What's your "diminishing returns" preamp choice?

But how do we know that the power amp don't color the sound as well since the signal has to go through different circuits there.

Simple: It does.

Very good recommendations above but some say that the preamp colors the sound. But how do we know that the power amp don't color the sound as well since the signal has to go through different circuits there.

would be interesting to have a 'quietest' contest and then a 'musicality' contest between the benchmark and an ayre k5xe mp

I had a Thor TA-1000 MKII preamp that retailed new for around $11K. Having tried a number of different preamps over the years, I genuinely thought that the Thor was at the line of diminishing returns, and that it wasn't really necessary, sensible, or practical, to spend more.
That was until I heard the Allnic L-5000 DHT, which I now own. I didn't think there was THAT much more performance to be had from a tube linestage, but I was mistaken. Yes, the Allnic comes at a much higher price, but it's one of those rare pieces that make me think it was money well spent.
I'm curious to hear an Atma-Sphere pre and also a BAT at some point in the future. Perhaps the line can be nudged a little further still!

Ok, so I still gauge diminishing returns against a venerable preamp I bought in the early 80's, the DB Systems 1b/2a/4b.  I've had it updated twice.  Other than a brief stint with tubes, it's my reference preamp.  The only reason I'm not using it right now is it doesn't have some of the features of the newer preamps.  I think I paid something like $800 in 1982 money for it.

If you can find one, the Ayre K-5xeMP is an amazing preamp for the money.  New it was $3500 to $4350 depending in the year but was brilliant.  You should be able to pick up a used unit in the $1800 to $2200 range depending on condition.  

I regret selling mine simply because it was such an amazing unit for the money.  I have added two units to my system since it left (PS Audio BHK and Art Audio Conductor) and they are both better but are quite a bit more expensive and the Ayre deliver 95% of the quality of the PS Audio and 90% of the quality of the Art Audio.  

@gmercer 

 mcintosh is amazingly pure, and damn near flawless.     Never owned, but hundreds hours of auditions.
 They are that good.
if you can swing, afford a good Mac pre, jump fast.

 Or try a couple different ones.

 It’s fun trying diff components and their signature sound, with your existing setup.

 Took me years to acquire what I have now.
30+ years 

Everyone will post their personal purchases in a message post like this.


  Own several preamps!

McCormack LD-2
onkyo p-308B&K pro10-mc
Sanders sound preamp”

 to me the best sounding is still the Onkyo p-308, she is just outstanding, bass, features, looks, etc.
such a great pre”

2nd is the McCormack followed closely by the Sanders sound preamp. (McCormack and Sanders are darn close for being neutral and straight wire w gain.

 B&K pro10-mc  a nice neutral last (no slouch at all!)
very good pre,  needs a service and recap,bought new in early mid-90s’
used. A lot.
needs some nice Teflon caps and a break in!

check the Onkyo p-308, Ebay has em once in a while, worth the buy, and sending in for a upgrade and recap. Yes, that good!

 Sanders sound pre is also a straight wire w gain, the cleanest and purest pre I’ve owned, 

 trial and error, try many, choose 1 or 2.
 I like to have a backup pre, and amp just in case”

enjoy the hunt.

For me it is McIntosh. The preamp is perfectly transparent. I see no reason to move up from it with price vs diminishing returns in mind.

Absolute biggest bang for the buck is the Linear Tube Audio MZ2. You would have to spend a few thousand more to see improvement 

Best bang for the buck I have acquired is a Halcro DM8. Bought it from The Music Room and it is in like new shape. I am not fond of tubes any more and prefer the unassuming and even keeleed presentation of this preamp. Kind of ugly though and takes up too much room in my audio rack.  

Benchmark HPA4 ($3k). The best audio component I have ever bought. The LA4 is the same without headphone ($2.5k).

The great thing about this unit is that it is quieter than likely EVERY other preamp and DAC out there. It also does not have much of a sonic signature so you can flavor your sound with speakers and amps.

Vinnie Rossi preamp but with the "300B Tubes" and a Pure Audio Amp sounds perfect to me! 
Now if they only used Acora Acoustics speakers in this system too it would be a lot better...As Perfect as it gets in 2020?! 

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0iARGZpGTM

I love my Rogue Audio RH5 Linestage and headphone amp.  At $2500 without phono stage it uses two 12au7 tubes, massive power supply transformers, 3 gain settings (really nice feature), balanced output and one balanced input/ 3 single ended inputs.  it is also a world class headphone amp ( dont use it though ).  
stereophile class A, super clear, refined and dynamic sound.  

For me it will be CH L1+X1 paired with Mephisto stereo coming winter.Life's too short lol.

@gochuchgo There are a number of single-ended 6SN7-based line stages I've seen that do the job.

I’m not sure, how much is a CAT?

I ask this because I've heard different but never have I heard better.

I've seen $2000 preamps take $13,000 preamps and eat them for breakfast- better in every way.

Tell us more please @

THE Aragon preamp I bought used ,had it 4 months and now its Dead.

I'd probably get Lamm or Gryphon thinking of either as the best value too, and be happy ever since. Or maybe older top of the line Rowland.

Not a preamp but if 60w/ch is enough to float the boat the bel canto c5i integrated has it all and would be the last piece 98% of music enthusiasts would ever need IMHO.

I'm with SOCFAN12 here. I bought an Ayre K5XE-MP from a Bethesda Maryland Retailer (who sells their trade-in stuff on A'gon). I have it paired with a Bryston 14BSST, and a logitech transporter (playing mostly FLAC files and Apple lossless).

Vanishingly low levels of noise, absolutely musical. I tried swapping out the K5XE-MP with a KXR-Twenty (that costs twenty thousand) and there was no audible difference (to me). Self-built cables (refuse to pay stupid money for copper wire coated with fairy dust)

The K5Xe-MP is in my system to stay. I also like the fact that the serial number was "penned in" with a "Sharpie" :-)

+1, Socfan12 and Cerrot.
The Ayre k--5xeMP pulls everything together making the whole a whole lot better than the sum of its parts. An absolute bargain at about $3.5k.
:) J.

I'd love to hear the backert preamps. Bob repaired my joule a while back and was great to work with

Hi Michael,

Yes, that link sums it up pretty nicely. I've heard both the Backert Labs preamps and agree with the heart of the PFO review. Didn't get to roll any tubes, and IME that implies an even higher ceiling. I like the clever magnetic "pop-top" in the luxury model.

FWIW, Backert is no rookie. He has been doing mods to Conrad Johnson and many other top brands for decades under his other business RHB http://www.rhbsound.com/. Since Bob is a member of our local Philly area audio club (www.paagonline.org), I can say from personal experience that you won't find a more credible, humble and talented guy in the business. Many people I know have raved for years about Bob's ability to improve the sonics of their high end preamps & amps.

I hope to check out their room at Capitol Audio Fest w/Martin Logan. Cheers,
Spencer

Hi Spencer

I understand there is a drawing for the 3K Backert Labs preamp. They also have a 7K model with some very interesting features. Check out this link.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=131221.msg1452775;topicseen#new

Vincent SA-T8. I own 4 Pre-Amps and have heard many more. Competes with Pre-Amps up to 10k. Superb dimensionality, soundstaging,dynamics. Musicality in spades.

Socfan12, you will also see you have more resolution, especialy in the midrange and no loss of resolution when you lower the volume.

I am very impressed with the new $3k model from Backert Labs. Think they will have it at Capitol Audio Fest. Cheers,

Spencer

cj ET5

I recently purchased an Ayre K5xe-MP here on Agon and absolutely love it. I was playing my CH Precision C1 dac direct into my CH Precision A1 amp and it sounded great, but with the Ayre there's a slight sweetening of the sound with no or little loss of air and dynamics playing the C1 direct. I think the K5xe-MP is a steal even at full list.

I can list off preamps up to 8K that couldn't hold a candle to my LDR at 1/8 the price.

Shakey

I use a Passive DIY built clone of a Music First Baby reference, which is excellent for detail and transparency, but lacks the last bit of slam and dynamics.

This quote by David12 is something I have heard many others say about passives and is consistent with what I personally hear from the two resistor-based passives I own.

I have owned some 20'ish preamps in the $3-10K price range, including many of which are still current models. For me, the merry-go-round stopped with my McCormack TLC-1 that Steve McCormack at SMc Audio upgraded/rebuilt with the single goal of providing the best sound possible. It is now a zero-gain, balanced, buffered-active preamp with an outboard choke power supply, Lundahl transformers, Jensen copper foil caps and a Shallco discrete-resistor volume control with Audio Note resistors. It has a new black faceplate and is pictured on the SMc Audio website and on my A'gon virtual system page. It just kills every other preamp I have owned. I highly recommend you give Steve a call and discuss your options. One of the best audio purchases I have made.

Has anyone ever heard a bottlehead beepre? I've been intrigued by 300 B preamps for quite some time and loved the DIY aspect of the hobby. So I really been thinking about giving the bottle head A try.

David your comment about older generation cj preamps is interesting and timely in my case. I recently purchased a PV9 from the estate of a recently fallen audio friend at a very good price. He supposedly had work done on it but looking inside it appears stock, so I don't know what. Having owned both a PV7 and PV5 in the 80's I've always been a fan of the CJ. What I like about the PV9, much better than the other two with the huge power supply is the 3D layering of instruments and a natural tonality, more of a mid hall presentation than upfront/direct which I also like. The older CJ components I've listened to all seem to have this characteristic. The only issue with this unit is that it just doesn't resolve everything in the manner of a newer design although there is much to like otherwise. I am considering upgrading to better teflon/polypro coupling and filter caps to see where it might go. The only issue is cost vs gain since there is no way of knowing the end results and recapping will not be cheap. Factory upgrades to teflon would be quite expensive, more than I would want to pay. The big consideration here is the phono stage is included, a big plus since that was the main focus on this unit when it was introduced.

I use a Passive DIY built clone of a Music First Baby reference, which is excellent for detail and transparency, but lacks the last bit of slam and dynamics. I recently bought an ex Dem Modwright 36.5, which is marginally better because of the extra said slam. I am surprised nowone mentioned Modwright, which seems to produce value across it's range, not cheap, but good value. It certainly betters the ARC Ref 3, I tried in my system a while ago.

Going back 10 years, before I went integrated, the Conrad Johnson Premier 17 was pretty darn good. I suspect that, older generation of CJ amps could still give most modern Pre's, stiff competition.

Tubegroover, I appreciate your suggestion. I will try to check out the Odyssey Candela. I'm looking for a very transparent and accurate preamp. One that conveys all the detail and nuance of recordings. Also, it must be fast enough to accurately reproduce fundamental notes of percussion. If all this could be combined with a bit of warmth and a 3d soundstage that tubes yield, it would be ideal.

I have tried the no preamp approach. While I do see some of the benefits of doing this, I overall prefer having a preamp. To my ears, having a preamp does add a slight bit of distortion but yields better dynamics and brings out more details of recordings. The trade off is worth it in my opinion.

Thanks to all for the useful info.

You are correct about the power supply. The best preamp will be battery powered (IMHO).

Woofer72, I have been going through somewhat of a "final" pre-amp search myself. It is the ONE component I would pay more for to find a notable improvement. Generally what you get with more expensive designs is larger power supplies, better parts and construction but I really believe that in conjunction with that what is equally important is the simplicity of the design itself which can make many lower priced preamps really make you question how much to spend.

I really have been enjoying a Supratek Syrah for many years with little interest in pursuing the upgrade path full well knowing that there IS better BUT I recently changed amplifiers and the seed of change is planted and I am also looking, considering numerous options but far from settling on anything as of yet.

One thing I would bring to your attention is the Odyssey Candela. What I REALLY like about this preamp is the fact that it is a budget priced linestage at around 1.6k with pretty lofty performance at its price. I would describe its sound as warm, VERY resolving with well defined image outlines but most importantly, an SET like tonal presentation, really drawing you in. This is but an example of what might be out there. The Dehavilland or possibly a used Cary are other excellent considerations as well but this Odyssey REALLY caught me by surprise, lent to me by a friend. It's hands down better than another 4K preamp I directly compared it to and the linestage is better than the Supratek. On the other hand the Supratek has a great phono stage and excellent dynamics, probably the best 2.5k I've ever spent on an audio component. You might want to try their free home audition. Its hard to imagine you wouldn't like it.

I've lived in the no preamp is the best preamp and passive worlds. Both provided happiness and long-term satisfaction. I think everyone should experiment, as despite what anyone claims, those options do offer the best solution for many people. Or, many people at that particular junction in time...

Now, playing along that you want an actual preamplifier, my vote for "diminishing returns" preamplifier goes to the AES (Audio Electronic Supply / Cary) AE-3. With the statement that different components perform better or worse depending on the system they go into out of the way, I've seen this little preamp sound flat out amaze people. In fact, as good or better than some that if mentioned here would react like throwing gasoline on a fire. My only reservation is that it doesn't include a phono stage for those who require same.

I am not an expert like the rest of the folks who are posting but would say that a preamp shopper needs to try a PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium.

Hand wired, dual momo, many available replacement tubes, etc., etc. for $3K new.

this is the best my system has sounded - Maggie 3.6 and DWM bass panel, Ric Schultz modified Oppo 105, and W4S amp.

Yea, I know it is my current preamp!

Enjoy the journey!

Whatever Ralph, believe what you want.

I use an "old and no longer available" Kavent S-33 dual mono balanced preamp which is the same damn thing as a Vincent SA-91 (even says that on a circuit board) but re-branded for reasons I don't remember…it sounds amazing (has an isolated dual mono power supply in it's own 3rd of the case) and will stay in my system until it dies and I can't find anybody to fix it, because it likely has zero re-sale value anyway. I could find a different sounding preamp, or a tube preamp, but a better sounding preamp? Doubtful, but I don't seem to care anyway…I do use a tube power amp with it and somehow this combo does the job (also a SS REL sub driven by the tube amp…is that cheating?)

Both! You can't see the forest through the trees?

These are both in reference to a source with a weak tube output stage, geeeeish!!

And don't even come into play if the source has a good low solid state output impedance.

I can see forests pretty well and also am pretty good at contradictions. Since you did write both statements I accept that you believe both of them but just so you know, if that is true it is also true that you are contradicting yourself.

Perhaps it would help if you defined what is meant by a 'weak tube output stage' (since tubes can easily drive headphones if set up properly; we can do it with our UV-1 preamp) and also what you mean by a 'good low solid state output impedance' as clearly Oppo, Wadia, dcS and others apparently do not qualify. I am assuming you mean 'output impedance', perhaps you have some numbers?

It took a $2000+ preamp (Musical Fidelity kW) to give me what I felt combined the best aspects of the passive (detail) and active (bass impact, dynamics, oomph) preamps I'd tried previously. Prior to that preamp, there were more tradeoffs that had to be made in my consideration.

For me, i'd be done once I upgrade to a Vitus SL-102 preamp which is as good as I could ever need or want for my tastes. The nice thing about this preamp is it is modular in construction & is able to be upgraded in the field as new modules become available. Obviously not cheap, though that would likely be my last preamp (accepting upgrades over time).

07-15-15: Zd542
I buy audio components for the status they place me in the audiophile community. For me, the law of diminishing returns runs backwards. The more I spend, the better the value.

and you forgot to write that we respect you more & more when we know how many $$$$$$ you have spent on audio gear....... ;-)

image is everything!

Both! You can't see the forest through the trees?

These are both in reference to a source with a weak tube output stage, geeeeish!!

And don't even come into play if the source has a good low solid state output impedance.

Cheers George

In fact passives are usually better if they are full up, as there is less shunt resistance to ground, so the source (if a weak tube output) sees an even easier load, which equals better dynamics for them.

Passives sound just the same down low as they do up high, so long as the source is not a weak high impedance tube output stage >1kohm

These two contradict, both written by you. So which is it?

My experience mirrors the former rather than the latter (we used to build a passive years ago and continue to test them); all (and I do mean all) weaken the bass as you turn it down from full. For our testing we used a CDP with a solid state output; it is by no means 'weak'.

Some of this of course depends on the source- for example if an output coupling cap is involved (which it almost always is). But its all moot if you have a preamp as it buffers the input from the output cable.

I went with REF5se thinking the cost vs performance trade to the Aniv model to be beyond prudent...would probably still make that decision..the REF 10..same thinking...listening, hearing...for me anyway...I guess I lean to upper mid Giant killers...