What exactly is PRaT???

@dogearedaudio 

Did you bring up Klemperer because of the phenomenal PRAT he brought to the Beethoven symphonies? My mother introduced me to the vinyl boxed set of Klemperer's Beethoven symphonies. That absolutely mind blowing explosion in the Ode To Joy 4th movement where all the instruments fly into the vortex simultaneously is the most PRAT-ey thing I have ever heard. Pretty sure that moment when first heard ushered me into puberty all those years ago.

@dogearedaudio 

Did you bring up Klemperer because of the phenomenal PRAT he brought to the Beethoven symphonies? My mother introduced me to the vinyl boxed set of Klemperer's Beethoven symphonies. That absolutely mind blowing explosion in the Ode To Joy 4th movement where all the instruments fly into the vortex simultaneously is the most PRAT-ey thing I have ever heard. Pretty sure that moment when first heard ushered me into puberty all those years ago.

@bolong

There’s a long-standing discussion in the classical world concerning famous conductors who "slowed down" as they aged, some rather drastically, and whether this was related to cardiovascular health. Otto Klemperer was a notable example. In his younger years he adopted brisk tempos and a rather fierce attack, and but in old age his recordings took on a stately (some would say sluggish) and monolithic character.  

PRaT, propulsion and speed overlap so much as to render a venn diagram a fuzzy circle. Can't have one without the other two (to some degree) if you want realism. It's part of the completion of the illusion of realism. 

Until my present system, I never quite got there. I've said before that it must be partially due to serendipity as it all came together so quickly and so convincingly. People I've had over all had the same reaction: "this is one fast system". One even said it twice in the space of a minute with a shocked look on his face. 

It wasn't until my present system that I caught myself swinging my foot or leg for long periods of time and not getting fatigued by it. The body motions and the tempo of the music were as one, varying as the timing changed. I was bemused by it and yet enjoyed it to no end. Maybe it's why I just stopped looking for anything else, and find myself, at times, bemused by some of the responses on these threads. 

All the best,
Nonoise

@soix

Paul McGowan: "What is PRaT and do the British do it Better?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YGgMpX3XII

FWIW, he says, regarding pace, rhythm and timing, "I think it’s one of those things that, if you haven’t ever experienced them, it’s hard to describe". He asserts that, although PRaT is not a top priority for him, he's found it can and does vary, depending upon the gear used.

This is my experience as well, although I’m in no way suggesting I’m in a remotely similar category when it comes to experience/knowledge as P. M.

To me, it’s best described as a "propulsive quality" that cannot be defined solely in terms of BPM. Scientifically, this sounds ridiculous but for some of us, at least, it’s palpable. Perhaps there’s an as-yet-unexplored physiological aspect to this that comes into play.

Perhaps it should be "Pulse, Rhythm and Timing." I have often wondered whether musical timing is governed however subtly by the heart rate of the musician which must vary according to the demands the music is making on the performer and the demands the performer is making on the music. The heart can be likened to a metronome residing in the chest, and its interaction with music making could be creating a very subtle poly-rhythm in the musical performance that sometimes urges the musician into altered and sublime states that are both familiar and novel at the same time and which strike the listeners the same way.

Effect of Music On the Cardiovacular System

Speakers from Joseph Audio, Magico, Audio Physic, Vandersteen, Totem, Marten, Thiel, get imaging and soundstage.  Simple in your face speakers like JBL or Klipsch speakers, not so much.  They are in your face and can’t capture the beauty and Grace of better recordings.  They do what they do.  They’re in your face hit you with slam speakers and good on them for what they do.  But they’re just rock n roll speakers for head bangers cause that’s what they do and they’re limited and can’t do the finer points of music.  They just can’t.  They ain’t built that way, and that’s ok for people who want that “sound.” 

I’m shocked, shocked I tell you, that we’re arguing over PRaT. 

Look if you can’t grok what PRaT is then maybe consider your room and how it’s messing up what you think is the sound of your amazing system. 

@dogearedaudio Yeah, I agree timing, pace, and rhythm, whatever that is is important and significant, but I just don’t get or sense it. When you can “see” the three dimensional images of musicians performing in a 3D space I get that. That they’re somehow behind the beat, no, I don’t get that cause the music was recorded the way it was recorded. I just don’t get what a “slow” system sounds like. But I know Linn can’t make speakers I like because they sound like shite and nasally and I can hear it 10 yards out the door. They might do PRaT but they don’t do tone or soudstaging in any realm IMHO. ,

Oh, I think we're probably more on the same page than not.  I didn't say I don't *understand* 3D imaging or soundstage.  I asked for definitions.  Those definitions would have to include the word "illusion," which is what they are, illusions.  But they are definitely real phenomena.  By the same token, I believe that certain equipment affects our perception of pace, timing and rhythm in a way that is also an illusion, but is also a genuine phenomenon.

A please define for me what "imaging" and "3D soundstage" mean.  In relation to what?  And why are they important?

@dogearedaudio  You and I are clearly on different planets when it comes to sound.  If you don’t understand what imaging and 3D soundstage are then you have compromised hearing and/or a compromised system not capable of producing it.  I’m guessing you have your Klipsch or Bose speakers stapled to the wall to not understand imaging or soundstage.  But, I don’t get PRaT so that’s maybe my hearing deficiency.  To each his own I guess, and that’s what makes the audio world go ’round.  

The book also mentioned Rhythm and pace are more important in rock , jazz, blues , pop , and other form of music than in classical.

Robert Harley’s book Complete Guide to High end audio page 56 Prat means Pace Rhythm and Timing.according to Harley How do you listen to pace and rhythm? Forget about it. And if you find yourself wanting to dance the component probably has it.

Dancing is very important to people who play music with a beat. I think that people who don't dance, or who never did dance, don't really understand the beat... I know musicians who don't and never did dance, and they have difficulty communicating.

@audition__audio And subjectivity is just stupid when it comes to music, right?

@tunehead Provides the only realistic answer. Dirk and Lerxst approved.

I do not see his post.

PRaT is just another stupid subjective term. 

A please define for me what "imaging" and "3D soundstage" mean.  In relation to what?  And why are they important?

@soix

Yes, I've played instruments, though not very well.  But I've been an actor, singer, stage director and audiobook narrator for over 40 years.  I certainly know what pace, rhythm and timing mean.  They're essential to the work I do every day!  I utterly fail to see what it is you want defined.  Surely you've played with musicians who can't keep time, or who don't "swing," or who don't convey any nuance or subtlety in their performances.  There are audio systems that fail in this regard as well.  Whether you've heard them or not I couldn't say.  You seem to be highly resistive to the idea that such a thing could exist.   I have no idea why.  Woolly, sloppy bass in a speaker or amp is simply not going to convey the basic snap of the rhythm properly.  If the midrange is bleached out I'm going to miss some of the subtle timings a singer might inject into a performance.   I can't understand why this is hard to grasp.

Seriously? What could be more essential to the performing arts than pace, rhythm and timing? And what could be more easily comprehensible? Pace is the speed, rhythm is the repetitive beat, timing is the emphasis.

@dogearedaudio  Why is it that people here are having such a hard time defining it?   We can define tonality.  We can define imaging and 3D soundstage.  We can define a speaker’s disappearing act.  Seriously?  I’m a drummer and if I’m locked in with my bass player the band is on, so pretty sure I get timing, rhythm, and pace.  What you’re talking about that should be so easy to hear isn’t so in my book.  Do you even play an instrument?   

@mashif 

Nicely put. ;-)

Objectivity is generally in short supply around audio and music. It's all in our heads. But it doesn't seem hard to imagine that some speaker and amp combinations differ in how quickly the drivers respond to transients and how quickly a large diaphragm can reverse direction. It might be measurable but it's certainly audible. I think it's just a term someone coined to describe systems that do it well. 

Seriously? What could be more essential to the performing arts than pace, rhythm and timing? And what could be more easily comprehensible? Pace is the speed, rhythm is the repetitive beat, timing is the emphasis. Music, stand-up comedy, the stage, film, writing--success in these crafts is largely defined by these three simple but discrete elements. I happen to think that it’s a rather brilliant bit of linguistic compression that captures in one acronym the success or failure of an audio system to convey the essentials of what makes listening to recorded music enjoyable.

So far no one has been able to give a reasonable objective definition of it that folks agree upon and makes sense to the folks trying to understand which says to me that no one really knows what it is.

@jastralfu Bingo!!!  That’s exactly what I’m sayin’.  

PRAT to me is a little something. Doesn’t take much in the upper mid bass. Punch 🤛 . 

I keep reading words like transient response, time aligned drivers, authenticity, musicality to describe PRaT. Why not just use those words rather than some esoteric acronym? It also seems to be as much a property of the music itself as the system on which it is being played and the listeners connection to the music. It seems to me that any system can be regarded as having these elements if it’s engaging and musical to the person who put it together. So far no one has been able to give a reasonable objective definition of it that folks agree upon and makes sense to the folks trying to understand which says to me that no one really knows what it is.

@soix

No. I do not. A system either plays music the way I perceive it or it does not.

Well, that’s pretty definitive! Considering the fact that you are a drummer and (I presume) very familiar with how rhythms "feel" in your body, I don’t feel qualified to challenge you on this.

I have noticed over the years that reviews by Brits seem to often mention PRaT. It would be interesting to ask Tarun (A British Audiophile) what it means to him.

One question: do you experience some systems as more rhythmically engaging  than others?

Some are definitely more engaging for me than others are; however I never attributed it to having to do with "rhythmically".

One question: do you experience some systems as more rhythmically engaging than others?

@stuartk No. I do not. A system either plays music the way I perceive it or it does not. If a system truncates highs, sounds bleached or lacking in tone, or sounds two dimensional I get that. Timing? Pace? No. These things are not in my audiophile vocabulary. A system either plays music in a believable way or it does not. I’ve never heard a system that sounds “slow” or lacks ”pace” or whatever the hell that is. I just don’t get it.  I will say this though, I was at an audio show and I knew 10 yards out from a Linn room that it was Linn speakers because it sounded bleached and nasally.  If that’s pace and rhythm you can have it. 

@soix 

As a drummer, you know you can push the beat or play more relaxed and still be "on time". It's a feel thing. I notice it most on plucked strings. Acoustic guitar, mandolin, pizz strings. 

I think it's mostly about transient response on the high end and maybe damping on the low end to respond accurately to the speed of the waveform. 

The first time I ever heard of it was right here on A'gon, and I didn't get it either.

I mean, it seems to me that "pace, rhythm and tempo" is what the band either did or didn't do during the recording session, and if they did do it, the rest was up to the guys and/or gals doing the recording and mastering.  I would have never thought that this was the function of the consumer's playback gear.

However, one of the upgrades I made that most grabbed my attention was in '99 when I replaced a B&K digital HT preamp with a secondhand Carp SLP 90.  My initial reaction was, "So this is what "musical" means."  But I was never able to put what I heard into words that I could use to describe it.

I know a bit of what PRaT is. I’ve also experienced it, A writer once wrote "PRaT can take decades to understand". He might be right, PRaT indeed is a hard thing to understand because it is not just 1 thing.

From what I’ve experienced, PRaT - at least some part of it allows the music to flow in perfect synchrony. It is indeed a rare trait.

This sort of reminds me of the discussion which turned into an argument about the meaning of "musical."

What would a discussion of PRAT be without bringing in marijuana?

Why Weed and Music Go So Well Together

"Dr. Jörg Fachner: [Marijuana] works like a psycho-acoustic enhancer. That means you are more able to absorb, to focus on something, and to have a bit of a broader spectrum. It doesn’t change the music; it doesn’t change the ear functioning. Obviously it changes the way we perceive ear space in music.

It also changes time perception, and if you listen to music, it is a time process, so if you have a different time perception of course you will listen differently to music.

Some have been mentioned, but are there some favorite tracks amongst the PRaT-ists (just having fun, relax), that are particularly good at demonstrating PRaT?

I also think PRaT means "PACE, RHYTHM and TIMING". But I may be wrong.

Most audiophiles seem to live in the frequency domain.  Mid-range this, bass that, treble something else.  But music exists in the time domain, as a waveform.  Our ears have evolved (as our primary danger sensors) to be incredibly sensitive to the arrival time of sound waves. Our pinnae are shaped to give us a 3D aural image giving the height and orientation of the source sound, even if it behind our heads.

There is a Chesky recoding of a repeated chirrup which on a good 2-channel system appears to rise vertically from one speaker before moving in an arc across the ceiling and descending to the other speaker.

I cannot think of much in nature that works in the frequency domain, apart from resonances and ears.  The tuned hairs in our snail-shaped cochlea fire nerves when they resonate.  The sequence in which they fire feeds our neural network which processes in the time domain.

Our systems on the other hand typically take the waveform and decompose it into frequency bands before feeding each band to a dynamic driver - tweeter, mid-range, bass etc..  We then desperately try to time-align these drivers to get back the original waveform, but physics gets in the way.  Unless the drivers act as a point source (not a line source) reflections from walls, floors and ceiling will not be time aligned at the listening position.

Time domain waveforms can be converted to frequency domain using Fourier transforms, and vice versa.  Start with a square wave, which contains all higher harmonics of the base frequency, and produce the frequency spectrum using a Fourier transform.  Take that spectrum and Fourier transform it, hoping to get the original square wave back.  Well, you get a square wave but it has a pronounced leading spike, mathematically and practically.

Linn was all about trying to avoid spurious resonances in the table / arm / cartridge source, with the subjective outcome that listeners were more likely to tap in time with the music.

The most coherent loudspeaker was the Quad electrostatic ESL-63, designed in 1963 to emulate a point source of sound about a foot behind the flat panel.  It took a further 18 years of development before the ESL-63 was offered to the market. The final test of each production speaker was to compare it to a reference speaker with a microphone exactly equidistant.  A square wave was played to the reference speaker and the same wave with opposite polarity went to the speaker under test.  If the microphone gave no output, the speaker passed.  These speakers and their descendants have specifications that read like amplifier specifications.  Peter Walker said of them "if you don't like what comes out, pay more attention to what goes in".

Try some.  If you don't get PRaT, you probably never will!

@soix

One question: do you experience some systems as more rhythmically engaging  than others?

I've always thought this was a term that only made sense to the person who coined it.

The only explanation I can personally come up with is the timing part which I would attribute to a lack of phase coherence among drivers in a single cabinet.  

As to rhythm and pace just more terms to ascribe to a system that is likable and a joy to listen to.

Regards,

barts 

WhatHiFi is, IMO, one of the more reliable review sites and they devote a fair portion of every review talking about the equipment’s ability convey joy and rhythm, and generally a good musical experience. Nothing wrong with that.

@dogearedaudio Well, yeah nothing wrong with that but it doesn’t tell me squat about whether I wanna listen to a piece of gear or not. What HiFi sucks IMHO, and they don’t ever compare whatever equipment is under review to anything else. Why? Because they don’t wanna be held accountable like all the Brit mags. Useless. Utterly useless reviews.

If Etta makes you want to move ,  isn't that Prat and if it's just meh isn't that lack of PRat?

I suspect you're already PRaT maxed out.  As a musician timing means something different than what it means to a typical listener.  The beat is on the recording and unless you cassette player or vinyl speeds up and slows down the beat is the same no matter the system. From my perception of what is being described is more a leading edge dynamic artifact.  When the stick hits the drum head it's more than a single event.  Where you hit it, how much force, which drum and how the drum is tuned has  a different level of priority to some.  The same goes for stringed and wind instruments.  The ability for your stereo to reproduce (enhance) aspects of the music affects the music's enjoyment factor.  The same song can sound dull and lifeless or jaw dropping spectacular depending on both the system and your state of mind.  There are times (usually late at night)  where my stereo just sounds better than it did previously.  Does that mean someone somewhere turned up the PRat or is that just an lack vocabulary to actually describe the many aspects that make up our hobby?

@soix

Well, your own system includes select cables, amp upgrades, and a lot of other refinements, so clearly you’ve spent some time developing a system that plays music the way you want to hear it. I assume you didn’t just close your eyes and grab whatever came to hand. If "PRAT" doesn’t mean anything to you, it doesn’t. For a lot of audiophiles, especially people getting started in the hobby, it can be a helpful measure of where your money is best spent. WhatHiFi is, IMO, one of the more reliable review sites and they devote a fair portion of every review talking about the equipment’s ability convey joy and rhythm, and generally a good musical experience. Nothing wrong with that.

It's just a euphemism for something that simply sounds more authentic. Being more authentic gets you more involved with the sound and gets you to toe tapping.

I think the mystery behind it that we're looking at it with a modern perspective that can't understand why something so mid range centric as the Naim/Linn sound back in good old days can be called authentic when modern systems can beat them at that game. 

Remember that the midrange accounts for about  80% and once they got that down convincingly, PRaT became a thing.

Practically all modern systems have the ability to sound pretty authentic but we still find PRaT to be elusive and that all boils down to the quality of the recording: how well it was done. Great sound in, great sound out.

All the best,
Nonoise

@danager Great song. How does that tell me absolutely anything about PRaT??? My system sounds great playing that song so what EXACTLY makes a better PRaT system sound better doing that? I mean, as a drummer you’re either on the beat or you’re not. And I’ve not heard a system that’s “behind” the beat. You gotta come at me with more than a single song. I’m willing or learn, but this ain’t it.

Etta James: Miss Pitiful

I find it almost impossible to not become involved move and get excited by this song.  How this differs from PRAT I guess is how the stereo displays it???

How does PRAT differ from "Man that sounds good"?

Well, if this thread has taught me anything it’s that this thing called PRaT is pretty indescribable in words and is just a “feel” thing I just apparently don’t — and probably never will — get or care about.  I appreciate all your attempts to educate me, but I still just don’t get it.  Music either sounds real to me or it doesn’t.  Period.  I just can’t relate that to timing, “pace” whatever the hell that is or “rhythm” whatever the hell that is.  I think most famously Art Dudley used to focus on timing and beats, and I never got anything he was talking about and never got much from any of his reviews.  Kind of like Herb Reichert or Sam Tellig — I like reading their prose but never, ever, get anything out of whether I wanna buy a component because they’re just too opaque.  They write just to write for their own sake.  It’s entertaining to read but ultimately not very useful IMHO.  I could be wrong as usual, but what say you?  I think this could be an interesting topic for further discussion. 

@tunehead Provides the only realistic answer. Dirk and Lerxst approved.