When someone tells you it's a $40,000 amp, does it sound better?

I believe a couple of things are contributing to the perception of higher priced components sounding better.  The first is anticipation bias.  If someone says "listen to this amazing $40,000 amplifier I just bought" there might be the expectation that such an expensive piece of gear has to sound better because it's so expensive.  This might be more so if you can't afford to buy one yourself.  If you can afford it and bite the bullet, far be it from you to question that your investment didn't make a profound improvement in your system. The second thing has to do with appearances.  1/2" thick double anodized front panels with fancy engraving and machining and fluted knobs, edge lit glass inserts, exotic looking feet, etc. all give the appearance of something special.  This has to sound better; just look at how beautiful this thing is.  Electrons could care less what front panels and knobs look like.  But we can't see electrons or how ripple-free the DC voltage coming out of the power supply is.  How the gear looks though is something one can sink their teeth into.  Appearances seem to make a lot of difference to many and the trend of audiophiles placing their beautiful looking gear between their speakers for the world to see supports that theory.  Years ago, I remember speaker systems hidden behind an open weave curtain.  The electronics were off to the side or behind the listener and there was nothing to distract you from the music which just seemed to come from the performers.     

Deer creek audio and dsp is great for two channel listening.  But they really don't have a workable solution for home theater DSP.  
 

A good DSP arrangement solves a lot of room problems and equipment problems and is underrated and not fully appreciated.  Probably because the interfaces and the product are so difficult to work with. It's a real pain in the ass to deal with DSP the way it's set up and really shouldn't be.  Mcintosh has a room treatment box that provides no graph before after and no way to make changes and requires microphone for sampling just like everybody else. It may sound very nice and very good but I wanna see something and I wanna be able to change something.

Deer creek audio is very convoluted when it comes to home theater listening. They say you can use it for this but it's really not workable.

@mahlman   you had me at "precious pebbles".   Indeed Audiogon gold. 

We wholeheartedly agree with jumia. We also believe the same for the digital components in high end audio systems.

Check out our Tech Blog on the topic:  How can Something that Costs so Little Sound so Great? 

Deer Creek Audio is an authorized miniDSP dealer.

I went to RMAF a few years back and brought my wife. She has a healthy amount of skepticism and calls it the way it is. She heads into a room with some vinyl she just purchased in the marketplace and the host throws it on. There was about 500k worth of equipment playing her disc and I knew we just approached the crossroads with the needle drop. It was unlistenable and after two tracks the album was politely returned to her. I found myself making excuses for a half million dollars worth of equipment. The room was crap, the vinyl was poorly recorded, high end systems reveal more of the truth, crap in crap out etc. Her take was she loved the artist and wanted to enjoy the record….. was tired of three days of well recorded jazz. 

Yup a 40k amp should sound better than a 10k amp but often doesn’t. If I bought it I would have auditioned it in my room to see if it met our very subjective definition of better. If I bought it without auditioning there is a good chance I would be cornered into making excuses. Been there done that. 

@mofojo 

So it's okay to spend just under $20,000 for amplifiers, but $40,000 that's too much, some people think $2,000 is too much.

Goes back to the problem of Breakin, most very expensive amplifiers are not broken in when you buy them. It takes a while. So what your hearing at the dealer if you're lucky enough for him to have a broken in higher-end amplifier that you have an interest in comes nowhere close to what it will sound like at your home. Most purchases are on faith. Gear looks pretty and expensive so I like it and I'll buy it.

Additionally if you have a large net worth spending 40 to $50,000 is all about optics. 
I suspect most of these people buying expensive gear have no idea what it is. They trust dealers and they don't install themselves. It's too damn heavy. And then they turn it on and it sounds nice. And then they go to their other homes and may not even listen to this new system they bought for quite a while. It's just a piece of furniture in the room probably a lot cheaper than the other furniture they have.
 

It's like a trophy wife, you buy the gear because it makes you feel good and you want other people to see it.  And what else are these people gonna spend their money on.  Having a lot of money it's not what it's cracked up to be. 

@jpsreno 

I agree with you on the custom built stuff by the small manufacturers, the guy I use will ask all the questions including what type of music you listen to, what type of sound you prefer, and what equipment and speakers will you be using with whatever it is you are ordering from him.

Listening music in a not-very-big-but-no-smal-room-also on a Luxman L-550, a set of Quad 2912. the turntable Denon DP-59M, Denon DL-103R and a Yamaha SACD-player S-2000, is my 'vintage' peace of cake. And I'm extremely satisfied. I think that's what it's all about. If any ones satisfaction takes a $ 40,000.- amplifier and dito high end stuf, it's should be all right with anyone. With me it certainly is. As long it's not mandatory ;-)

Pursuit of the sound you want, for most people comes down to the sound you like at the price you can afford.  with an average household income in the US of 70K less elsewhere 20K amps let alone 40K amps are out of the question.  For those who can afford it buy what makes you happy.  That said:

There are providers out their like John  at Van L speakerworks or Klaus at Oddessey, and  others, who work with you to tailor the e build of thcomponent to your needs, taste and budget.  The good ones like those guys also look at the synergy of your system, providing essentially a bespoke sound. They even take your room into consideration.   Could you spend more and get what to many would be a better sound certainly, but  personally I prefer a 2K tailor made suit to a 4K big name designer off the rack.  Preference, budget and the sound (fit).

It tells me that they likely have more money than brains.

Only on Audiogon do we get such priceless pearls of wisdom. Made my morning as I checked emails and there it was. Audiogon Gold.

  It only sounds better if you leave the price tag on there. If you put these wonders in a cardboard box so no one could see the price tag it would be plebeian sound. Did you make sure to put a bag of Precious Pebbles on the heat and cryo treated power cord. :D :D ;D

Well, in many cases comparing apples to oranges. $40k may only be medium price in high wattage solid state high end amps. Watts cost money and the better those watts  the greater the cost.

Now I'm at other end of scale, prefer low wattage SET amps, very low parts count, circuits design long ago amortized, all the money goes into output and power transformers. Kondo Audio Note only SET I'm aware of that approaches $40k.

So, it depends on the context when one speaks of $40k amp, this only mid to upper grade compared to other high wattage SS amp, In world where $100K plus amps exist $40k is relatively low cost. Compared to SET where virtually no $40k amp exists this  out of this world price. $40K as an objective price to compare with all other amps is meaningless for me.

The HiFi market (sorry Audiophile) market is so small nowadays, the manufacturers are small, they're generally a handful of guys who are putting this stuff together, there's one guy who started the company who knows a bit about circuits.   Their payroll is probably around $200K/month, and the owner needs to make a profit, and when you consider that you may only sell 10-20 units a month, you can see where the price comes from.

If you look in the mass-produced hifi gear from the 60's and 70's, those were relative bargains compared to today since they were selling volume.  HiFi was mainstream, and there was a lot of competition.   Look inside one some time.   They're built like tanks, transformers that weigh more than a small child, and many of them are still working 40-50 years later.

So no, the gearis overpriced from the standpoint of looking at the materials involved but you've got to face it that this is such a niche market anymore that in some ways it's amazing there are as many companies as there are.

Amortizing R&D cost, marketing cost, etc. is one way to set price, but price can be set on perceived value.  No matter the cost to build, if you make something that you think performs extremely well, you might set your price based on this perceived value; you will get your price if others agree, and if not, it won’t sell.  With high end audio, there are those who are willing to pay a very high premium for the particular sound they are after.  

OP,

Huge design time. Painstakingly swapping many different kinds of capacitors, resisters. Remember break in of hundreds of hours. 
 

Higher tolerances on all materials and construction. You can’t just throw it over to China to a contract manufacturer. 

Far greater testing. Boulder has a big breakin room where they run their amps full power until too hot to touch, for days. 
 

Usually greater effort in aesthetics… something that requires some one with real talent, not a high school student.

Lower volume production. 
 

in other words huge investments… and it’s sound must be commiserate with the price… and match the sound and aesthetic requirements of their clientele. 
 

Hidely risky endeavor. 

@jumia 

Apparently, you haven't been the thread closely. It has been explained many times that amplifiers (or anything) that is made from expensive parts and materials by skilled labor in very small quantities is costly. Those who make these items want to make a good profit from their efforts, as do the distributors and retailers.

No one is "misleading" anyone, and just because some can afford and want to buy these products does not make them "gullible".

I don't anything that can be supported in your comments.

No one is explaining why the price of an amp can be escalated so high?

What parts can possibly be inserted into a box to make it so expensive?

Are gullible people led to believe that it gets better than more you spend?

That don't work and it's grossly misleading for anyone to say otherwise.

@larryi 

I agree with you. Also, the question of "value" can only be answered by the buyer. If they place high value on the appearance of an amplifier whose casework adds 10k to its price, that is still good value for that buyer. There's no way to determine an absolute universal "value" for anything, although it is often spoken about reasonably in reviews on the correct assumption that the majority of readers looking for a new amplifier in the range of say, 3.5k to 5k will all have a similar take on what constitutes a good value. 

It doesn't matter what price point one picks, there is simply no amp that can do it all, be the best under all circumstances and please everyone's taste.  Yes, expensive, high-powered amps may be for some people, but, there are a few examples of breathtakingly expensive amps that are quite low in power.  What some of these can do for higher efficiency speakers is amazing.  I've heard the Audio Note Gaku-on on a number of systems and it never disappointed me (it better be good at a quarter of a million dollars).  My own $40k ish amp; sounds great to me, and it works with my 99 db/w speakers, but, it would probably be not so great with something less efficient (it is sort of rated at 5.5 wpc). 

Did I say I thought people that bought 40k amps had small listening rooms? The big 40k amps normally have enormous current reserves and crazy power ratings. I was just saying at lower levels or in a smaller room there would be less of a difference between a properly designed sanely priced amp and a 40k one.

Best thing I ever heard that sticks with me today was when I was an expat in Shanghai. It was a pair of enormous Focal Utopia speakers powered by lowly totl Mcintosh Monos that I believe were under 20k. Would a 40-50k D'Agostino have sounded better? Maybe. They sure are pretty. 

@mofojo 

Do you really think people buying $40,000 amps have to deal with small audio rooms?

Hmm ok

@mofojo 

I understand jealousy.

I totally think expectation bias and looks has a huge play. I also believe a 40k amp sounds better than a 5k amp on average. When get into the 20k plus range it’s probably more about looks than sound quality.

low volume for smallish room I think you can get amazing sound quality for a fraction of the cost. Don’t think most people could tell a difference.

yes

I’m just grateful the $20K VS $40K is not a real world consideration for me and that I’m happy with what I have.  It suits a far from ideal room that probably can’t be properly treated short of removing or covering a 30 foot wall of large windows.  How much better is Eno’s Apollo with a tranquil view?  Even at that, if I contemplate the maybe $7,500 in my analog system, it seems a bit crazy.  At least that used to be a good used car with lots of legs left.  My normal friends with their Sonos or UE Boom Bluetooth speakers and Spotify on the phone would plan an intervention.  Luckily I don’t have audiophile friends to egg me on.

No. The idea of diminishing returns of quality for investment happens much sooner than $40,000.

Howiver a $40k amp does have the potential to sound bigger and more dynamic in a much larger space than a much less expensive amplifier especially if that price is for mono block amplifiers,

It would also presumably have the capability to power much larger more demanding speakers.

I have heard $40k VAC amps sound remarkable and $40 VTL

amps sound awful.

One important aspect to recognize is that when you compare amps from different companies you are comparing different house sounds. Given we all have different values, we will prefer different house sounds more than the particular implementation.

So, say I like Audio Research’s amp sound more that Boulder. A $20K ARC amp will sound better than a $40K Boulder. But if I liked the Boulder sound my choice might be exactly the opposite.

Within house sounds (companies) the sound quality improves with greater price (let’s assume high end stuff > $5K), I don’t think I have ever heard a violation to this generality.

So, I think when you think about your experiences, you need to incorporate this into your analysis. Assuming you are not just biased against high cost. This will either leave you with too little data to draw a conclusion or likely that price / performance has a direct relationship. The slope of the line formed with these two variables will depend on how much you value improved sonic quality.

I've never known anyone silly enough to spend 40k.

For me, it is really a matter of sonic preference and not so much on price. The Mola Mola Kaluga is a no no for my ears. The D'Ag is also a no go for me. I heard that gear with Dan demoing it with $250K Wilson gear, no thanks. Magico for the most part, another no go, except for 1 model.

Ok First of all I have heard 100k amps, 50k amps and 40 k amps as well as stuff 300 to 16k.

The best sounding gear I HAVE EVER HEARD was Pilium…you never heard of Pilium because you have not been to enough places.

Audionet is also good as well as some of the new D’Agastino stuff.

I use a 9000 Luxman integrated now that replaced $16,000 class D Mola Mola Kaluga monoblocks. I am saving for a $40,000 Pilium Leonidas integrated that sounds better than some 100,000 amps I have heard. It is not just price it is sound quality I am after. You probably just heard a lot of budget stuff under 25k most of it is trash. You have to seek things out. By the way Magico who has an unlimited budget voices their M9 speakers that are $750,000 on Pilium amplifiers.

you paint a utopia that few seem to be able to find. And older speakers can sound a lot better than newer speakers

I don’t think it takes months of break in, and any decent dealer will make sure things are properly set up and functioning and not use break in as an excuse.  It is true that it is hard to do meaningful auditions; to some extent experience helps in extrapolating and getting meaningful information from an audition.  If something sounds good in a particular system, you know it is possible to get sound from your target gear; if the audition goes poorly, you cannot rule out the component because it may not be at fault.  This is admittedly complicated, but, in time you will get better at finding what will suit your taste and system.

What’s really troubling herein is that there really isn’t any explanation as to any special part or technique that creates a much more expensive amplifier.

Further, electrical equipment which is very sophisticated requires a break in period. It takes months of listening to mellow out all the components. This is especially true with speakers where mechanics of the drivers need to loosen up.

How is anyone supposed to do a comparison within a dealer with such new products that have not been broken in fully.

And then you hear people who are upset with purchases because they don’t have the patience to break things in so they do acoustical treatments and cables and clutter up their system.

Proceed gradually and work with what you’ve got and then take a chance when your inspired to buy something new.

My next move appears to be some interconnects and maybe a better quality server to replace a nucleus. And longer-term maybe I’ll replace my speakers but they look really nice and need more to break in probably. My amplifiers are mcintosh 600 W mono blocks which go really well with my speakers so no interest in changing these out.

I've not seen value mentioned thus far, many variable enter into value equations. Parts count and quality, how much one company charges for R&D, profit margins, business models, these just off the top of my head.

Making objective statements as to all $40K amps being superior to those priced beneath is total nonsense. Proof is in the listening, and for comparison to be really valid, needs to be in one's own system over long term.

Too much one upsmanship based solely on price at this forum, not enough value considerations.

Does the $40,000 amp come with $40,000 ears? 

I think you hit the nail on the head in the original post and everybody has rolled right over it. There is a cost for rarity - and there is an economy of scale. That is a big part of costs. Paying for design, parts, quality and the living wages throughout the distribution chain is one thing. Paying a premium because all of those costs need to be recouped on a relatively small quantity of goods - that is a waste of money. I don’t think there is anything nefarious going on here - it’s just math. If they were to sell 1000 40k amps a year, could they get the cost down to 25k? 

This thread is way off the rails and now has become boring.

Answer to OP and thread title. 

Maybe. Maybe not.

No! My $27k Wakarimasen Buddha Enhanced amp with power supply upgrades by Hugo Burpie blows it away! Why anything else is junk. Junk I say!

What was the question?

@jl35 

Sorry that post was meant for raymundo75

This hobby is no different than any other, if your into drag racing it cost a lot more money to make your car a few seconds faster, after that it will cost a lot more to just shave a few tenths of a second. Some people are just happy with a car that can break the 10 second mark, others want to break the seven second mark.

Every individual determines value for him or herself. I went from an under $20K amplifier to one that's over $30K and it's worth every penny to me. No, there isn't a night and day difference, but listening to music is more enjoyable. 

sure invalid, I did not mention any numbers...JB, the NAD 3020 was awesome, though I did much prefer the Mac amp and pre, though owned neither...

@invalid : give me an original NAD 3020 and I am happy! I had two of them back in 1978/79. List price then was $199! The Audio Critic tested the 3020 and preferred it over most $2000 pre/power amp combinations.

@jl35 

Why $1,000 why not $500 or better yet $200. These are just arbitrary numbers that have no meaning.

not necessarily, but unfortunately the best sounding gear to me, is expensive...there is some expensive stuff I don't like and some inexpensive stuff I like very much...but give us all more credit than we would buy expensive gear we don't really like ...

I can't relate to anything above $1000.  Any more is just for those who have too much $$.

Using percentages as far as performance really doesn’t work. It is exceptionally arbitrary as there are so many variables to sound quality and every person values different aspects.

Is it worth it, is a value judgement based on your desire for better sound and your income level. I own a $22K amplifier because I can afford a $22K amplifier…OK, let’s be honest… I can afford a $10K amplifier… but this is a disease so I bought one more expensive than was prudent.

If I could afford it I would own an amp in the $40K range, I would… in this case the own the ARC REF 160m I have that my friend lent me. I know the performance of both these amps very very well… they are sitting in front of me. To me the more expensive mono blocks are worth it.