Funny, after all these years, people still say things like "you wasted all that money on cables". There are still those who believe cables don't make a difference. I once did marketing for a cable line I consider to be about the best-Stealth Audio Cables. One CES, I walked the rooms with the designer/owner, Serguei Timachev. He carried a pair of his then new Indra interconnects. Going from room to room he asked the room runners to replace their source to preamp IC with the Indra. There was not one that was not completely flabbergasted and said that the Indras blew away what they were using. That was the skyrocketing of Indra and Stealth. The Indra became one of the best reviewed cables ever. Serguei now makes the Sakra-an IC that blows away the Indra! I don't understand why some still do not value cables as much as I.
It’s immoral to buy cables now huh? Lol. Better start picketing the
Ferrari’s, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, etc dealer’s, and we need to start
doing something about those immoral multi million dollar homes too.
Boats, another one we need to clean up.
The person who said that ... was obviously making a joke.
I see most stating as
fact that they hear what they hear, and they are not trying to tell you
that you don’t hear what you don’t hear as aopposed to those who can’t
hear, continually trying to tell them that they’re hallucinating. That’s
the difference.
No, they call them "hard of hearing", they insult their systems, say they have broken ears, any number of things. I am failing to see how that is worse than accusing someone else of expectation bias?
Based on your comment maybe we should say that you
could use some training in critical listening, so you are able to
identify obvious differences in audible sounds.
I would offer to teach the course if you like? How many critical listening experiments have you ran or been involved in?
Or maybe we can just say
that we all have differences in perceptions of what we hear and
everyone has their own idea of what works for them.
Which is critically much different claiming that a competently designed cable sounds noticeably better (or different) from another competently designed cable. You will again note I have been very clear, I know how to, and can induce a noticeable sonic change with a cable. However, it no mores takes $5,000 or even $1,000 to make a cable that either will or will not make a noticeable change. I really couldn't care if you spend $1,000 or $5,000 or $50,000 on a cable. It is your money and right now, and spending money would be good for the economy. However, when you (or others) come on here and state with complete conviction that you must spend X dollars, or must have a cable of Y quality (that costs X dollars), or that you must allocate Z% of your system cost to cables, then, knowing other people read these forums and are making decisions about their audio spend, then yes, it is quite reasonable for me and others to call present an alternative viewpoint.
It’s immoral to buy cables now huh? Lol. Better start picketing the Ferrari’s, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, etc dealer’s, and we need to start doing something about those immoral multi million dollar homes too. Boats, another one we need to clean up. Robert, are you’re saying you’re one of the hearing impaired ones? I guess I can make that assumption about people who don’t have the ability to hear properly to hear significant difference in audible sound, as it would be the same as your assumptions about those who are not impaired. I see most stating as fact that they hear what they hear, and they are not trying to tell you that you don’t hear what you don’t hear as aopposed to those who can’t hear, continually trying to tell them that they’re hallucinating. That’s the difference. Based on your comment maybe we should say that you could use some training in critical listening, so you are able to identify obvious differences in audible sounds. Or maybe we can just say that we all have differences in perceptions of what we hear and everyone has their own idea of what works for them. If you ever come to houston, maybe we can both listen to the same test and see what we see. I went into this expecting not to hear any difference so I could put that behind me once and for all. But what I did not do is go in with a bias that I wasn’t going to hear anything no matter what happened. I was surprised at the result, but as always, my ears are the finale judge in any decision about equipment. No matter how impressive something looks on paper, no matter the positive reviews, or negative reviews. A lot of positive reviews of course will get a product more noticed for consideration.
$12,000 cables is conspicuous consumption especially when the laws of diminishing returns, if not gravity itself combined with the placebo effect kick in, and therefore immoral imho.
Use lamp wire and feed the starving children in Bangladesh.
Barney, I think you’ve got it backwards, people buy expensive stuff, because they hear a difference. Not buy it then feel like they have to say it’s good, though even then, I wouldn’t do that, as I do buy some thing without the ability to hear it first. Why is it that people believe that someone who purchases an expensive cable will lie about it, and yet not say the same thing about say an amp, or certainly not to the same level as with cables. It seems to me that some are trying too hard to convince themselves of something, so that their own ideas aren’t shattered. Hey, if you honestly tell me that you can’t hear a difference, where I honestly can, I’m not going to argue that at all. And I certainly would. It recommend that you spend money in that case as there is no value for you. Just as I might like electrostatic speakers and you might hate them. Then, why would I suggest that you buy them? Or just the opposite, why should I not buy something, because you don’t like them, or can’t hear a difference. Why can’t we each hear what we hear, and like what we like. No need to revert to arguments about how you feel some manufacturers market their products that you don’t like, we are discussing what I hear and like and what you like and hear, or don’t hear as the case may be. Why do so many feel the need to tell people who spend on cables that they’re basically fools and idiots, and have duped themselves into believing something that is not true. I don’t see those people trying so hard to convince the ones who can’t hear any differences that their hearing is somehow inadequate.
@drbarney1 , you really should have thrown in dielectric diffraction and triboelectric effect in there for good measure? ... I am laughing with you, not at you. I probably shouldn't tell you I once read a "respected" audiophile claim you shouldn't use speaker wire much bigger than 10awg because the effects of skin resistance get too large? ... ya, shook my head at that one too. Surface area is obviously too complex a concept for some people.
While there could be a difference, there is some bad physics used to sell some cables. For instance, skin effect and the claim to need to mitigate it with litz or ribbon construction. Skin effect is alleged to increase the resistance of speaker cables by diminishing the cross sectional ares of the cable conducting the signal. All this is true, but how much does the signal get attenuated by the increased resistance at 20 kHz? This can be calculated and approximated within a few percent by multiplying the skin depth by the outer circumference of the cross section. For typical 8 gauge cables ten feet the effective resistance changes from about 0.0064 Ohms to 0.011 Ohms. Put this in series with 4 Ohms such as a Magnepan speaker and the ratio of resistance is an increase on the order of about 0.01 db. Skin effect is not an issue and cable designers either know this or they ought to know the engineering/physics to calculate it. This issue destroys the credibility of so many of their other claims such as confusing grain boundaries with Johnson-Niquest thermal noise of any conductor and the insulation introducing electric field distortion from dipole molecules in the insulation. I do not question the possibility of a badly constructed distorting the signal but I do not believe thousands of dollars or even hundreds of dollars for a cable can pass a strictly conducted double-blind test over a well constructed cable. Could anybody whose ego is connected with spending $12,000 admit they hear no difference they don't imagine? I am not so sure.
The subject is broad. Most equipment has its own sound. It imparts that sound into what you hear, but you only have have sound for each piece for the most part. Some equipment does have the ability to select some different sounds. People buy audio equipment all the time because of the sound it gives them in their system. There’s no doubt about that. With a guitar amp, while each can ha e a totally different sound, they offer way more range of sounds and tones that they can create. Of course that’s because their purpose is different, they’re intended to create using, not reproduce it. I know many are against tone controls, etc on audio equipment, but personally I don’t see why, as long as that doesn’t take away anything.
I play the guitar myself, and cables would not have the same relevance there that they do in home audio. With home audio, we are placing cables after the source and changing that sound. With a guitar, most of the processing of the sound happens after the cable, in the amp, which then modifies the signal it receives from the pickups, and guitar amps have a lot of tone control over the sound, much more so than any cable does. So you really can not compare the two in the same discussion. When I play, I dial in the sound I want with the controls on the amp, a cable placed before the amp does its thing would not have great affect, and what it does have would be just one setting, and easily modified to a much greater extent by my manipulation of the different tone controls. Cables, and individual pieces of equipment are our tone controls in home audio. I am still unclear why it’s such a bad thing to have those in our hobby, though I believe feel that it impacts the sound in a negative with with active controls?
You may be interested in this topic over on the Gretsch guitar forum.
Consensus:
Total BS to professional musicians who PLAY and RECORD the music we all listen to. Best comment: Expensive cables MAY sound a bit "brighter" if you like that, but most can't hear it and those who do don't like it.
Best liked include Southcreek $10-$13 depending on length.
Also:
Many years ago Guitar Player magazine did a shootout between a lot of cables priced all over the spectrum. Their conclusion was that mega-expensive cables did sound different, though that difference wasn't always preferred, & that a simple Carvin cable, slightly more expensive than the cheapest in the survey, sounded as good as 90% of the others. (2) A couple years ago I eliminated about half the hum in my system by replacing an expensive George L cable with a much less expensive Mogami patch cord.
Mogami's are expensive--about $65.00--but seem to last on the road with hard gigging and, of course, ROADIES handling the equipment.
Also, brought out the fact that "do you have to rewire your amp and guitar as well?"
Once again, musicians seem to have some answers...
Thyname, If you offend him he'll call you names & post his credentials. Please apologize immediately before he posts 4 more paragraphs about why we are so blessed to have him on this forum.
It is my understanding that with VERY low capacitance pre-to-amp interconnects, which the HPC is, and and an equally low amp-input-impedance, a resonance circuit
I might be wrong but I think this is only important (capacitance of cable) between a turntable and associated phono cartridge and your preamp.
Considering people use short cables, as short as 1ft to connect pre-amps and power amps which would have very low capacitance, no, oscillation would not be an issue, and would not be a factor of low capacitance, and the output of the preamp is low impedance so would dampen oscillations. My point is it sounds like either a made up spec or one not based on sound reasoning. Many of these cables guys don't have a whole lot of knowledge w.r.t. electronics.
@roberttdid Well, 10k is already a pretty low input impedance for a power amp, less than that, rather unusual... correct me if I'm wrong.
It is my understanding that with VERY low capacitance pre-to-amp interconnects, which the HPC is, and and an equally low amp-input-impedance, a resonance circuit (Schwingkreis) can be created, in the process may destroy the amp.
Any experts might chip in with further detail by all means. Michélle 🇿🇦
Perhaps if some people, in the absence of being able to make and communicate a reasonable argument, just stepped back from their keyboard as opposed to resorting to insults that add nothing to the conversation, then yes. Till then .... I won’t apologize for defending myself.
>>>>>So, besides begin a pseudo scientist you’re also a hypocrite? Makes sense, most of them are.
I just shared this post on a much older thread, but I think it is also of relevance here?
So, yesterday I purchased a 3 meter Madrigal HPC XLR interconnect set (for peanuts 🥜 $173.50 ! ).
After having now looked at this helical planar construction (behind the connectors) it shows how incredibly delicate this cable construction actually is! I had initially planned to chop it up, and make 2 or 3 shorter cables from it. But looking at the construction made me change my mind in a chiffy! 🙄😜
So now instead, I tried these items between my ML326S pre and my PASS X350.5 amp, replacing my Transparent Music Link Ultra... what an astounding difference this presented!!! Now so much for cables making a difference!
They do sound brighter, but also clearer, more open, and have more PRAT than the 1.5 meter Transparent Ultra set, - which by comparison are build like a tank! A far less delicate construction, but truly well made, for sure.
Now, if ones system is on the bright side those Madrigal HPC's - might - just be too much of a good thing, but if not - wow, they sounds about as delicate and refined as I do not recall having heard e.g. listening to piano CD recordings of Beethoven and Chopin. Addictive in one word.
Listening to badly mastered CDs... - it gets pretty terrible e.g. "The Best Of David Sanbborn" - so... by comparison the Transparent shows less of that - badness -, for sure. So for now, I decided to keep the HPC set in my system, it just sounds too good, so delicate, so right - and this for a 30 odd year old cable! KUDOS to Madrigal of old! And AGAIN, yes, cables DO make a difference in deed. Michélle 🇿🇦 PS: To note, those HPC cables are constructed to have VERY low capacitance and need an amp input impedance *minimum* of 10k ohm.
Perhaps if some people, in the absence of being able to make and communicate a reasonable argument, just stepped back from their keyboard as opposed to resorting to insults that add nothing to the conversation, then yes. Till then .... I won't apologize for defending myself.
That would make 6. We have a new record, and it’s not even noon yet. Do you normally get more triggered on a Tuesday morning? It would be helpful to let me know so I can maximize my ROI. Should I expect another episode of "Quotes from Questionable People that may you go huh?" I am not sure you can top that debunking site and it’s creator, but gosh darn I would love to see you try. If you have a personal relationship with Dan, could you pass a message on for me? Ghostbusters was meant as entertainment. It was not a documentary.
Since 1995 Dan has been probing various aspects of the afterlife, including near-death experiences, out-of-body experiences, life-between-lives, and reincarnation. He also investigates communication with the “other side” via such means as mental mediumship, physical mediumship, spontaneous communication events and the use of technology (instrumental transcommunication). Following the passing of his partner Jane in 2007, Dan experienced a series of unmistakable communications from her.
Dan’s latest projects include a series of documentary films about afterlife research. At the presentation, Dan will show the first one--a documentary about instrumental transcommunication entitled CALLING EARTH. The film includes an individual who demonstrates that he can produce photos of deceased individuals on anyone’s digital camera."
He’s going to huff and puff and blow your house down! Is it The Big Bad Wolf? No! It’s Mr. Puffer Fish! Wait for it, wait for the next stupid post by Mr. Puffer Fish....😡
5 posts about me and it’s not even 8am yet? I feel all warm inside now. Wear your "skeptic" hat proudly even if it is a few sizes too small. Flat Earth believers are proud in their skepticism too. Oh just to let you know, that mirror most of us have that allows for self reflection? Yours appears to be broken. That may be why you are not able to go more than what 2 or 3 posts without and ad-hom. No worries, most other wanna be bullies think they are the victim too.
Ah, the uninformed skeptic awakens. We shall see if he really is awake.... or just bluffing as usual, like a puff fish, spitting out juvenile Ad hominems. I’ll be back....stay tuned to this station.
Oh, and I am rather flattered that you dedicated 4 long and meandering posts in response to me this morning. I usually only trigger you enough for 1 or 2. However, while you play with your magic pebbles I must get back to real audio sciency stuff. No worries, you can still share a story about sweeping floors or something at NASA to feel important.
It is rather cute that you quote "Zen and the art of debunkery". It was written by someone like you, jealous with no accomplishments in the sciences. Unable to earn the respect of actual scientists (see lack of accomplishments ) he devoted himself to attacking people who actually achieve success in the sciences, while continuing, you guessed it, to actually accomplish nothing. If this is who you want to quote, and you think the writings of this do nothing fellow charlatan matter ... Well then, have at it
“Informed skepticism is an integral part of the scientific method, professional debunkers — often called ‘kneejerk skeptics’ — tend to be skeptics in name only, and to speak with little or no authority on the subject matter of which they are so passionately skeptical.” – Dan Drasin, author of Zen and the Art of Debunkery
INTRODUCTION TO ZEN AND THE ART OF DEBUNKERY
So you’ve had a close encounter with a UFO or its occupants. Or maybe you’ve experienced an “impossible” healing, a perfectly cogent conversation with your dead uncle or an irrefutable demonstration of “free energy,” and you’ve begun to suspect that the official view of reality isn’t the whole picture. Mention any of these things to most working scientists and be prepared for anything from patronizing cynicism to merciless ridicule. After all, science is a purely hard-nosed enterprise that should have little patience for “expanded” notions of reality. Right?
Wrong.
Like all systems of truth-seeking, the scientific method, applied with integrity, has a profoundly expansive, liberating impulse at its core. This “Zen” in the heart of science is revealed when the practitioner sets aside arbitrary beliefs, cultural preconceptions and groupthink, and approaches the nature of things with “beginner’s mind.” Given the freedom to express itself, reality can speak freshly and freely, and can be heard more clearly. Appropriate testing and objective validation can then follow in due course.
I am he as you are he as you are me And we are all together See how they run like pigs from a gun See how they fly I'm crying Sitting on a corn flake Waiting for the van to come Corporation T-shirt, stupid bloody Tuesday Man you've been a naughty boy You let your face grow long I am the egg man They are the egg men I am the walrus Goo goo g'joob
roberttdid I am quite confident to state that i have done far more listening tests in my life so far then you will ever do. It is a good part of how I have spent my career.
>>>>I reckon we should file that opening salvo under Appeals to Authority that went Clunk! Along with, “I’ve been in this hobby for more than 30 years so you can believe me when I say...” and “As a PhD in physics you can take my word it disobeys the laws of physics” and “I’ve had 50 systems in the last 40 years so you can trust me when I say....”
Bonus comment: “I am quite confident to state?” Who talks like that? 😬
“Come in my son, be not afraid, let us double blind test together.“ 😂 😂 😂
roberttdid “There’s a sucker born every minute.” ― P.T. Barnum
>>>>Ack chew ally P.T. Barnum never said that. What he did say is “people would generally be much better off if they believed in too much rather than too little.” Which kind of clashes with your whole worldview, I might add. I don’t know why every pseudo skeptic down through the ages uses that quote as if it means something profound. It doesn’t.
P.T. Barnum also famously said, “The noblest art is making others happy.”
I am me, unless I’m not, and I’m someone else? Lol. Seems a lot of people are confused about their own identities, so I can understand their confusion about something that requires logic and common sense to follow.
I am not this mahgister.... He is an a..h... but i am not one..
We use the same computer, his computer... But we dont speak to each other.... He knows that all audio is engineering facts only...Myself i work it with stones and cheap E.C. and materials to create wonder sound.... He thinks i am deluded or deaf... I think that he thinks too much of himself.... I dont like this mahgister at all.... I prefer the other one, the truest one, myself.... :)
Someday i will buy my own computer.....
By the way i am the right side of this brain, he is only the left side....
« Under the loving sun, hate is like a passing cloud my dear»-Groucho Marx
“There's a sucker born every minute.”
―
P.T. Barnum
"you may fool people for a time; you can fool a part of the people all the time; but you can’t fool all the people all the time.” ... possibly said by Lincoln, possibly not, but I would rather be in the group of people who are not fooled all the time :-)
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