What exactly is PRaT???

@tunehead Provides the only realistic answer. Dirk and Lerxst approved.

I do not see his post.

@audition__audio And subjectivity is just stupid when it comes to music, right?

Dancing is very important to people who play music with a beat. I think that people who don't dance, or who never did dance, don't really understand the beat... I know musicians who don't and never did dance, and they have difficulty communicating.

Robert Harley’s book Complete Guide to High end audio page 56 Prat means Pace Rhythm and Timing.according to Harley How do you listen to pace and rhythm? Forget about it. And if you find yourself wanting to dance the component probably has it.

The book also mentioned Rhythm and pace are more important in rock , jazz, blues , pop , and other form of music than in classical.

A please define for me what "imaging" and "3D soundstage" mean.  In relation to what?  And why are they important?

@dogearedaudio  You and I are clearly on different planets when it comes to sound.  If you don’t understand what imaging and 3D soundstage are then you have compromised hearing and/or a compromised system not capable of producing it.  I’m guessing you have your Klipsch or Bose speakers stapled to the wall to not understand imaging or soundstage.  But, I don’t get PRaT so that’s maybe my hearing deficiency.  To each his own I guess, and that’s what makes the audio world go ’round.  

Oh, I think we're probably more on the same page than not.  I didn't say I don't *understand* 3D imaging or soundstage.  I asked for definitions.  Those definitions would have to include the word "illusion," which is what they are, illusions.  But they are definitely real phenomena.  By the same token, I believe that certain equipment affects our perception of pace, timing and rhythm in a way that is also an illusion, but is also a genuine phenomenon.

@dogearedaudio Yeah, I agree timing, pace, and rhythm, whatever that is is important and significant, but I just don’t get or sense it. When you can “see” the three dimensional images of musicians performing in a 3D space I get that. That they’re somehow behind the beat, no, I don’t get that cause the music was recorded the way it was recorded. I just don’t get what a “slow” system sounds like. But I know Linn can’t make speakers I like because they sound like shite and nasally and I can hear it 10 yards out the door. They might do PRaT but they don’t do tone or soudstaging in any realm IMHO. ,

I’m shocked, shocked I tell you, that we’re arguing over PRaT. 

Look if you can’t grok what PRaT is then maybe consider your room and how it’s messing up what you think is the sound of your amazing system. 

Speakers from Joseph Audio, Magico, Audio Physic, Vandersteen, Totem, Marten, Thiel, get imaging and soundstage.  Simple in your face speakers like JBL or Klipsch speakers, not so much.  They are in your face and can’t capture the beauty and Grace of better recordings.  They do what they do.  They’re in your face hit you with slam speakers and good on them for what they do.  But they’re just rock n roll speakers for head bangers cause that’s what they do and they’re limited and can’t do the finer points of music.  They just can’t.  They ain’t built that way, and that’s ok for people who want that “sound.” 

Perhaps it should be "Pulse, Rhythm and Timing." I have often wondered whether musical timing is governed however subtly by the heart rate of the musician which must vary according to the demands the music is making on the performer and the demands the performer is making on the music. The heart can be likened to a metronome residing in the chest, and its interaction with music making could be creating a very subtle poly-rhythm in the musical performance that sometimes urges the musician into altered and sublime states that are both familiar and novel at the same time and which strike the listeners the same way.

Effect of Music On the Cardiovacular System

@soix

Paul McGowan: "What is PRaT and do the British do it Better?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YGgMpX3XII

FWIW, he says, regarding pace, rhythm and timing, "I think it’s one of those things that, if you haven’t ever experienced them, it’s hard to describe". He asserts that, although PRaT is not a top priority for him, he's found it can and does vary, depending upon the gear used.

This is my experience as well, although I’m in no way suggesting I’m in a remotely similar category when it comes to experience/knowledge as P. M.

To me, it’s best described as a "propulsive quality" that cannot be defined solely in terms of BPM. Scientifically, this sounds ridiculous but for some of us, at least, it’s palpable. Perhaps there’s an as-yet-unexplored physiological aspect to this that comes into play.

PRaT, propulsion and speed overlap so much as to render a venn diagram a fuzzy circle. Can't have one without the other two (to some degree) if you want realism. It's part of the completion of the illusion of realism. 

Until my present system, I never quite got there. I've said before that it must be partially due to serendipity as it all came together so quickly and so convincingly. People I've had over all had the same reaction: "this is one fast system". One even said it twice in the space of a minute with a shocked look on his face. 

It wasn't until my present system that I caught myself swinging my foot or leg for long periods of time and not getting fatigued by it. The body motions and the tempo of the music were as one, varying as the timing changed. I was bemused by it and yet enjoyed it to no end. Maybe it's why I just stopped looking for anything else, and find myself, at times, bemused by some of the responses on these threads. 

All the best,
Nonoise

@bolong

There’s a long-standing discussion in the classical world concerning famous conductors who "slowed down" as they aged, some rather drastically, and whether this was related to cardiovascular health. Otto Klemperer was a notable example. In his younger years he adopted brisk tempos and a rather fierce attack, and but in old age his recordings took on a stately (some would say sluggish) and monolithic character.  

@dogearedaudio 

Did you bring up Klemperer because of the phenomenal PRAT he brought to the Beethoven symphonies? My mother introduced me to the vinyl boxed set of Klemperer's Beethoven symphonies. That absolutely mind blowing explosion in the Ode To Joy 4th movement where all the instruments fly into the vortex simultaneously is the most PRAT-ey thing I have ever heard. Pretty sure that moment when first heard ushered me into puberty all those years ago.

@dogearedaudio 

Did you bring up Klemperer because of the phenomenal PRAT he brought to the Beethoven symphonies? My mother introduced me to the vinyl boxed set of Klemperer's Beethoven symphonies. That absolutely mind blowing explosion in the Ode To Joy 4th movement where all the instruments fly into the vortex simultaneously is the most PRAT-ey thing I have ever heard. Pretty sure that moment when first heard ushered me into puberty all those years ago.

Pace is the speed, rhythm is the repetitive beat, timing is the emphasis. Music, stand-up comedy, the stage, film, writing--success in these crafts is largely defined by these three simple but discrete elements.

@dogearedaudio +1. Alec Guinness, Anthony Hopkins IMHO made you want to listen to them and convincing because of the way they used Prat to express their lines.

How do you listen to pace and rhythm? Forget about it.

@jayctoy You don’t listen to it like detail imaging etc. You feel it.

Didn't someone say music is comprised of 2 things, rhythm and melody?

Some get it,

Some don't,

All the best,
Nonoise

"this is one fast system".

@nonoise  care to share what it is?

A please define for me what "imaging" and "3D soundstage" mean.  In relation to what?  And why are they important?

@dogearedaudio  Really?  Seriously???  Why are you even here if you don’t get these simple concepts?  

@cdc , Sure, I've mentioned it before so it's not like it's some secret. 

My integrated is the Technics SU-G700M2 with the matching  SL-G700 SACD player. My speakers are the Revival Audio Atalante 3 monitors w/matching stands. My cabling consists of Darwin Audio speaker cables and interconnects and the power cords are a mix of TWL and Zu Audio with a Audioquest Niagara 1200 power and conditioner/surge protector. I also use IsoAcoustic Oreas under the integrated and SACD player and I have an old Marantz ST6000 tuner that is now quite satisfying to listen to thanks to the aforementioned. 

As usual, YMMV but for me, I'm quite content until I win the lottery and dig deeper for the bigger Atalante 5 speakers to use in a bigger, dedicated place. Hope that helps to point the way or at least give an idea of what can work.

All the best,
Nonoise

PRaT...a newish ’buzz’ acronym to kick about ’n argue about.... ;)

I'm annoyed....deal...:(

....the Kimmel version has some serious bass... 

...theme for the next 4+ years. Yes

@soix 

"Really?  Seriously???  Why are you even here if you don’t get these simple concepts?"

You already asked me that and I answered you.

@nonoise Yes that helps. Even though can’t hear them I will research. They must have a really good x-over. BTW, I have that same tuner circa 2001. Bought before Marantz did their major downgrade.

The tube amps that sit next to the Audion based system always sound most Prat-ey after a few hours of warm-up in the early evening before a midnightish listening session. Time of day is a factor or rather the state of the "grid" which tends to be more Prat sounding after midnight. Also, the tube amps (pre and power) transformers have warmed up enough to be "saturated." State of the grid and transformer saturation have a big bearing on PRAT in this household and moreso with the tube amps than the GanFet amps.

"Didn't someone say music is comprised of 2 things, rhythm and melody?"

Yes, that was Ivor Tiefenbrun, the founder of Linn, discussing the philosophic origins of his LP12 turntable in an interview many years ago. The term PRaT, I believe, originate with some people at Naim, Linn's partners in crime at the time.

@mkorsunsky

Why "partners in crime" ?

What is "criminal" about PRaT and how can any definition of music exclude harmony?

Pitch, Rhythm and Time

Brits and Aussies would say that anyone who doesn't get PRaT must be a prat!

@asvjerry  , were you in the flood zone?

“Brits and Aussies would say that anyone who doesn't get PRaT must be a prat!”

:)

@stuartk 

Ever heard of irony or phrasemes (fixed expressions)?​ ​​​

Nothing criminal, of course. However, I do remember, some 40 years ago, at Harvey's (long-defunct mid- to high-end stereo shop in NYC) I, a customer, was trying to impress upon a salesman the importance of source-first approach to a stereo system. He cut me off: "I don't want to hear this BS". That was the time when both Linn and Naim tried to spread their Gospel, and other Hi-Fi manufacturers, their competitors, often mocked them (many still do).

BTW, I have been a committed Linn/Naim man ever since.

@soix To understand PRat, you have to understand that the ear/brain system has tipping points. If the system is too distorted, if its too slow, stuff like that, the music processing (which normally occurs in the limbic portion of the brain) is transferred to the cerebral cortex.

So the system has to be fast enough, smooth enough, detailed enough such that the music is processed in the limbic system. That way you get a more emotional reaction- more toe tapping and so on.

So a variety of things are going on, which is why there's no consensus above.

the founder of Linn discussing the philosophic origins of his LP12 turntable

Was it the Thorens TD-150 that Linn knocked off? 😂😂

@atmasphere  Hey Ralph thanks so much for at least trying to explain what the hell I’m missing.  I get that a system needs to be fast enough to reproduce music effectively, but I just don’t get it.  It’s not a “thing” for me I guess.  Tone.  Imaging.  Soundstage. Yeah, I get all that.  But pace, rhythm, and timing?  No.  I’ll hear plodding bass if it’s overdone and slow, but that’s just not what I hear with most systems.  This “toe tapping” thing is just totally lost on me, and I guess I’m just missing it or don’t hear that way.  Linn and Naim can do their “thing” but I’ll never, ever own Linn speakers because they sound like nasally ass to me.  But that’s just me.  

@soix If its fast, it must not be bright. If its detailed, again that should not be in tandem with brightness. IOW you're making progress when its both smooth and detailed at the same time.

The goal of the system is the music, such that you don't concern yourself about the sound of the system.

@mkorsunsky

Ever heard of irony or phrasemes (fixed expressions)?​ ​​​

Yes. But when utilized without providing a context, they don’t communicate much.

While I appreciate the additional information, it’s still not clear to me how those two companies relate to a discussion of PRaT.

OP,

Just because you don’t get it now, does not mean you will not over time. It took me decades. Then suddenly the lightbulb popped on.

I was in Dallas about twenty years ago. I went to this dealer / home… hobby gone wild. The entire house was completely crammed with high end gear. In the downstairs listening room he had a set of Sound Lab Millennium-1 Electrostatic Loudspeakers. They were powered by a Viva tube amp… 4wpc (?). He said, I know this is ridiculous… but listen to this. It was all midrange and some flabby bass. It brought tears to my eyes… immediately, I have never heard anything so beautiful, emotionally evocative in my life. I was completely shaken and emotionally drained when I left. I really didn’t know what to make of it.

I couldn’t consider buying into that system… nor was he trying necessarily to sell that sound… he was overwhelmed, as was I by the emotional connection. There was no detail… no treble… the bass was absurd. I tucked the experience into my memory.

It wasn’t for another ten years when I had this epiphany that my main system had become sterile and lifeless (a true “Reference” system) that it all came together. Different experiences with certain systems that had varying degrees of PRaT… I got it! One of those lightning bolt experiences. After that, I could detect it nearly instantly and its degree. For me it was the most difficult parameter to “get”, now one of the absolutely most important.

Keep at it. Starting this thread shows your curiosity. There is a long Stereophile article in the 90’s, lots of technical descriptions… did not do a bit of good for me. But trying to sense what that thing is that is making you want to tap your foot is the thing you want to pursue. Not by narrowly focusing, but by the gestalt of the sound.

Good luck.

Of course, the actual music does not really slow down, nor change in pitch, nor timing (unless stylus drag actually slows a turntable down!)..

But our perception of when the beat starts is affected by the arrival pattern in time of the first transients of a note.  If the leading edge is sharp, not smeared in time, your brain will snap into recognising the start of something special.  I am suggesting microseconds here!  Get this right, and you'll likely find your foot tapping ... 

... what smears out transients in time is poor driver alignment, cancellation between drivers around cross-over points, and interfering reflections from room surfaces.  These are all reduced if your speakers behave like point sources.

The type of music you're listening to matters in term of whether PRaT is relevant. I've listened to turntables that sound soft and somewhat indistinct rhythmically (typically high mass turntables), but their reproduction of the weight of orchestral music was stunningly good. For that music, I think pace and rhythm didn't matter much. On the other hand, jazz typically seems to benefit from equipment with some ability to reproduce pace and timing.

@yoyoyaya The Naim version of PRaT is easy to understand because it is focused on emphasizing the leading edge of notes while being harmonically lean. I've since found that the next level to PRaT involves music reproduction that has pace but is also harmonically full. Pass amplifiers fit that bill. I think @ghdprentice also mentioned that Audio Research is even better than Pass amplifiers at conveying both pace and tonal richness.

My short definition for PRaT: You can clearly hear how different voices and instruments are interacting together in music. This is particularly evident in jazz music as a vast generality.

FWIW, electrostatic speakers have PRaT in spades because of extremely lightweight of their moving elements. 

@immatthewj ....20' above it, 50 yards from the mudfield....slept through the night mostly, waking to heavy rain and the winds.  Nil damage.

We're on the 'wrong side of the tracks' from the Biltmore entry, west of the McDowell bridge.  Everything betwixt was a sheet of clay-colored mud water...a leaning high-tension power tower (since replaced), the entry mentioned shattered...

Power back in 2.5 weeks, water back a week later....it's nice not to have to flush with a 5 g. bucket anymore....(...surprises one how often you end up doing that...).

Feel extremely lucky, and somewhat shell-shocked in some ways...

Your city got torn into halves.  Literally.

Too many stories to tell here...

Thanks for asking. ;) J

While I understand where our friend, above, "actor, singer, stage director and audiobook narrator" is coming from, the acronym’s origins are different.

They were brilliantly marketed (perhaps coined, I don’t know) many decades ago by the owner of Linn to promote the sound of the Linn / Ittok TT + Naim amplification combo. The idea was to point to what those devices did well, excluding everything else (where they were mediocre).

The sound was somewhat mid-bass heavy, with mediocre resolution by today’s standards, but with very coherent mid-range restitution.
The overall sonic result was pleasant (my opinion - I used to have that combo).

Good summary Gregm. The irony is that the the LP12 of the mid eighties had dreadful micro timing stability due to the movement of the subchassis/armboard relative to the platter. Linn's mantra was pitch and rhythm. I have a feeing it was the journalists at The Flat Response magazine that converted that into PRaT.

Bias a tube amp a little low in mA and you’ll hear sluggishness that is moving toward lower prat. 
 

while I like OP’s binary approach to how a system sounds (does it right or not), I think if you go back and relisten to what’s working and what’s not, you’ll find sometimes a system has great soundstage, imaging, etc But it’s still falling into the not doing it for you bucket. That might be a lack of prat. 
 

some folks just here things differently—like OP’s view on Klipsch.  To me, they can be good rock speakers but some Klipsch offerings can convey delicate pieces and dynamics in a way that makes others sound brutish. Yet, OP hears “in your face”.

one may never hear things and that’s a blessing or maybe a curse.   Not sure.