What should I expect moving from MM to MC?
I understand it depends on the setup, so I'll start here. I'm starting small (in my quest for music Nirvana!):
I was considering moving from my Sumiko Olympia MM cartridge to the Sumiko Blue Point No.3 MC Hi.
Nothing but praise for the Blue Point in all reviews. But will I noticeably hear a clearer, fuller, warmer sound? Or is it a waste on money, focus elsewhere.
Thanks in advance!
You have a nice turntable. Do you have a preamp section in the Denon that will allow you to use an MM? If not, you may want a high output SoundSmith MI cart. Best guess is that you may hear a clearer more detailed sound with better imaging. Not likely to be fuller or warmer. But these are just MM/MC general properties and as you state, it depends on setup and associated hardware. |
As mentioned, consider the Soundsmith Otello. Great cart for $400. The Audio Technica OC9 series are good value MC's. Whatever cart you have, it will be limited by the phonostage. Consider at some point a stand alone phonostage. This will be "better" than the internal in the Denon. Schiit Audio: Audio Products Designed and Built in California and Texas |
Thank you both for the responses. The Denon amp is set up for MM only, but I read that I can use an MC High Output cart with no issues. A few points/questions: 1. What I like about the Sumiko carts is their broader frequency range. The RP-500M's can reproduce frequencies up to 25khz. Some of the cartridges out there are limited at 20khz. While I've never been "tested", I have very sensitive ears and believe I can pick up frequencies over 20khz. So to this point the Otello may not make me happy but the OC9 series looks like it would. 2. So to get to the bottom of it, for more warmth and fullness am I chasing the wrong animal in looking at a cartridge upgrade? Or would I be better served with separate pre amp and amp? or even speakers that may reproduce the mid range better/fuller? Again, thank you. I am learning a lot here.
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Many manufacturers publish frequency response data limited to the "audio bandwidth", which is generally taken to be 20 Hz to 20kHz. However, nearly any good cartridge has an upper end response extending well past 20kHz. The fact that one manufacturer publishes data out to 25kHz does not at all mean that another cartridge for which the data only show the response out to 20kHz is relatively bandwidth limited. There are many cartridges (of all 3 types) that have response out to 40kHz or even 50kHz. That's not a good basis for a priori judgment of "goodness". I agree with others who suggested Audio Technica or Soundsmith in lieu of Sumiko. I have owned two high output Blue Points and found them unexciting compared to any of several very good MM or MI types. Not sure you have enough gain for the OC9 without either a SUT or a new phono stage. Find out the actual gain of your built-in phono stage, in terms of db. You'll need to know that if you want to consider mating it to a "high output" MC. (I don't like high output MCs compared to the best MM, MI, or LOMC types.) To answer your opening question: "What should I expect moving from MM to MC?" My answer is you would then appreciate the differences between the two particular cartridges; such a comparison of one vs the other would not yield information on which you could generalize between the two genres of cartridge, although some audiophiles do that. |
@tablejockey I like the idea of the pre-amp. A friend of mine recommended this, as well. Do I then route the pre-amp into the Denon amp phono inputs? Or other? |
Thank you @lewm . Your response makes sense. I am going to look into the pre-amp first with my current setup. From there I can dabble with the cartridge, if necessary. I'll look at both of the recommended ones. |
Broadly based apples-to-oranges comparisons between MC and MM are always dangerous, misleading and wrong-headed but, heck, I'm gonna do it anyway. MC carts give you more bass and more treble while MM carts give you more midrange. MC carts give you more precise imaging and soundstaging while MM carts make the images slightly larger and more visceral & attractive. Putting it another way, MC cartridges are more audiophile/detail friendly while MM carts tend to let you just enjoy the tunes. |
MC carts are just faster - by design. Less mass with the same suspension results in faster transients. High output MC’s have slightly more mass (coils of wire), but not nearly as much as a magnet. I have never done a 1:1 compare low to high output. I suspect most of us would be hard pressed to identify a difference. I stick with low outputs - just because. Your music choice may change how much of this makes it through. Punk and lo-fi doesn’t always benefit. Complex music as well as stripped down music does benefit. That being said I think you made the right choice. Start with the stand alone phono stage and go from there. Quick note - I’m not familiar with the phono you selected, but some phono stages still struggle with hum at 65db gain. Before selecting a low MC, you may want to dial up the gain on your new phono (no music playing) and double the volume at your amp. If you get noise, dial back the gain at the phono till it goes away. Try moving it around as well. Compare against noise in the system going into the phono inputs without the preamp. Once you know what gain is acceptable, you should be able to select an appropriate MC cart. Also, look into resistance loading - that can change the sound as well. For MC’s, having an input resistance that is10x the internal resistance of the cartridge is a good rule of thumb. This is almost as important as gain, but harder to detect. Most systems have more gain than needed. MC’s running wide open (47k) loose their body and sound thin, generally speaking. |
warmer and fuller are not necessarily what lomc carts bring to the table. you will get a cleaner, more refined sound which is abig step up in quality from most mm cartridges. also because of the lower moving mass an mc is typically more dynamic and full of life and musical energy. think huge crescendos and fast musical transitions. many people who want warmer and fuller sound have system issues to fix and are trying to mask a lack of refinement. start with perfecting your speaker positioning. |
mucker the type of question you ask is really answered by hearing things for yourself. As you can see, you will get responses that equate to yes, no, maybe, sort of, no because of...yes, because of...I worked for me, it didn't work for me... Get the drift? All the cartridge types can so "good." Just have a decent setup to make it shine, so your ears can decide. |
I really appreciate all of the replies. I’ve learned a LOT, just from this one topic. Many of your responses have inspired me to do a little more online research, which leads to more investigation and research. All in all you’ve set me on a good course. Let’s face it: I’m a budget hi-fi/audiophile. Some of you have cables that cost more than my entire setup.
I’m starting with the Schiitt pre-amp that should arrive here in a few days. I’ll play around with that and listen to a lot of vinyl to compile my impression of where I am at that point. If necessary, I’ll probably dabble with a better cartridge, hopefully something MC so I can hear what all the hubbub is about. My Olympia is a $200 cart, and one website said I should probably pair my $1,000 TT with something closer to the $400-$500 range. Many good suggestions in this post worth looking into. Finally, and it probably won’t come to this, but I can always upgrade speakers. I mean, who can’t (or doesn’t like doing so)? I’m also learning that my misconception on the frequency range of the cartridge isn’t as important as I had originally thought. 20hz-20khz covers what I can hear. So it comes down to tonal qualities, fullness and clarity. This opens my eyes to a much broader range of potential upgrades in cartridges. Thanks again. I may be old, but I’m still learning. |
@karl_desch 1++. The Blue Point is not the world's best tracker. Soundsmith cartridges are renown for their tracking ability and detail. A high output Soundsmith like the Otello or the Carmen if you can afford it would be excellent choices another would be the Goldring 1042 is another excellent high output cartridge. It has the same stylus as a $16,000 Clearaudio Goldfinger. |
Lots of useful information here mucker. Having had 50 years of experience playing vinyl with turntables and cartridges of all types since the 1960s I can say this: #1 Moving Coil cartridges have clear advantages over moving magnets if you can buck up to pay for the good ones. On a limited budget, you likely might have better sound from a higher end moving magnet or moving iron cartridge than a lower end moving coil. #2 The phono stage upgrade is likely to give you a very worthwhile improvement in sound for a relatively small outlay, even with your currrent cartidges. #3 The best moving coil cartridges are generally lower output. When you get into those cartridges, set up and impedance loading are important and you need a much better phono preamp to allow you to do this. #4 In my experience different Cartridges Brands have different house sounds and sonic signatures and you need to read reviews to get a sense of where to go with that. For example, with low output moving coils, the Lyra brand tend towards clear, and a bit analytical. Koetsu and Benz, tends to sound a bit warmer and more forgiving. In general though, most moving magnets tend towards a warmer sound. Going up the Sumiko like you will get more clarity for sure but not necessarily more warmth. #5 Lots of people buy a cartridge only to find the cartridge is not what they expected or wanted from a sonic profile point of view, wait until they break in ( 50-100 hours) and when they don’t change enough to their liking, list them for sale. Consider buying a lightly used cartridge....if it doesn’t live up to your expectations you can sell it for what you paid for it. #6 With added detail and clarity from moving coils, flaws in vinyl are often more apparent as well. So best if your record collection is in very good condition. |
Zarzu, you say MC cartridges are”faster” because they have lower moving mass with the “same suspension “. Yes, MC cartridges tend to have less moving mass compared to MM cartridges, but no, the suspensions are not the same. MM cartridges tend to have much higher compliance than a typical MC. That high compliance should enable an MM to better navigate the groove undulations. And if low moving mass is your god, then you ought to be using an MI type; MIs have the very lowest moving mass possible. My point is not to defend MM cartridges but to call attention to the fact that the best test for comparing cartridges is a listening test. If you have an open mind, you’ll be pleasantly surprised to find you don’t have to spend $10,000 on a LOMC cartridge to achieve your own Nirvana. And these empirical arguments audiophiles make without actual supporting data are sometimes hogwash. |
Analog LP is a pain. I advise you spend equal amounts on your phono preamp and cartridge as your TT. Used market cut that in half. MC LO vs HO MC the LO Output will pick up more Suttle details such as string vibration and tones in wood instruments sound right. HO is not a bad either. HO Chamber echos sound good and the recording should sound as intended with less noise pickup. Price usually dictates quality. As far as jump from MM to MC I would probably say price is more important across the entire chain. Everything matters and you need to learn a lot have fun. Its best to learn setup and what is going on yourself. My Analog was less quality then Tube DAQ. But after learning applying and just keep working with what I have now Analog is better. Things may take longer then you think. Its always good to notice quality within the few hours things sound good then it may take months to finally realize what the capabilities are. |
+1 for what @alvinnir2 has written. The way I would put it is that the movement to a MC cartridge would be expected to give you more of what we used to call low level information. That translates principally to things not available in the specification of a cartridge. The include space, instrumental articulation, & solidity or roundness of the instrumental sound. These things all contribute to the sense of being there in the recording. That would be the good news. The not so good news IMO is that a high output MC is not likely to provide these benefits because the stylus, like that in MM cartridges, is just carrying too much weight at the other end. Also, you might also have to invest more in the rest of your system to fully appreciate these improvements. I pay very little attention to reviews. They are just there to sell. Consensus opinions of actual purchasers, as fond in places like this have never failed me. It takes a bit longer to figure out but it pays in the long run. Not like the quick fix of a review. |
Although there was a brief discussion of >20khz response, the OP has repeatedly prioritized a "fuller, warmer sound". This sounds to me like the mid-range. The original holder of the MC patent was audio legend Joe Grado. However, he didn't make them. A believer in the importance of getting the mid-range right, his cartridges were MI (Moving Iron). AFAIK, Grado & Soundsmith are the major MI cartridge makers today. The Schiit Mani 2 gives you plenty of versatility for optimizing your phono sound, and should result in meaningful improvement. Upgrading your cartridge will cost more, but should also make a bigger difference in the sound. |
@ronald_p Great point about the used market. Definitely a way to upgrade and save some money at the same time. Mani 2 has arrived and works as advertised. I'm going through my albums on different eras and genres. So far I wall say there are notable differences, including the ones I was hoping for: broader soundstage and a boost in the previously flat mid-range frequencies. Vocals and solo instruments have come forward and the oomph of the bass with the fuller mid range have filled in the gaps. Thank you all for the recommendations. I'll still go through a re-listen to most of my collection. Two albums that I love but just didn't sound right were:
At some point I'd like to upgrade to a MC cartridge just to hear "what's next" in my sound journey, but the urgency has gone away, as the phono-amp has pushed this back. In a small 12 x 12 office with not-so-optimal acoustics, the sound is terrific right where I have it.
So thanks again everyone! |
