What the ship just happened?

FedEx drops boxes as well. I am leery of buying an amp without original boxes but no way would I pack an amp the way you have described.

Yes, FedEx or UPS, it doesn't matter.  Heavier the item the the rougher it will be handled.  A few yeas back, I had a 140 lb Jeff Rowland No 5 delivered in the original wood shipping case with all the original packing,   I actually met the driver at the street.  In order for the driver to get the package to the rear door of the truck, he flipped the create a few times letting it drop each time like he was handling a load of used auto parts.  I helped him lift it crate off the truck on once it was on the street, I told him I would take it from there.  

Once it was inside the house and the opened the crate, the amps look perfect, however, once I removed the top of the amp for an internal inspection, and both R + L channel plug-in modules were knocked out of their respective sockets and each had a number of pins bent.  Luckily, I could straighten the pins without breaking any of them and the amp worked perfectly.

The bottom line is FedEx Ground and UPS tend to handle heavy packages very roughly. Both of these companies ship many 70+ pound packages of kitty litter, dog food, and other heavy bulk items from Chewy and Amazon every day and your heavy amps will get treated just like these packages.

We use UPS only and never had a problem.  We never use Fed X for hi fi gear.  

I always insist on insurance (as a seller and a buyer) and if the seller doesn't have original shipping  boxes, I'm willing to pay for them to have it packaged at the shipping store. Of course I request a receipt for the service. It's such a hassle with which to deal.

Regarding Don Sach’s packaging, I’ve sent several items his way and half of our correspondence is about the packaging. I can’t imagine him being negligent in any way when it comes to packaging. Too, he makes a fine preamp. 

I would never buy used.  I would demand a refund from the seller for not packaging this item properly.  If this was sold on Audiogon, I would ask them to intercede.  There must be requirements specified by Audiogon for people selling equipment through Audiogon.  I would have specified to seller they must insure the item being shipped.  Did you pay for this item using a credit card?  Normally, you can stop payment on the card.  Doesn’t Audiogon require sellers to use proper packaging?  If not, what purpose do they serve?  

@ahg_ca, I never saw an H in FUBAR before. What does it stand for?

Is this the same acronym that was used by naval officers in the old days? .....beyond all recognition?

Maybe so but obviously I meant big or smart enough to design damage avoiding packaging like Schiit or PS Audio. Even someone as small as Magna does it right. If a new manufacturer doesn’t have the smarts to pack securely I will stay away from their designs.

You however are free.

Order new from China. They install enough bubble and plastic wrap for drop kicking  Or washing up intact on Tom Hanks’ beach.

@fuzztone 

I bought new. A new Don Sach Kootenay.

it arrived damaged. Combination of bad packing and mishandling.

looking at the box, the only damage was the speaker terminals coming through the outer box. So the moronic packing was the cause.

​​​​Was it mishandled as Don Sachs implied? Maybe. But the packing was not helping. He relied entirely on packing peanuts. Even with double boxing and using good boxes, everything settled and guess what...the speaker terminals went through the inner box and because they must likely 'registered' to the freshly made holes, it want long before they got through the outer box.

it was awful packing job and I blame the packer. 

So you see, your advice, being one sentence, was probably a waste of time.

Thanks for confirming that you're a d**k.

It’s pretty simple. If you insist on buying used, out of warranty you can insist on "signature upon receipt" shipping. Or eat it.

@jetter +1

nothing like a little salt sprinkled on the wound 

@fuzztone I think that's called being a d**k

I always double-box. No packaging is safe without it. costs $8 more, and I sleep better, and the buyer is happy. Learned it the hard way when shipped a lot of pottery. 

"Hope you got your money back otherwise you got ripped off."

No Kidding Edward...

Sellers fault  Improper packing.

Never use only bubble wrap or peanuts to pack a heavy item.  They are ‘air’. Think of a bowling ball in a box with only bubble wrap around it.  What happens when you drop the box?  The bowling ball hits the floor.

All shippers use automated systems to handle packages.  They are not handled by hand, and no, they don’t read ‘fragile’ tags.  So you have to package assuming that it will be dropped.  Otherwise, it’s a crap shoot.

Double boxing solves a lot of problems.

Hope you got your money back otherwise you got ripped off.

Lots of good advice. well, except for one.

Miraculously, the amp did work, mahler123......that is why I decided not to make a federal case of it. But I did want to reinforce to sellers how important proper packing is (kind of like reminding the public of the importance of using seat belts). One aspect that I did not mention in the matter was that the price of the amp was really reasonable - a tad under $200. I did not want that to color anyone's opinion in their viewpoint/recommendations. I'm using the amp to drive a pair of big Canton Ergo 90 speakers, and the sound is everything I'd hoped it would be.

Did the amp work?

That’s called OPJ packaging.

OPJ stands for Other People’s Junk. My answer to this situation would be simply return with refund including shipping.

I bought an old Mac MR 78 and wanted it tuned up at Audio Classics by Modaferri.

First, I paid up for an OEM box which was shipped to me.  Don't remember exactly, but cost maybe $75? at the time.

Next I shipped UPS insured.  It arrived there with the glass face plate broken.  An expensive replacement, I was relieved that the insurance covered it.

Although the whole process was expensive, I was happy to avoid an even more costly experience, and happy to have my tuner back in tip top shape.

One BIG no no is never just wrap a big amp(or any heavy piece of equipment) in just bubble wrap. The first time it’s dropped all the bubble wrap pops and your protection is gone.
I worked at an audio company for many years where we’d get in units to be repaired. We’d go through great pains to describe how to pack equipment when sending it in. Use hard foam insulation cut to brace the unit and double box it. There was always someone that didn’t want to go through the work and cost of doing it right and would bubble wrap an 80 or 100 pound amplifier and stuff it in a barely adequate box. The first time UPS or FedX drops it all the bubble wrap pops and it’s down hill from there. We’d get the box with the face plate or binding posts sticking through the side of the box all bent up. The delivery companies will many times claim insufficient packing and not want to pay for damages. The customer would almost be in tears when you tell them it will takes several hundred dollars to repair the shipping damage little lone what they sent it in for. And the chassis will never look the same.
We’ve actually had customers say they saw the FedX or UPS truck pull up to they’re house and roll a 100 pound amp box off the back of the truck dropping it all the way to the ground. The customers response was to decline delivery in most cases.

I always request the seller use Fed ex and then I have the package delivered to my nearest Fed ex store, this way when I go to pick it up I have the Fed ex employee open the box and we both check the contents for damage and if any damage is found I refuse delivery of the package. This way there can be no doubt about when or where the damage occurred, I have never had any problems with this method of delivery, and it assures that everyone's bases are covered.

I believe @akg_ca covered how best to protect yourself. Wait until the object of your desire is offered with OEM packaging and offer to pay for double boxing. "Fragile," This End Up," and "Heavy" stickers help as will adequate insurance. "Signature required" helps but only if you catch him first before he drops it on the porch.

If it makes you feel any better we've all likely had this happen. When I lived in S. Florida, I bought a turntable which UPS promptly left on an unprotected porch during a 6 hour rain. Drenched was an understatement and nothing was the seller's fault; it was all on UPS.

Like fraud, I see more package damage.

When I buy something, I make it clear to the seller that both insurance and double boxing is required. I will be insisting on 'signature required' from now on. I am willing to pay some additional $ if the buyer asks, I may even offer to. I figure a little extra when deciding to buy. To me, now, it's about preventing disappointment.

I mention to the seller, that any damage claim in the USA will likely be denied if the item is not double boxed.

The insurance claim must be made by the seller who both packed it and purchased the insurance. Much better to pay a bit extra for double boxing than wait for a damage claim.

Then we have to deal with shipper's indifference in the entire process. Any package damage, I photograph the box outside of my house, one with the truck in the background if possible. Keep in mind, photos are time dated as are the shipper's drivers records.

Then I open it, hoping for the best.

Air pouches, bubble wrap can all be 'crushed' inside the box, allowing undesired movement. Some non-collapsible materials are needed to prevent that.

Unless you are going to keep this forever, send it back. It is damaged and you don’t have the oem packaging, 2 of the highest issues that buyers look at when buying.

I hope you took a picture of the amp on your porch. I had a large piece of art that was damaged by ups and I took pics of the torn box the way it was delivered by ups. I submitted a claim and in the end, ups had to pay $2000 for a new frame, luckily the art work itself was not damaged.

There are too many people who sell equipment and don't take the time to package it well. I call them a word I cannot write here. The same holds true for Fedex and UPS drivers, they don't care about your package. Get a RING camera for your doors to prove packages are dropped and work out better shipping arrangements and agreements with sellers. And inspect packages upon signing... 

Seller's fault due tio incompetent and apparently careless packing. He owes you a refund.

Both UPS and FedEx are notorious for mis-handling large / heavy boxes.

1. Seller is responsible until delivered intact. Existence or omission of OEM packaging is irrelevant unless the seller promised it. This does not shift blame to the buyer as someone above tried foolishly to argue.

2. I always tell sellers that I am in no hurry, take whatever time it takes to ship it safely.

3. Never tell a seller how to ship. If you do, and there is a problem, you have taken a share of the responibility.

4. Don’t post about your problems on the internet until after they are resolved. Hopefully the seller doesn’t read this and feel thrown under the bus.

Jerry

If the amp is otherwise working as it should and the cosmetic damage is not overly objectionable, try to work out a partial refund from the seller.  If the damage is beyond what you can look at, I would ask the seller to take it back if they will. Hopefully you can resolve the issues.  

IMO, this a multi culprit FUHBAR as described

(1) SELLER

Seller chintzed it to a disgusting fault . Intuitively, it is just plain moronic for him to fail to properly pack up electronics with PROPER packing materials to both (a) adequately protect them from damage from shock, AND (b) brace them against internal damage from delivery mishandling. Negative feedback seems warranted in my opinion but onlyif you did not agree to ANY of his cheap boxing, or, he materially mislead you on this. Regardless, it should have been marked “FRAGILE “ and “ THIS SIDE UP”. etc. etc.

(2) BUYER

There is no mention of the unit having its own OEM packaging and OEM boxes that would’ve met (1).

If you agreed to this glaring omission at point of sale, then you assumed a big risk that it was a total unknown of packing adequacy , and this was entirely avoidable. Prior Seller feedback is a big indicator of Seller’s mindset and risk mitigation..,, a lack of it should have been a stark red flag.

I would never buy Pre-owned electronics for shipping without OEM packaging .,,there are many options out there with them to avoid this problem. On rare occasion that is entirely dependent on extensive Seller positive feedback, then I will take the considerable risks of DIY packing BUT with a clear written understanding and expectation to be done in a careful and diligent manner.

(3) UPS DELIVERY DUDE DUFUS

Chucking it about carelessly and casually was entirely avoidable on his part too. Good luck on getting anywhere on this because of this. FWIW, UPS is by far the WORST option by a country mile and I will always choose another option.

Was the shipping insured? If not, you are SOL.

TAKEAWAY

This is a regrettable joint sharing of risks and FUHBAR result in my view.

(a) You can try to get compensation from UPS , but good luck on that one.

(b) if you address it with Seller, he may offer something to avoid your negative feedback that will kill his future sales on AGON and other forums….. But I doubt that he will step up.

good luck ….

It was improperly packed.

• Dunnage always should be added to keep contents from moving around.
• As others have said, a flimsy box is substandard, and gear is best shipped in the original box.
• Lacking the original box, or if the original is old, double-boxing is a good option. Often, I use an extra-heavy corrugated box for the outer box.

FedEx in my experience has a better reputation than UPS, but I haven’t found that borne out in less actual damage. Anything should be packed to withstand a short fall.

You could ask the seller to pay for the damage if you took photos of the box, the packing, etc. You could even escalate to a PayPal dispute if in fact the packing was substandard, and that caused the damage. Any kind of dispute will be more difficult if you don't have photos.

fuzztone

4,243 posts

08-22-2022 at 03:38pm 

Buying new would have prevented.

Are the rest of your 4000+ posts that helpful?

No humor intended. Just the facts. You asked about prevention and then rejected a clear answer. No dialogue here. 

@fuzztone

Buying new would have prevented.

I bet there are other audio sites where your level of humor would be appreciated. 

FedEx drops boxes as well. I am leery of buying an amp without original boxes but no way would I pack an amp the way you have described. I would still use a double box and pack tight in both. 

Buying new would have prevented.