carpapathian, Exactly...well, as much as perception allows which imo is the largest variable in the 'equation'. When taking into account the wide range of 'audiophile' system variables in equipment, the spaces they're installed into, and the range of the 'perceivers' listening intently....
We all hear something similar; it's the personal interpretation of what they heard that varies in degree...
emrofsemanon...and audiophilia in extremis is a ladder that seems to grow more rungs on a regular basis with no apparent limits, despite the rarity of the air or cost of an 'arrival' that's always pending. ;)
...and people think drugs are addictive....*hah*L* |
i am reminded of the words of english poet adrian mitchell, who commented, "
Most people ignore most poetry because most poetry ignores most people." most people ignore most audiophilia because most audiophilia ignores most people, many elites of various stripes place their thinking a cut-above that of the "great unwashed" rather than try to spread their love of music in a practical way, to those outside of their camp. |
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"....one thing that struck me over the " a race car with fresh, sticky tires " comment is the fact that cold 'fresh, sticky tires' on a race car can fail to stick..." Good catch, even if I say so, as that was my thought in my first post here. I did not elaborate as I thought that millercarbon would catch that detail. "As far as tires go, maybe it is not the best comparison." |
....one thing that struck me over the " a race car with fresh, sticky tires " comment is the fact that cold 'fresh, sticky tires' on a race car can fail to stick in curve six at speed just as fast as the hot worn ones you're just about to pit with....
'Textual Density' in music, Yes, can be thought of as describing a well recorded passage and/or series of same from an outstanding musician/singer or group of same, be it a solo or group performance. It can also be applied to an instrument in the hands of Yo-Yo Ma, always a delight to hear....
In the case of the reviewer....likely more to the tactical qualities of his brain matter and his noted penchant for 'prose' postures. We can perhaps assume that he may be paid by the word count and how glossy something is by such flourish pronouncements....
Just an cynical aside, mind you....carry on....;)
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Textural density to me means palpable, having body, 3 dimensionality. I get this “feel” in the lower frequencies as heft, weighty slam . In the midrange as layering , having mass. Not so obvious in upper frequencies but discernible as having mass even if the sounds float between speakers. One way of experiencing this is to compare different systems. Once you pick it you will understand it’s meaning
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Another great catch by Mr Magister! That link is a great portal into the science behind all this audio psychology.
Music is the MOST abstract of all art forms. The result, when trying to describe abstract ideas, is usually metaphor. Try writing down how it felt to get your last orgasm AND WHY and you’ll approximate the dilemma faced by any published critic. |
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I happen to have a PHD in Textual Density. My dissertation was on the Rosetta Stone. |
Herein lies the difficulty in describing how our brains process sensory stimuli
No two people interpret this exactly the same.
As a musician in an orchestra with 44 other instruments, we spend a lot of time working together to create a rich, multi-layered harmonic sensory experience. Some might call that 'textual density'. Others, simply 'music'.
String players work together and focus on playing certain notes using specific bowing techniques. When they all get it right, it is magical.
As a brass player, the goal is to always be 'centered' on the note (this is the same concept that opera singers focus on). That is when the richness of the instrument's tone comes alive.
I try to mimic that sensory experience in my system. Can I discern (hear) the instruments' under tones, harmonics, and partial harmonics? The decay of individual notes? Each section's contribution to the overall sensory landscape?
My goal is to be able to close my eyes while listening to a recording and feel like the musicians are in the room with me. |
When a speaker pressurizes the air in the room effectively it causes a density change o the air in the room while listening that is hard to describe but when you get that you will not want to listen to a light thin sound ever again.
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@frogman
It would be great if more reviewers and consumers knew more musicology so they could help connect the worlds of music appreciation and audiophilia with greater accuracy and depth. I feel like we're always just reinventing the wheel with our amateur descriptions. An audiophile-focused glossary of music terms would be fun to use. |
More than a simple wise post indeed!
Thanks... |
Good post and I agree. His attempt at a description points, once again, to the issue of harmonic truthfulness (timbre).
The use and better understanding of terms (“resourceful prose”) that are rooted in musicology to describe the perceived sonic qualities of audio gear is not only appropriate, but is something that, were it to happen more often in audiophile parlance, would reduce the level of confusion we often see in discussions like this one. I have always found it interesting and not a little ironic that there is often a disconnect between terminology used in audiospeak and well established terminology in musicology when, in fact, the actual parallels are many. After all, it is music that audio is dealing with, no?
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Herb is describing a richness of sound and detail accentuated in some pieces of music and lost or retained by certain combinations of gear/cabling/AC purity, I think. Interesting to note the musicology of his terminology, but no need to fault him for his resourceful prose, even if not textbook. I always enjoy his reviews as much for his prose as his clear lack of corporate sponsorship. We also seem to have similar tastes, so it makes finding good value gear easier.
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I don’t think this is about which voice or instrument has, in real life, more or less textural (tonal) density than another......
the point of quantifying or qualifying tonal density is to determine whether the reproduced sound does justice to the timbre of the sound being reproduced; whatever that might be.
Right to the point!.... Tonal and timbre density and his texture to the perceiving ears is the most important perceived fact to evaluate our own system and any system.,...There are others but without this one any system is more trash than audio.... The unbeknownst fact to most is that implementing controls of the working dimensions of the audio system is on par with a good electronic design choice to begin with..... |
I think we are conflating a couple of things. I don’t think this is about which voice or instrument has, in real life, more or less textural (tonal) density than another. While different voices or instrumental sounds obviously have different harmonic signatures, some richer in harmonics than others, as concerns the use of the term in audio (“more there there”), the point of quantifying or qualifying tonal density is to determine whether the reproduced sound does justice to the timbre of the sound being reproduced; whatever that might be. It is possible to have a sound that has “more there there”, as the phrase is used in audio, that is a sound that is TOO tonally saturated. Error of harmonic commission as opposed to error of omission. In my experience the opposite is the case more often than not....not enough tonal density.
Also, let’s not confuse tonal purity with lack of tonal density. I would argue that Karen Carpenter (or Bing Crosby) has no less harmonic density in her voice than Ray Charles. More nuanced with better balanced and integrated harmonics, yes. Less? I don’t think so. |
What? No mention of Bing Crosby's tonal density? He has it in spades. :-)
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Another term used in place of textural density---in particular by Sam Tellig---is "more 'there' there". The greater the textural density, the greater will the timbre of an instrument or voice be revealed.
Ray Charles', Howlin' Wolf's, and Aretha Franklin's voices have much more of it than do that of, for example, Brian Wilson, Graham Nash, and Karen Carpenter. We white's may benefit from some advantages, but when it comes to singing.....:-) . |
“Realism” has everything to do with the correct expression of the naturally occurring harmonics (overtones) in the timbre of musical instruments. Audio equipment does not discriminate. If a piece of audio gear does not correctly reproduce the natural tonal (textural) density of a cello (to use bdp’s example) it will, likewise, not express the natural tonal density of an upright bass playing in the same range as a cello. They may each have different harmonic signatures overall, but any deviation from “realism” in a particular frequency range will impact another instrument playing in that range to one degree or another. Mahgister speaks to this Re “timbre”.
Djones, I agree with you, but I will give the reviewer the benefit of the doubt. “Tonal density” is a better term to describe what I think he is trying to say. Musicians use this term when discussing “timbre”.
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It has to do with the music composition itself not the reproduction of it nor the playing,. This reviewer blabbering about textural density through headphones doesn't know what he's talking about. |
This is precisely what is called "instrument timbre", each instrument playing the same note giving his own specific "textural density"....
Instrument timbre perception is one of the most important factor to analyse to reveal the accuracy of an audio system.... |
^^^
BDP24 is correct. Textural density, when it comes to music really has to do with the individual instruments. It is that ultimate realism that we are all after ... or should be after with our audio systems. If your system is resolute enough, you can hear it in vocal cords, bowed strings, struck vibraphones ... and even notes as they are being bent by an expert harmonica player. You know it when you hear it.
Frank |
The more I consider the question, the more I like @oregonpapa's example of a cello or upright bass played with a bow. My sister played cello, and I've played with a couple of acoustic basses, so I'm pretty familiar with the sound they produce. The catgut strings on a bow, pulled across the strings of a cello or bass (or violin, for that matter; I've also performed with a couple of fiddle players) produces a very physical sound ( a "scraping"-type sound), one possessing lots of texture (think of running your hand across a deep pile carpet, or a loose-knit sweater ;-) .
Textural density relates to the amount of the "physical" sound of an instrument or voice, as in not just the sound a drum produces, but also the sound of the wood or plastic tip of a drumstick striking the drumhead. The friction between the stick and head creates a sound of it's own, a textural detail. Direct-to-disk LP's are superior in their ability to reveal such texture. Textural density is the opposite of "whispiness", which is the lack of physical "presence". A ghostly apparition, without physicality. |
I forgot to say that some source can give a better "textural density" impressions than some other source for sure...But in some room better also than in some other room....In some electrical house grid better than in some less controlled other one, then context is a factor very important not only the specific electronic design.... But reviewers must sells what is it there to sell .... They dont sell their room, nor their electrical grid....
😁
The perception of "textural density" is an acoustical phenomenon and a musical one first, not an electronical design one....
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Erik, actually, I think that Ohnwy61 got it right in the first post here. My definition (the audio part) mirrors his.
Good points, mahgister. |
it is also sometimes easy to put aside dead trees to discover living one ..... Textural density is a concept in music and in acoustic....It does not takes hours of brain power to figure it out.... What else? It is not an assembly of words by chance.... Even if a reviewer use it like an accidental coining of words, which i dont know, dont deprive it of his meaning.... You simply have chosen the wrong set of words to criticize the reviewer, thinking that these 2 words in his mouth means nothing, but they means something in any mouth.... Sorry.... 😁 These words make sense, but i dont know if the reviewer use them accurately and honestly.... i am sorry, I am new to the high end audio world. I read this sentence and could not understand any of it. Can you help?
I forget that many of your thread are only bait for discussion in a sarcastic way sometimes....I apologize for being slow brain... I am too direct person to be swift zig- zaguing Anyway your thread are interesting..... |
What I like most about this thread is that none of the well meaning and generous definitions posted so far can be proven to be anything like the others.
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You are right i think about the musical origin....
In acoustic concept speaking about "Timbre", it is the difference between pure tone/noise and the spectral envelope and the time envelope in an instrument playing a note and the particular way this instrument body vibrations will give the note in an acoustical context like a room, but it is my own interpretation only....
The fact that a reviewer use this concept meaningfully or not,for other motives, dont deprive it of his deep possible meanings...
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“Textural density” in audio is the (partly successful) appropriation of a term in music which refers to the way that instruments/voices and their respective musical lines in a musical composition are used. Each musical line is a “layer” and the “density” of the composition refers to the overall character of the sound as determined by the number of layers employed in the composition. One or few layers results in a “thin” musical texture. Many layers, a “thick texture”.
I think one can then extrapolate and in audio, if one thinks of the naturally occurring harmonics in musical sounds as “layers” themselves, a reproduced musical sound which expresses an accurate (natural) number and combination of harmonics can be said to be “texturally dense”. One that is lacking in full harmonic expression can be said to be “thin” or “threadbare”.
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+1 to cheeg!
We've all used adjectives like "threadbare", "thin", or the old standby, "tinny" to describe sound reproduction that reduces the "richness", "color" or "warmth" of the music. This is just another positive adjectival phrase in the same vein. All this for those of us with BA degrees not EEs. |
John Atkinson's writing may be clearer, but his conclusions are inscrutable.
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@erik_squires
Anything in music that doesn’t sound like an AM radio. And then like anything else there are different degrees.
Hope that helps! |
It’s perhaps described as a combination of textural density tone and weight IMHO. A note has a beginning middle and end and it is the ability to fulfill these |
If you are a hi-fi magazine writer, you are largely describing sound.
This is certainly not easy and you need real talent, nay imagination, to invent hundreds of expressions to do that. Otherwise every month's copy would be much the same.
It appears that the creators of the most flowery, ambiguous and vaccuous expressions are the most successful hi-fi writers.
My advice, Erik: read John Atkinson, not Herb Reichert, as I have done for more than 40 years. |
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean —neither more nor less.""The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
- Through the Looking Glass, and What Alice Found There (apologies to Lewis Carroll) |
"...never went through what you did..." A course in German it was not. |
Herb is the best!! Love that guy. |
@oldhvymec It's not derivative of German though I've heard it used as a term for whale penis as well if you'd like. It came from the common usage as was stated by @anotherbob and for the very same reason. Luckily I grew out of it, served in the Army though never went through what you did, fortunately. I own a small paint contracting company and enjoy the same pursuit as presumably everybody else does on this forum. Wish I'd chosen another username, didn't plan on sticking around but oh well... |
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I am still wondering about accuracy of the statement about "da dork" in German. For one, it would be "da Dork". If the statement were accurate somehow, assuming one of the localized dialects.
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oldhvymec posted: “dadork, do you know what da dork means in German? The Dick
Choose your words wisely. It’s a VERY derogatory term. I mean if you want to learn, that is.. You are "The Dick" after all, by your own admission..”
Well hvy one, in case you haven’t noticed, this site’s language is English, and the English definition of dork is as follows:
“Slang. a silly, out-of-touch person who tends to look odd or behave ridiculously around others; a social misfit: If you make me wear that, I’ll look like a total dork!”
Chose the comparative language wisely, I mean if you want to learn, that is. You are “The Dick” after all, by your own inability to recognize the language being written, and going out on a linguistic limb to insult someone who was making a valid point. dadork is right, when someone asks a question there’s no need to be rude, condescending or snobbish, as I’ve seen done over and over on here, typically by the same people. I wouldn’t call them “dicks,” they’re more like something that’s anatomically close, but having to do with solid waste.
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Now, when we figured out what textural density is, we have to connect it to tires. Any takers? |
Listen to a cello or a bowed bass live. THAT is
textural density.
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Music might have textural density but not speakers
Bingo! that was my point about "timbre" which is an acoustical phenomenon not and electronic one mainly.... But electronic design can help for sure.... |
Music might have textural density but not speakers. Sounds like detail. A good system overall probably delivers it better.
The speakers ALWAYS get all the credit. 😤 |
"Eg, that one could be filed under spleen venting, with a side order of sales pitch." Has anyone actually ordered a sales pitch? Ever? |
Sometimes "Words" are the pallet of wisdom and understanding.
Other times they are just that, "WORDS". You are wise.... that is my point precisely.... But the fact that some words are used in a review dont means that these words dont make sense.... They did.... The review perhaps dont make sense, i dont know.... The OP wanted an understanding of these words.... I give what i think what "texture density" could mean acoustically.... But perhaps his motives were other than my simple supposition in creating the thread....i am myself too simple mind to figure it out.... Anyway any audio thread can be interesting.... |
Sometimes "Words" are the pallet of wisdom and understanding.
Other times they are just that, "WORDS".
Call me simple, I don't want it to be, that hard to understand..
Regards |
i will summarize my post in 4 words:
Vibraphone decays never lied.....
Then bash the review.... Not the 2 words that perfectly make sense.... 😁 |
