Yeah, the BAACH stuff seems like a real game changer, and I plan to give it a try one day.
Where do you stop?
I bought some 99.9 % pure silver speaker cables. I read the reviews before investing in them and they talked about how they seem brighter and most felt it was because of the lack of noise and more imagining. Some didn't care for the new sound but most loved what it did. I really liked the change so much I bought some to go from my preamp to my mono block tube amps. That sounded even better. So what the heck I bought more to use from a phono amp to my pre amp and then some silver phono cables. Every time I added them into my system it sounded better and better. So here is my question, The Silver in the cables according to the reviews are superior because they conduct electricity better than copper and have a lower impedance if my memory serves me correctly. What happens to the signal when it meets copper wiring in speakers or other gear? Should all the wire be replaced anywhere it can be and will it continue to sound better?
55 responses Add your response
I finally stopped...
...when I treated my room after decades of making excuses.
...when finally I had had enough cables to stare at.
...When I finally broke down and bought my dream speakers; a pair of Legacy Whispers XDS speakers which was part serendipity and part irony as part of my reasoning for getting them is that I heard at THE Show during CES...well that and a pair is equipped with 4 x 15” woofers across two sandwiched vertical open baffles per speaker and sports a.built-in 500wpc ICE amps to power just the 4x15s in each speaker I thought it would be funny to taunt my best buddy Mike by buying the one speaker he mentions like it’s his personal and yet elusive Moby Dick. I had been interested in open baffle from watching New Record Day YouTube videos and I nearly bought some Spatial Audio ones when I Remembered the Whispers were open baffle.
... BUT What really cinched it for me? Was when I added the BACCH4MAC Pro software written by Professor Chourier at Princeton University who holds ten patents on this tech and runs both the Binural 3D Audio Psycho-Acoustic & Ion propulsion Labs!
This software extracts more inner detail with a purity I’ve never experience ever in 30 years. It’s able to take any recording create a personally customized filter to your ears along with creating a customized crossover cancellation filter for just your ears. For bonus points it even tracks my head via camera and adjusts on the fly based on my real time head movements and repositions L+R amplitude dynamically to maintain the spacious 3D image without adding anything to the tonality or timbre in the slightest. For every 1/10th nearly imperceptible change any incremental addition or subtraction of attribute nothing will more dramatically improved the quality or sound improvement like natural 3D audio coming from only two channels that benefit both old and new stereo recordings alike is paradigm shifting and disruptive technology. Wheather you are music lover, gearhead, love vintage stereo recordings, have a golden ear or love the purity of sound quality and unbelievable inner detail that’s so real it's spine-tingling or your interested in the recording-side theirs a Bacch4Mac package right for you, unless you only use windows then you can buy a purpose built stand alone hardware version that provides you a turn key solution.
A) Treat your room, even if you need to divorce your spouse. I wish I didn’t wait until I was 45 to spend $2200 of lots of absorptive room treatments which was very slap echoey. My room dimensions are only 20'x14'x8', but with twenty or so 24'x48' room treatments I am between a recording studio and audiophile heaven.
BACCH4MAC et al benefit greatly by room that isn't too lively or has lots of slap echo or early reflections or maybe you need fewer treatments because your room is so dimensionally large that early reflections don’t interfere with the direct sound quality.
B) Put 50% or more of your budget in highly directional speakers in terms of dispersion. Any speaker that is close to either an ideal point-source (KEF, Tammy, er al), or a highly directional dispersion, like my WhispersXDS system, spatial audio open baffle speakers equipped with a very directional horn, Tektons are also quite directional as well. Maggie's and any Ribbon Planer should also prove a great match.
BAACH4MAC works on anything, but certain speakers are better suited to it.
B) Buy Bacch4Mac Intro software and simply test the measurement based filters aka UBACCH filters, and that should be enough to let you convincingly know whether you want a refund or to upgrade to BACCH4MAC Audiophile or Pro edition at the end of the trial to enable you to make you're own BAACH enhanced mastered tracks by simply applying a broader crossover cancellation filter and then the output can be enjoyed anywhere.
Edger is a very busy person so please don't flood him with a myriad of configurations and what if scenarios. Just try the Intro software either he or a colleague will help you learn by remote training sessions.
I'm not paid by or affiliated with Edgar, Princeton, or BACCH4MAC or Theoretica.us. I just love it because it's a dramatic sonic improvement in many ways.
Just my 2 cents.
Best Regards,
Jonathan C. |
I tested almost all expensive known silver and copper audio cables. When S or C cables are not made properly (veil, irritate distortion sound), the silver wins due to silver's soft sound. When S and C cables are made properly, the copper wins. The copper sounds way more closer to natural sound than the silver. Alex/Wavetouch |
When I upgraded my speaker wires they have more silver. Suddenly my tweeters woke up. I like to hear crisp symbols. Things just come alive. I would like to try cables with more silver to compare. I think you have to be careful with ear fatigue. This is an incredible group. Just wish I had an extra $50,000. |
Pure silver takes a heck of a long time to break in. Even using a cable cooker it can take 3 times a long as copper, and even then it needs more break in time on the actual components of your audio system. The gold/silver alloy wires have just the right amount edge removed and break in more quickly. That said, my favorite speaker cables I made from stranded, tinned copper 10 gauge cloth covered wire pulled from a 1980's phone central office which had 48-175 d/c volts going through them the whole time. Now that's break-in.
|
I have been using silver interconnects for 40 years or so. Siltec. The old blue ones with silver writing. Indeed, the issue now comes to mind as to whether there has been deterioration in that time. Oxidation if air can get in. Probably can. Still, they seem to sound the same as they always did, although my hearing ain't what it was. The ones that made the biggest difference are the tonearm cables. Presumably because the music signal they carry is so low voltage. Apart from what I hear as purer sound with less noise, most silver cables seem to be more flexible than copper and so easier to route where I want them to go. |
Spot on. The internet phenomenon, which brings sick dudes like Cin Dyment in play with imaginary made up “systems” and “jobs” and a powerful Google Machine. Fcuked up world. No different than the St. Petersburg troll factory
|
Dynamique Audio cables. They have excellent neutral sounding cables ranging from pure Copper up to Gold and Rhodium plated pure Silver cables from $$ to $$$$$. They all share a similar sound signature and cable design. Have been using them for the last 4 years and there is no going back to previous cables I tried. |
You know that is interesting “…the cultural rush to buy.” I think the internet has had a big influence on audio purchases. It is much easier to look at components more as commodities on line and then start looking for a good deal. I would think that might have a real limiting effect on the average experience of many folks. In the old days you had to go to a store where you pretty quickly could realize different stuff sounded different. Kind of like red wine, the bottles look pretty much the same and have red liquid in them… but they don’t taste the same. |
I looked at the Iconoclast cables white papers based on science article and it was way over my head. I know what my ears hear and that is enough for me. I like to compare cartridges so a a/b them. I have two tables connected and duplicate albums so I can set them at the same place and go back and forth. I will listen to one (a) and switch it to (b) and think (b) is better. Then switch back to (a) and decide (a) is better. They are different but I like both. I do think when you get to a certain level of gear it can all sound great and different. They decide at the factories what they like and hope that others like it too. It is all subject to some ones ear or opinion. We all have ears that don't work the same as someone else and we all have opinions. |
@mrskeptic Try listening to the Acoustic Zen Silver Ref vs. the copper Matrix Ref. Basically the same geometry, dielectric, etc. with the main difference being silver versus copper. If you can’t hear a difference between these two, go get your ears checked. Put another way, get your head outta the books and actually go listen — it’s far more educational, and fun. |
MR Skeptic, I think sometimes you are right. If I pay a lot of money for something I want it to sound better. I heard the difference in the music and so do a lot of others. Are you saying you have tried it yourself and not just looked at the science behind the material and it didn't sound different to you? |
Silver has a resistivity of 1.59x10-8 and conductivity of 6.30x107
Copper is 1.68x10-8 and 5.98x107, respectively. In other words, you absolutely will not hear a difference but your easily suggestible brain may tell you otherwise. If you believe otherwise, you'll need to replace ALL the copper wiring in your components and speakers (coils, chokes, etc) and house and power company etc, to get the best sound. Don't forget the windings in your cartridge!
|
Thanks everyone for your input. It sounds like a lot of you have experienced the same result as I did. Some of you are spot on. I am older and my hearing has changed. I am in this journey for the pleasure I get from the music. The equipment I have tried and accumulated over the years simply delivers it. It has been fun and interesting to hear and experience the different results. I have come to the conclusion that music can sound great and very different when making the changes. No two systems sound the same. We all have our preferences and prejudice on what is best. That is what makes it fun for me. This community here is great way to explore and share. I started in 1977 when in college. I borrowed a 1000 dollars from a finance company and headed to the Stereo Warehouse in Sante Fe New Mexico. Came home with a Sansui Au7900 I still have, a jvc turntable and a pair of ESS tower speakers. |
Absolutely true! But you will learn a lot more for less with less expensive items to experiment with. Cheaper and probably more satisfying to buy a used tube pre or build your own speakers from scratch than to tinker too much with expensive gear. At least at first. :) |
Silver works great in systems that are not analytical, ie warm. Mixtures of silver and other metals like copper a gold can have great effects on sound ie Siltech cables. Too much silver can cause a system to sound “shrill” or overly bright. Moral of the story, silver is like butter, a little enhances flavor, too much and it can be sickening. |
Let's not forget, the documented aging effect of not hearing highs as well as when younger. Of course, average does not mean you. Thus, young people might find silver 'bright', while some of us old dogs might benefit from a slight boost of the highs. That's another reason I like level controls for mids and tweets (or high quality equalizers). |
@eryoung2k Gold is not as good a conductor as copper but I can see that it might appeak to uneducated rich guys.
|
I'm having an amp built with all internal silver wiring. That said, silver isn't always better. It is however, always about 7% better conductor than copper. However, conductance (inverse of resisistance) isn't always the governing parameter. You quote what others have said about silver. I generally ignore these wine spectator sounding monologs. Everyone feels that if they can't write a review that includes "subtle hints of anis and manure" they aren't really and audiophile and I think most of them are not very accurate. Use your own ears. One rule of thumb I have about silver. digital signals always benefit from a little silver. but since it is such a low level signal, silver coated copper works well. I am currently using silver/gold/copper interconnects by Mundorf but I've been meaning to build some pure silver ones and your post reminded me to get that wire ordered. Enjoy. Jerry |
I ended up on a similar journey. In one of my systems, I ended up with a full loom of 5N silver interconnects, speaker cables, digital cable, and power cords. That's where I'm going to stop, I'm not going to be concerned with internal wiring although I have a feeling that it would make a positive difference also. I also think the quality of the silver cables makes a big difference. |
If upgrading the system to silver wiring, what about the power cables coming into the house? They are still copper. So you can only go so far. Plus current doesn’t flow faster through silver vs copper but it does matter about wire size. Actually I heard speaker wires from AQ that cost thousands with the battery pack which on a certain high end amp made the speakers sound worse than putting in a different pair of cables on the same amp. So yes it’s a challenge to match the right pair of cables with your equipment. |
| Post removed |
OP,
Thanks for sharing your equipment. Very good choices.
There is a place under your user ID to put some photos and I’d your equipment. It is really helpful to us and you don’t have to keep reposting it.
Your experience with silver could be completely different with someone else. It is so equipment dependent and value dependent. When I started out my equipment was relatively inexpensive and solid state and my speakers were ribbon… really revealing. This was 40 - 50 years ago. Put silver on my system and I would go running from the room… and my partner would. All down from upstairs and tell me to turn it down… or off. As I got better equipment.. I used silver coated copper… but it is not as simple as that. High quality interconnects use different dielectrics and geometries to refine the sound. So, with your equipment, I am really happy to hear you have had increasingly better sound cables with silver in them. |
Yes vinyl is my preference. I have recently got a reel to reel and enjoy that. It is hard to find reasonable pre recorded music. I will eventually record all the vinyl I have. Once I get tired of changing, cleaning records and stylus I will probably go to streaming. I just like the sound of analog/vinyl for now. |
Interesting question. I don’t know. And for what it’s worth, I experimented with changing speaker cables first then ICs then power. It made a difference and the only silver I have is my ICs - Kimber Kable KTCG. Each change was dramatic - and I bought used and demo after I heard the speaker cable difference.
|
In my main system I have a Mcintosch c28, VTL 240 deluxe mono blocks, Oracle delphi turntable with a signet arm, Thorens td 160 with a syntec S200 arm and to many cartridges to list. I use a furman 15amp power conditioner and a ps labs ultimate outlet (I would highly recommend). Not a lambo but not a mazda either. Its all vintage gear like me pretty much. |
@erik_squires Heh heh. Good one. |
I started with clearday double shotgun speaker wires 250 on here. I buy a lot of used stuff and have had great luck with it, that stretches my buying power and if I don't like it I resell it. Then I bought a pair of Nordost silver ribbon interconnects, I forget the model. Then I got more on here that were unbranded but sounded great too. I ordered a set of phono wires new from someone I found on ebay in the UK that made some for me and are marketed as woodbury audio. Nice quality and sound. I am ordering another set from them for a second table I use. They run about 270 with shipping for 1.2 meter length. I can get you info if your interested. |
