What is the most challenging music to play on a stereo?

Piano. 

"...more of a Mullard EL34 sound vs Gold Lion KT77. Hope that makes sense."

@pangeek yes, that does make sense :)

Another challenging track is Run Like Hell from Pink Floyd's Pulse album.  The drum strike at the end of the song blows the hair on my shins backwards!

@johnk +1

Mike

@johnk 

Ok, that is funny.

Pipe organ. When I bring such recordings to demo audio most won't even play it. Others look like scared rabbits when asked.

Music of a genre I didn’t understand or was unfamiliar with..

@edcyn 

thanks so much for that explanation.  Totally makes sense and gives me more appreciation to listening for details with piano playback in my system.  I also have to add that playing at the proper volume would get you closer to realism, just don’t overload the room.  This discussion is quite interesting with everyone’s feedback and vast knowledge and experience. 

Doug Wamble - Blues in the Present Tense

As with this hobby there are all differing opinions so here’s mine…. The hardest music to play is the music you love and are familiar with.  You build and tweak your system to make the stuff you love sound the best.  And if you’re like me with a wide palette it’s near impossible to achieve the best of everything. 

Topic follow-up...

Last Sunday, sat Row 3 Center --- at nearby Bowdoin College Concert Band concert...40+ musicians at full roar...band, not an orchestra...no drawn strings involved.  I officially surrender to the futile concept of ever experiencing THAT dynamic in my small studio!  That said, THIS Thursday, I will be meeting two longtime friends who both prefer large horn systems near Boston: 

Steve, in Hudson Valley, NY, spins uber vinyl...mono, two channel plus surround in the beautifully-thought-out, converted dedicated music space of his converted winery Guest house garage.  Jeff, our experienced Host in Massachusetts, has done DIY for decades, and has written audio reviews.  He also spins vinyl into large DIY horns and subwoofers and sports many years of subwoofer expertise.  Along with Steve, this will be my first visit.

Let' see how a well-designed large horn system matches the shuddering, rumbling gut-punch of Sunday's experience?  And yes, Karen Sumner (see above) ..."the sound system's ability to reveal the finer musical details of the performance, the sound of the instruments, the venue, are far more relevant to creating a fulfilling musical experience than analyzing specific sonic qualities."  ...well stated, Karen.  And ya, I did close my eyes as I often do in my little studio.           

...planning to report back       (bold print for old eyes)            More Peace!         Pin

In general I'd say Classical  but more specifically  

Dvorak's  Symphony #5. " From The New World "

and or Beethoven's Piano Concertos .  

Try Shostakovich Symphony No 10 with Andris Nelsens conducting , that will clean your ears out and rattle the crockery !!!

Been listening to Dark Side of the Moon every time I try out a system for the past 44 years. Good to use the same music whatever it is I think. Plus, I never tire of listening to it. Greatest album of all time! IM(less than humble)O

@pangeek --

Yes, all the hammers on a true acoustic piano are padded. Some brands more than others. As the piano is played and the hammers strike the strings, they eventually compress & harden up and produce a brighter tone. When things go a little too far, a piano tech might soften the hammers, giving them a bit of their previously rounded tone.

I never owned a Steinway (I just never had the lucre), but the ones I lovingly "tested" at the piano dealers varied immensely, from bright to mellow. I have to say, though, that they never sounded rinky-dink.

I’ve read a phrase here that stated “help, my Steinway sounds like a banjo”. I always recollect to this phrase when listening to solo piano. Months ago I was invited to a friends home and they have a vintage Steinway Baby Grand (which was just tuned). I had him play a few things and also played with the piano myself (the little I can bang on the keys) and I noticed there is a little muffle when the the hammer hits the strings. The hammer has some sort of velvet on it and so the instant that hammer hits the string, the note is actually not as airy and sharp. For the Tube amp guys here I would explain it as more of a Mullard EL34 sound vs Gold Lion KT77. Hope that makes sense.

The Dan! yes, the question could use refining though.  If the recording is bad, any kind of music. A bad pressing or mastering what ever.  If the recording is noisy or compressed or has background noise that makes it hard to play, or listen to.  If the recording is a good one,(any type of music, even country or Hair Metal), the stereo has a better time delivering it.  A quip comes to mind, "Don't shoot the messenger".  

So even the "Dan" as in Steely, can be a test for a system, but at what volume?  In what room, and so on.  

But to the assumed meaning of the question, I say Piano is the hardest to process for a stereo at any volume or in any room played by even a master!  

I started to say 'Piano' because of the dynamic range and impact of a Grand Piano. Tough to set up a system that can do this, even if you've found a recording where the engineer had succeeded.  But on reflection it has to be classical orchestral music where you have a much more apparent dynamic range and integration with a symphony hall as well as appropriate sound from different points in the hall. Too much to expect anything that is really live like. With a piano you can come a bit closer I think. One of the killers in orchestral recordings is the practice of spot lighting strings for example. Often bright to the extreme on a recording but rarely so in a live event. But its all good anyway.

For me, busy rock music with piano.  Large bands with many instruments competing for space are challenging to record and mix and then reproduce.  If this can be resolved then I'm always impressed.  

Skinny Puppy is indeed not for the (faint of heart).

;-)

Skinny Puppy's entire catalog is a challenge for any system and every listener. Intentional distortion, symphonic synthesizers, plenty of fast low end bass, ominous synthesizers, distorted vocals. It invites loud listening but also easy to start clipping your amp(s) and your speakers will be tested as well as your ears. Not for the faint of heart. But a properly dialed system will reveal the depth and complexity of the recordings. Moderate/medium volume is the best way to listen. 

@dain … “However, if you actually attend a concert, it’s not really that loud. ”

It depends on where you sit and in which concert hall. I have had season tickets in the 7th and 8th row center in a very good concert hall for a decade and the crescendoes peak above  what my ears could comfortably handle. So, I have not measured the spl… but I am sure it is over 100db. 
 

My seats are under the microphones used when recording a concert to produce an album. It is plenty loud.

Definitely piano. Years ago I went to a repair, upgrade business in the bay area. The proprietor was playing some piano music on Audio Note speakers. Talk about realistic sound. 

Thanks for the question, CDC.  

Several responses more address what flavors one prefers, not what most tests a system.  I'm partial to the question because there are a tiny, few genres I don't enjoy.  As a result, my system needs to do large, small, intricate, bombastic, subtle, caressing, punishing...well, you get it.  Choices are mood driven, in the moment.  Surprisingly, the right TUBE amplification, loudspeaker/room provide the best dynamics in my experience.  For me, tubes also provide the best holography, harmonic subtlety and "aahhh factor"...the overall sensation that all is well with the system.  That last one is difficult to define.  With a digital source, there are times when something seems amiss...like a phase issue or some inner distortion.  In my experience, digital playback wants tube(s) in the chain.  

Very challenging to a system is a full orchestra, not only at full roar, but, interestingly, the softest passages, where one can easily lose interest if not up to the task.  Here is an interesting exchange between Transparent Audio's Karen Sumner and Steve Guttenberg:

"Guttenberg: Hey, I'm an audiophile, and I take great pleasure in both music and sound. I believe that the audiophile lexicon—transparency, soundstage, etc.—can raise the listener's awareness and musical satisfaction.

Sumner: I disagree with you. I don't believe that soundstaging, for example, exists in real life the way we hear it in a two-channel audio system.

Guttenberg: Really!?!

Sumner: Really. We don't hear "soundstaging" at a live concert. You don't get pinpoint imaging in three-dimensional space in a concert hall—that's a recording artifact, and terms like "soundstage" are musically irrelevant. In that way of thinking, the recording has become the absolute sound, not the music. Yes, the concepts are interesting from an intellectual standpoint, but those words fixate audiophiles on specific elements of sound, as opposed to the entire musical presentation. I think audiophile magazines have really done our industry a disservice by defining the High End in terms of a "sound" lexicon. For the most part, the press seems to have missed the point—that the sound system's ability to reveal the finer musical details of the performance, the sound of the instruments, the venue, are far more relevant to creating a fulfilling musical experience than analyzing specific sonic qualities."
 

Yesterday morning, I pulled up Santana's "ABRAXAS," played loud!  Some of those cuts are challenging indeed, as are Feat's "Waiting for Columbus" AC/DC Live, organ, the subtleties of Eva and Ella live, Domingo, Callas, and Ellington.  Asking one system to do all this with aplomb is an extreme challenge and most difficult to achieve with one person's skills, alone.  Many, many audio friends have helped me.  Reach out to others.  Collaboration has been most important to my journey, creating deep friendships valued as highly as the music we share.

More Peace          Pin

Wagner absolutely. For example the last ten minutes of Siegfried. 

It clearly depends on what music you listen to the most, and what you want from your system.  I am a lover of jazz and chamber music.  I've recorded and attended concerts and know what full orchestra dynamics are, and I' recorded and listened to pipe organs.  So here is my take on these.....which ranking or preference you have is up to you.  

1.  Vocals .... Sinatra and Bonnie Riatt are my favorates.  The voices should sound like voices.... no sibilants, mistracking or any obvious reproduction issues.  The vocals should have "presence" but the tonal balance has to be highly agreeable to you.  Otherwise very good systems can add a little tenor emphasis or a little alto emphasis to both their (and many other voices).  But in either case the voices must sound natural.

2. Jazz .... well recorded club music.  Make sure their is both width and depth to the sound.  As somebody stated earlier, make sure the piano sounds "all of a piece" top-to-bottom. Likewise the string bass....plucked strings should sound "all of a piece" dispite the disparate range. Brass should have no tracking issues.  There is no substitute for attending a fair number of jazz sessions in different club environments to train your ears to these sounds.   You might need to use several disks as references, since club recordings are difficult to record really well.

3.  Chamber music ... evaluate much like jazz, live recordings if possible.  Sit a few times in the closest row; a few times further back with some hall sound.  Get familiar with both.  Chamber music can be recorded many ways....some natural and some simply mono-mic'd.

4.  Symphonic Orchestra ... make sure that you are using recordints that actuall allow the hall acoustics to be heard.  Know the type of gear used (older classical music from the 50's, 60's, early '70's often showed photos/described the recording set up.  Know what an ORTF mike setup sounds like; know what a three channel mono setup sounds like.  Make sure your amp/speaker combination can handle the loudest sections without cartridge breakup or speaker breakup at the loudest levels you will listen.

5.  Pipe Organ - Get a recording or two from a church or cathederal playing music that has 32hz pedal notes....these should be solid and if you are on a wooden floor, should usually create a vibration as well (below 32hz you will mostly "feel" vibration).

*********************************

Hope this provides help in one way or the other for some folks here.

Something I know and like that is well recorded.

Agree on classical. However, if you actually attend a concert, it’s not really that loud. Depends on the piece, but blasting some crescendos isn’t going to tell you much. I’d go for organ. It’s actually the first hi-fi rig. It’s listening to how it reproduces ranges of textures, tones,  transitions from midrange to bass. And the same recording on two different organs should be radically different because of reproducing the space. 

Also, play something groovy. If you move, tap toes, etc. that’s the point. If you hear a band live that just isn’t getting you to move something is holding it back. Amplification probably is a bigger source for this but lack of decent bass too. Or some call it PRAT. Things out of time are easy to tell. They just don’t swing. 

You should play the music YOU LIKE!!  

I don't care one whit how opera sounds, because I hate opera!!  Some of the best sounding new music made today is country, but I hate country music too!  I love 80's synth pop and rock, so my system better make that sound real good.

And then there's always Steely Dan!!  

That’s easy….Bad recordings. 

Late-era Autechre.

A now deceased friend who was very wealthy built a gorgeous home and began setting up a very fine system with MacIntosh pushing the power. I don't  remember all the peripherals but it certainly was big bucks all the way. He was never happy and asked me over for some advice. OMG, it was horrible!

People who live in glass houses should never seek great sound. The entire front of his living room was thick plate glass 12 feet high and probably 40 feet across. The music he enjoyed got lost chasing each other around the entire room. Much against his partners  chagrin I told him to have heavy drapes installed that he could close when he wanted to sit and listen. He did what I said and they both hated it but he invited me back after the installation. You can't have your cake and eat it! They wanted to have the view while listening. When he drew the drapes, probably about a $20K install, his system came to life and became fully satisfying to both of them and me. The moral is, before you go spending gobs of money fixing your system, spend some time and effort fixing your room. Very possibly you will find it Fugly but it sure could sound way better.

@gandmjl 

Over the many years that I spent chasing the best sound the one and only real lesson I learned was to get your listening room properly tuned to your ears and the system playing the music you enjoy.

+1

Your system and the music you play on it can be the very best money can buy and still fall very short if your room acoustics suck. Over the many years that I spent chasing the best sound the one and only real lesson I learned was to get your listening room properly tuned to your ears and the system playing the music you enjoy. Every room is different and a simple change of your listening position or speaker placement can make a huge difference. Softening the room so you eliminate reflective noise is probably the most beneficial change you could make. Most of us are not able to dedicate that much space and design engineering to our rooms yet we spend massive amounts of money on our systems. You can put a Hemi engine in a VW but that does not make it any better. Get your room right. 

Definitely vocals - trying to make Tiny Tim's voice sound better is definitely a step in the right direction

The Chariots of Fire theme by Vangelis is one I play for others. Love it !

Happy listening 

Metallica’s Hardwired... to Self-Destruct album is like a tester for any system ability, you can check almost everything including very important index of dynamic range, however this Album-tester is not for tube based amps, very few of them could handle that kind of dynamic. 

I have found over the years that a great test of a hi fi system is music that combines four things: full bodied vocals ( solo & harmonies), acoustic stringed instruments ( like acoustic guitar, banjo, mandolin, violin, stand up bass etc), amplified instruments like guitar, bass guitar , keyboards) & drums.  Not many systems can do this well at realistic volumes in a decent sized room especially when these sound components are all playing together. These very varied sounds & dynamic shadings often tend to get pushed together & loose their inner detail & nuance. 
 

A perfect example of this are the first two Jackson Browne albums which both sound very good on Qobuz if a good album copy is not available. 

A good RECORDING is the best bet. Since all recordings are "processed" in some way by the time we get them, I would seek out something by Mayorga or other direct-to-disc recordings since they are the least processed. Loving to hear Baez do Diamods and Rust is nice, but how much "stuff" was done to the recording to get that voice so crystal clear and those dynamics so balanced?

As I was told all my life when trying to decide something, CONSIDER THE SOURCE...

To each their own, but I would start with a quality recording and go from there.

Cheers!

Zamfir

Solo Piano

String Quartet

Female Voice.

Many, if not most systems have problems with sibilance. Female voice and violins commonly bring this out. Only the great systems can cruise through these without biting. Great does not mean expensive. I just heard a system built around Harbeth P3s that was wonderful. Piano due to it's complexity and sustain.

I agree/forgot Piano,

1st a great piano RECORDING (hard to get right), then how does it sound?

It's just like movies, you'll never learn anything about movies by watching the best movies ever made you'll learn a lot about movies by watching bad ones. Listen to poorly recorded music distortion that couldn't be fixed see if the speaker reproduces distortion well  (that's hard). Square waves, industrial "music" that is blown out, is a great test.

Mumblecore or solo zither. Or maybe anything you're familiar with? It doesn't matter what sort of music you play to test a rig other than you know what the hell it's supposed to sound like, and can then judge if the rig is playing it accurately. 

The Cd's I audition with are:

1. Classical - 1812 Overture - Sir George Solti - Chicago Symphony Orchestra - London Decca - 417-400-2 [Full orchestral range, plus bells and canon booms]

2.  Joan Baez Greatest hits - in particular "Diamonds and Rust")  - A & M Records - CD - 0510

3.  Sarah McLachlan - Wintersong - Arista records - 82876 - 81504 - 2

Iron maiden.  Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner, at full volume pushing to and maybe right up to over over 110db..

+1 Kota

@roxy54    You nailed it.  Massed violins.  Far too often they sound like mush, even on costly systems.  Especially on digital.  It seems the digits have trouble resolving multiple HF sounds that are all playing the same tune.  If you can hear individual instruments on your system then it's tops.

After that, solo piano.  Does it sound like a piano?  Too often, not entirely.  However, poor piano sound is often down to the recording.  Miking a piano is very difficult.  Too many close mike.  That is not what is required.

Those who said 'vocals' are incorrect.  The human voice has tones in the middle, easy part of the range.  Most systems reproduce them realistically.

@edcyn   Vocalists. Any genre. Do the male voices suffer from a buzzy midrange distortion? Or do they sound rich, clear and authentically human? Are the sibilants spitty or hashy?

steakster 

+1

Vocals are the most challenging. We hear human voices every day for a reference. Do they sound natural in your system? (Allowing for a slight touch of reverb.)

Big +1.

Vocal has to be the most challenging music to play on a stereo. Vocals in any audio system, regardless of cost, are far back away and empty void. I visited many audio shows hoping ultra expensive audio systems might be close to the original music. But nothing was really even similar to the real music. So, I made Wavetouch audio system that produces human voice sounds like the human voice.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaBy9CcGoTE

Alex/Wavetouch audio

what design in your equipment should you seek to eliminate all of your issues?

Change all to most and I would say get a system that uses a minimum of a dedicated center channel and two subwoofers ( a 3.2 setup) instead of just two channels. Even Frank Sinatra used a center channel: