplification. Other factors come into play such as complexity of crossover and what if you were hoping to pair with. I prefer to stick with SET and more specifically 845. Personally I would go no lower than 95 DB efficient. You also have to be very careful because speaker manufacturers lie about their specifications. |
The trouble is a lot of the newer designs are dictated by WAF. Now with the transistor more power is available cheaply so they can go smaller and smaller with the box and still get bass response. A lot of the design development goes into making speakers pretty and unique not necessarily into getting better sound. Earlier Jake said something about driving his totems with a 70 W tube amp. His point was that they are not that inefficient. But to me that is still incredibly inefficient. If the transistor was never invented they would've focussed on making speakers more and more efficient so you can drive them with 3 W. Also it is expensive to make an efficient speaker. You need to use more expensive magnet materials and more of them. So it is much easier and cheaper for them just to use more power and make them less efficient. And then the dynamics suffer. You get way more impact and dynamics out of high-efficiency speakers than out of low efficiency speakers. |
Before I got a pair of Harbeths, I went through an anti-cone ’n dome phase. I thought a box with drivers was old technology - which it is - but thought more recent technologies would always be better. With an open mind I’ve come full circle and much better off... IMO Hartbeths sound better than their old school looks would suggest - but I can see how someone would question purchasing a pair on their looks - with all of the new sleek speakers out there. But they have top quality components and highly skilled implementation of those components. Like most speakers, the cabinetry is a big chunk of the cost, and the workmanship is first rate. They have professional pedigree, and that’s just what speakers look like in a studio, post production suite, or broadcast booth - Alan Shaw sticks to a formula he knows and it works for some people.. |
"...and Heaven is in your mind..." Art is in the eye of the beholder, as is the sound to the ear of the listener. One will obtain or strive for that which fulfills their goals within their means. Since that's all pretty relative and subject to all manner of parameters that can be discussed Endlessly with no real substantial conclusion, IMHO... Do what you like at the price point you can live with. Spend more of your time listening....less time fretting about perfection. I suspect we'd all be happier campers if we did so. 'Perfect' seems to be an elusive little sprite, dancing on your shoulders, whispering "What if..." Fly swatter the little twit...;) Get back to the basics, 'listening' as opposed to 'art of listening'. The latter is mere recursion, an exercise in frustration. You will never be happy always searching.... |
It sure was a piece of art! It was displayed at the museum of modern art! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_E-Type |
I agree. I saw an early Jaguar (E type 4.2) at a wine festival and talked to the owner awhile. It was the most beautiful car I have ever seen. The lines were perfect to me, like it was designed out of a dream, I suppose it was. The owner said he loved it but was nervous driving it as it had no side mirrors. The original owner ordered it that way to preserve the lines. Sorry for the off topic post, but there were several newer supercars there that missed the perfection of that car, to me anyway. A rolling piece of art. |
Which had some points to it, and made me think twice would you want to spend money on something that takes quite a bit of real estate in a starter home with older technology. Or a speaker that sounds as good or the same. With the same price smaller foot print and newer technology @jakecanada , you would be surprised at how much money people spend on "older technologies". Just look at the popularity of tubes and vinyl. Newer technology does not necessarily translate into better sound. Just as smaller is not necessarily better. If you want a smaller speaker, that's fine. I have space restrictions myself. I don't question why some speakers have to be so big though. Different strokes for different folks. |
