What To Replace A Pair Of Lamm Ml2 Monoblocks With? Need More Power
If you can find a pair of ML 2s!Which "would" prove wattage is not the issue!! Current is! But the Speltz Zeros may address the impedance issue.And that’s a band-aid fix at best even with solid state or OTL, but with his SE tube amp it’s output transformer running into another transformer🤦♂️ |
nightfall OP I’m sure we could put that prognosis to bed, if you put a pair of same wattage, 20w Mark Levinson ML2’s on them, then that would show wattage is maybe not the only "issue" as you think. https://img.usaudiomart.com/uploads/large/2229202-50b93351-mark-levinson-ml2.jpg Like I said an impedance graph would be good to see. Cheers George |
check out www.tweakaudio.com Purifi amp mods |
Since you have Vandersteen 5's already, I'd look at one place to start and that's Richard's M5-HPA's. I just got a pair and am floored by how great they sound. As others have said, you need to match the speakers and the amps to get the best performance. I own Quatro's and will now sell my Ayre AX5/20 with built in crossover, because these mono blocks are so good. I've heard my Quatro's with the Ayre MXR's, Aesthetix Atlas mono blocks, Audio Research's 30k mono's, VAC's larger mono's as well as a few others and the Vandersteen amps are so far ahead of the others, that I'm floored. They are also a great size and don't throw heat like my tube mono's always have. These are a very special amp as they have a ton of power for any room you will have your 5's in as they are a perfect match. |
Ypsilon hybrid. That's what some replace Lamm with. No idea how they would drive your speakers, though. No one mentioned Allnic amps so I will. Again, no idea. And final thought. Whatever you do keep the Lamm, you are unlikely to find a substitute. Yes, get rid of Vandesteen and find different speakers. |
I think it safe to say that the ML2s are about the finest SETs made. For many years I used comparable 4 chassis 3 Dimension Audio SETs. That was until I .also changed to a speaker that needed more power. I learned a lot from my thread “ Is there a SS amp that can satisfy a SET guy?”. The ultimate answer was no. The musicality and warmth of a SET cannot be truly captured in SS. And push pull tube amps also don’t get there. However, if you love SETs, you call it warmth. If you don’t love them it is distortion. And the most significant comment in the thread was “SETs are like a sonic screwdriver that loosen the tone”. But SS amps “tighten” the tone to be somewhat too much. I learned, for me, the answer to my quest. Atma-Sphere OTLs. Simply, Atma amps are like two SETs that function in push pull. The result is a sound that captures the musicality and warmth of a SET with the detail of SS. I got my Atma M-60 amp on trial and knew within the first 30 seconds that I had found an amp that not only satisfies but excels. The 140 watt MA-1 would be the answer for you. But at a much lower price, the 60 watt M-60s would be good. Especially if you use them with Speltz Zero Autoformers which can raise the impedance allowing the amps to better drive your speakers. Talk to Ralph at Atma-Sphere. He is a real straight shooter and a great guy. He is very well known and respected on this forum. |
I think it safe to say that the ML2s are about the finest SETs made. For many years I used comparable 4 chassis 3 Dimension Audio SETs. That was until I .also changed to a speaker that needed more power. I learned a lot from my thread “ Is there a SS amp that can satisfy a SET guy?”. The ultimate answer was no. The musicality and warmth of a SET cannot be truly captured in SS. And push pull tube amps also don’t get there. However, if you love SETs, you call it warmth. If you don’t love them it is distortion. And the most significant comment in the thread was “SETs are like a sonic screwdriver that loosen the tone”. But SS amps “tighten” the tone to be somewhat too much. I learned, for me, the answer to my quest. Atma-Sphere OTLs. Simply, Atma amps are like two SETs that function in push pull. The result is a sound that captures the musicality and warmth of a SET with the detail of SS. I got my Atma M-60 amp on trial and knew within the first 30 seconds that I had found an amp that not only satisfies but excels. The 140 watt MA-1 would be the answer for you. But at a much lower price, the 60 watt M-60s would be good. Especially if you use them with Speltz Zero Autoformers which can raise the impedance allowing the amps to better drive your speakers. Talk to Ralph at Atma-Sphere. He is a real straight shooter and a great guy. He is very well known and respected on this forum. |
The impedance tailoring device(s) I mentioned are described on this old A'Gon thread (as well as a TNT write up on one). https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/autoformers-the-benefits-in-matching-amp-to-speaker https://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/zero_autoformer_e.html Not certain if they would apply to the 5A/Lamm combo, but perhaps Ralph from Atmosphere can chime in. I've only listened to the 5's (not 5A's) with 100wpc ARC tube amps (Randy @ Optimal Enchantment) and noted that the main speakers ran very low on their own as the powered subs rarely kicked in with a variety of source material. They were fine with the ARC's in Randy's fairly large listening room (super high ceiling) even @ uncomfortable (to me) SPL's. The speakers were placed @ least 6' out from the front wall, so little room reinforcement there. We were going to try them with larger (200wpc?) ARC's, but there was a cabling snafu that voided it. I preferred the warmer sound of a BAT CD deck and preamp VS an all ARC setup (ARC preamp, CD deck and amp). An Oracle/SME TT source sounded nice with the all ARC setup though. DeKay |
for what it’s worth, i only recommend and fawn over things I have actually...heard.. When I bought my 5a from Randy at Optimal is Santa Monica, he had two demo pair. One plain Jane maple, another in a wild Rosewood at his house in Malibou. H e told me to go listen to the Rosewood. He was using the Quickie 120 at home ;-) fun, enjoy the journey.... |
I’ve heard The Angstrom el 34 push pull amplifier and the Jadis el 34 (Not the KT 120 based model mono blocks). No question about both of these brands are exceptionally good sounding, very natural. You re getting into a much higher price range and I’m not sure if there’s a budget ceiling. By comparison the very well made Quicksilver is far more affordable and I suspect quite good sounding utilizing KT 150s. There are numerous good tube amplifier possibilities. I have heard flattering comments in regard to the KR Kronzilla amplifier . Charles |
I know these threads about suggested gear tend to be all over the place, so I’ll ask: Has anyone used the Vandy with Ken Stevens’ amps? He makes a stereo version that isn’t crazy money, probably within the zone of the Lamm’s value used, pricewise, depending on condition and tubes in the latter. I haven’t heard any of his amps, but know a few people that use them whose views I respect. He finally got a website too. At least the OP will stay in the zone of one man operations but you’ll lose the charm of the mad Russian. :) |
Vandersteens are awesome but they need some power to be at their best. The fact those 5as have a powered bass module, means the absolute power required is no where near as high as it could be. You have a few options. The room is large but not crazy and those aren’t difficult to drive. You could look at something like a BAT Rex 3. Two issue with BAT is everything needs to be BAT or it loses a lot in terms of sound quality so you would probably want a BAT pre as well. They use the same tube but it is also a parallel SET design which could be problematic. SETs don’t like being driven hard. One upside is you can get this on a 60 day demo from Music Direct. My hunch is a 45w push pull will outperform this when driven hard but I mention because of the tube type. Another really interesting option is Jadis. It is a KT120 based solution but is going to have oodles of power. They have a 150w class A/B amp that is $16,500. They have some high powered Class A Monos that are in the $30k to $40k range. Gorgeous equipment and a sound that is somewhat legendary. Angstrom is an Italian brand and the Stella line of products is incredible. The SSA 100 or the SMA 150 would be A+ choice. $17k and $32K respectively. It is Class A, zero feedback and uses EL34s so it has a very appealing sound. The final (and IMO best) option would be the KR Kronzilla DXL Monos. They are 140w push pulls using the Kronzilla tube and are also Class A with zero feedback. These will be closest in terms of sound to your Lamms I think other than the BAT, but the BAT seriously might struggle. I am a KR dealer and am getting ready to sign up for Jadis and Angstrom as they are awesome lines. I have no relationship with BAT. |
One aspect of the Quicksilver Mono 120 that’s intriguing is the very simpler/straightforward circuit (Only 2 output tubes per channel) which is I believe sonically advantageous (And simplicity is a strength of SET amplifiers). I could imagine this amplifier ’potentially’ mimicking some qualities of the Lamm ML2 relative to the transistor amplifier recommendations. @nightfall acknowledged, he trying to lose as little as possible the special character of the Lamm. Charles |
First, let’s be clear the Lamm amps are special. Vandersteen are designed to be an easy load. I have owned the 5a in big rooms, one 18’ x 40’ w 10’ ceilings using a 200 wpc Ayre VX-R. In smaller rooms have used something as small as 75 wpc ARC REF75se, I don’t listen super loud. In SS on a budget, I would lean to Ayre and the wonderful Aesthetix Atlas stereo, of course there are others. In Tubes ARC 150, VTL 185 and even the Quicksilver 120. The right Music Reference also would be fantastic. Jim |
Going from ML2s to a SS amp, would be quite the change. The Dartzeel mentioned or Pass Labs are the about the only ones I'd think might satisfy you. The more likely tube contenders come in many flavors. IMHO, the best high powered option for SET lovers would be OTLs, like the Atma-Sphere MA1 or MA2, the old Tenor 75s Vandys are often paired with Audio Research; if headed that direction, the KT150 tube models are the best bet, a big improvement over KT120s or 6550 designs. BAT 6C33 amps would work, but guessing the combo would be run a bit on the dark side. Manley & VTL are usually in the conversation when talking powerful tube amps, maybe someone with experience using them w/the 5As could chime in. Cheers. Spencer |
@nightfall Lots of information on Vandersteen pairings out there. I'd consider reaching out for suggestions from @tomic601 -- https://forum.audiogon.com/users/tomic601. He's a helpful and very experienced Vandersteen user and can likely point you to some useful threads with amplifier suggestions. |
nightfall OP"Could" be Vanderseen says amps 40-300 Watts into 8 Ohms and they have their own 400-Watt High-Current bass amps. I cannot find any impedance/-phase angle graph on these, so nobody knows what will be good Like I said best to get something that has no ?? on it for any kind of loading. Like the Gryphon I mentioned, and if your short of $$ for that, get the cheaper Diablo 300 Integrated https://gryphon-audio.dk/shop/integrated-amplifiers/gryphon-diablo-300-integrated-amplifier/ Cheers George |
georgehifi said: "Would be good if you can find a impedance/phase angle graph on these. Then it will be easy to find what your Lam’s were lacking, wattage or current or both. As nice as the 6c33c’s (to me the closest tube to SS) are in paralleled SE they are still tubes with weaknesses." The Lamms are 18wpc, the Vandersteens need 75-100, at least. That is the issue. |
I have the Lamm ML2 and having been using them with a pair of Avantgarde Duos I bought new circa 2006-7 (225 woofer model). I’m in a similar boat to you in that these amps bring something special to music but one is limited to very high sensitivity speakers to get the most out of them. I don’t think they’d power the Everest, which is an alternative given that they can be gotten for far less than retail even by civilian consumers who aren't in the trade. I’m normally not emotionally attached to gear (except for my old Quads, which I’ve owned since around 1973-4) but in considering alternatives, I’m doing it backwards, and trying to find a speaker to match this amp, rather than the other way around. (It’s not an immediate need for me, but the Duos are getting long in the tooth). The Lamm is special. Easy enough to sell, especially if it has seen Vlad’s ministrations at some point for a go-over. Good luck to you. Once I got these amps, about 14 years ago, I stopped looking. I’ve upgraded phono stage, line stage and other bits, but the ML2 has remained a constant for me. |
10-15+ years go there was a "cable" product that tailored the impedance match between the amplifier and the speaker that could be ordered in various configurations. Don't recall the company name, but it was popular with Stat users as well as those using lower powered tube amps with less efficient speakers. Think they sold/pair for under $1K. Anyone know what this product was, and if it's still available. On a side note I think that Steven Eddy (sp?) came up with a similar product @ one point. Just throwing this out as it may be a solution which allows the current amps to be used with the 5A's. DeKay |
nightfall OPIf you want the very "best" out of them Would be good if you can find a impedance/phase angle graph on these. Then it will be easy to find what your Lam’s were lacking, wattage or current or both. As nice as the 6c33c’s (to me the closest tube to SS) are in paralleled SE they are still tubes with weaknesses. Until we can see this graph it will be all guess work from those that haven’t listened to them with all types of amps. Unless the an amp is recommended that does it all, like the 180w Gryphon Antillion. https://gryphon-audio.dk/shop/power-amplifiers/antileon-evo-stereo/ Plenty of watts, huge current, and the ability to switch Class-A bias while listening, between 10w Class-A, 50w Class-A or 100w Class-A Great amp for Summer or Winter Cheers George |
years ago i switched from tube amps to darTZeel solid state.....that was Tenor OTL 75 watt tubes amps. you can find used dart 108's at reasonable prices. if you are serious about wanting the purity and refinement of tubes, but want the linearity and control of solid state, the darts do that. i still own darTZeel, the 468 mono blocks. |
@nightfall, JBL Everest II. https://www.jblsynthesis.com/products/loudspeakers/type/floorstanding-loudspeakers/DD67000RW.html |
I tried out a few high efficiency speakers and they didn't come close to working well in the room given its size. The Classic Audio and Volti speakers you mentioned would indeed work, but are far, far beyond my budget, even used. The room is 25 wide, and is completely open into the dining, fireplace and kitchen area behind it. It also features ceilings that vault to 20 feet. No problem with pointing out the speakers I purchased after they were clearly able to work optimally in the room. Vandersteen 5a's. |
