Duke - I started out with the JBL woofers that were native to my L-200 which are the LE15B. Bill suggested that I would get better efficiency and a lower XO point by switching to the RCF L15P530 drivers. These, by the way, were a nightmare to locate as they had already been discontinued by the time Bill recommended them to me. It turned out that they had been bought mostly for car stereo subs even though that is not what they were originally designed for. The replacement apparently was not as good according to Bill.
If I ever get to the point of selling my horns, I have a vintage pair of 12 inch drivers that I will use as single drivers in a simple cabinet - so I guess that's my answer to the original question. |
This is an interesting thread with a lot of good information. For me, whatever the shortcomings of horn systems may be, and they surely have shortcomings as all speaker systems do, the (relatively) greater dynamic freedom gives the music a sense of reality that is missing when you listen to many otherwise good non-horn loaded speakers. I am just glad to see that the stigma is being lifted from horn based designs in the last 10 years or so, and that the technology is advancing. |
Duke why the midbass horn is so important to a proper horn loaded design. And probably the hardest of all to get right. |
Lrsky, I am primarily centering on horns with compression drivers, such as GoTo and old Altec systems. But I am talking about what I heard when I first heard horns. The were Klipsch corner horns sitting in the storage room in a dealer's shop. I sat on a stool as he prepared to demonstrate them with a Stereo 70 amp. He put on a snare drum recording. The volume was pretty high, but the first impact about blew me off the stool. I have always recalled that experience, especially listening to recordings with drums. My grandson is a drummer. I asked him if he had ever heard an accurate recording of a drum. He simply said, no.
I don't have compression horns now, so I could not tell him to listen to drums on them. I don't think they would equal to real, but a hell of a lot closer to real than any other speakers. I think pianos are another example. Yes, I am a leading edge freak. |
Macrojack, this is a cat that can be skinned more than one way.
At first glance, it looks like a crossover of 350 Hz between a fairly narrow-pattern horn and a direct-radiator woofer would not have a good radiation pattern matchup, and I think is probably the case (though the horn may be unloading somewhat down that low, resulting in some pattern widening). But it may not matter if the crossover is done right.
You see, below 500 Hz in most rooms, the ear is not very good at hearing radiation pattern discrepancies as long as the power response is good (this is my understanding of Earl Geddes on the subject). Bill Woods knows far more tricks of the trade than I do (he has many fine prosound designs to his credit, some of which show up in home audio systems because they're so darn good). So I'm sure he has this transition worked out very well.
Turning now to the realm of dynamic matching, Bill uses woofers that have excellent dynamic capabilities and so their thermal compression will be negligible at any SPL remotely likely in a home audio setting, thus matching the compression driver in that regard.
Duke |
lrsky,
I always heard the discontinuity in my omega duos between the horns and the built in subs. one problem is the dynamic discontinuity and the other one is the time alignment (the horns are 2-3 ms ahead of the subs) solved that problem by employing very efficient corner subs and by applying delay on the horns.
I agree people need to listen to unamplified acoustic music to hear what dynamics are!! even a good horns system can't completely reproduce the dynamic range of an orchestra but it gets so much closer than anything else.
the difference between reproduced music at home and live unamplified music is mainly dynamic range!
macrojack,
using one of the cheapest nokia phones. don't need a smart phone. got a computer with internet connectiuon at home |
Duke - Does a lower crossover point better conceal integration problems between a horn and a dynamic woofer? It seems that way to me. My own system crosses at about 350 Hz. |
"Two complaints have always been...'horn coloration', which I 'claim' to be able to hear that, (to me) characteristic 'horn sound'. That and the 'lack of dynamic' consistency between the horn and the bass 'drivers'.
"There's this discontinuity that I've always heard between those different drivers.
"So I'll ask--(Duke if he's out there), does this still exist?"
Hi Larry, well I think the colorations and discontinuities can be brought below the detection threshold for most people. On the coloration front, it starts with the design of the horn itself. My preference is for constant-directivity types that introduce as little diffraction as possible; this type of horn is often called a "waveguide". Its use calls for a fairly complex crossover so it doesn't appeal to many purists, but if the designer does his job well, neither you nor your amplifier would ever guess that the crossover is complex.
Addressing the dicontinuity issue requres a slightly different paradigm than what most people are used to. Instead of pairing up the best horn and best compression driver with the best woofer, we need to pair up the woofer, horn, and compression driver that work the best together. It's like Jim Thorpe, Muhammad Ali, Joe Montana, Tiger Woods, and Bjorn Borg are perhaps the best we've seen in their respective sports, but put 'em on a basketball court and the worst team in the NBA would eat them for lunch. The key is teamwork.
So getting back to horn speakers, we want to match up the dynamic capabilities of woofer and horn as closely as possible. That may mean using a prosound-type woofer whose thermal compression characteristics can keep with the compression driver. That may also mean not using the most uber-magnet hyper-efficient compression driver on the market.
The big thing I keep coming back to is the radiation pattern, and that's because it goes back to the most basic thing that our ears home in on: The frequency response. Most of the in-room sound we hear is reflected sound, so we can't afford to pretend like it doesn't matter if high fidelity is the goal. In particular, a radiation pattern discontinuity in the crossover region will let you know that there's a transition between drivers. The on-axis response can be smooth; the phase response can be smooth; and yet we hear the transition... in that case, look to the off-axis response! It matters because it's a far larger part of what we hear than is generally appreciated. Horns give us the opportunity to match up the pattern in the crossover region so that the off-axis response doesn't have a glitch there, and imho that should be taken advantage of.
I've had fellow speaker designers step into my room at an audio show and remark that they couldn't hear the crossover. That's either a high compliment about woofer-to-horn integration in the crossover region, or an admission that their ears are shot! I also have a customer who had one of my woofer + horn systems in a nearfield setup, so close that you could literally lean forward and touch the speakers. I expected to hear a vertical discontinuity when I sat down to listen, but with eyes closed I honestly couldn't. The apparent sound source was the center of the horn, and the crossover frequency was about 1.6 kHz. Now there may well be some instruments that would have appeared to come from lower, but in the course of listening to several songs I didn't hear it. This was unexpected, but indicates that, in some caes anyway, you don't need to be far back from a horn system in order for the drivers to integrate well.
Not that mine are the only systems that do this by any means, but mine are the ones I can speak from experience about. So take all of the foregoing with as many grains of salt as needed. This is all imho and ime and ymmv and etc.
Duke |
I don't think I've done this before, but...
I was commenting on another post and this seemed appropriate to this particular post. So I cut and pasted the last few sentences of that, as it relates to dynamics, horns etc. (I realized I write way too much sometimes, OK all the time).
Here it is...
This past Sunday, I was invited to a concert that a friend was conducting, a 40 piece 'BAND'...no strings.
During it, of course, I closed my eyes, pretending it was home stereo, (how 'bout that for full circle irony).
What was missing was pretty amazing.
Very little of the instrument specificity, (that may be something we simply 'apply' in orchestral works)in terms of location.
The MAIN thing missing (at home) is dynamic contrast. The zero to 115+db (and more) was startling. That, and the scaling of the various instruments and how different they are in that dynamic contrasting...piccalos are really, really dynamic, at least, they 'cut through', (no doubt a function of their place on the pitch scale and the human hearing 'curve') all the other instruments. Nature's way of allowing the piccalo to say, 'Here I am', even if I am a fraction the size of a Tuba!
All in all, it was a reminder of what Ngjockey said, AND how important it is to hear, (for me at least) accoustic music played. Moreover, it may, may have been a really good commercial for Horn Speakers--at least the dynamics made it a reminder.
Good listening, |
Tbg,
"I don't question that they have 'impressive' dynamics but not the speed of horns..."
Surprising...my Sound Labs were about as fast as I've heard...you're saying that horns are faster?
Just clarifying.
I may need to look at horns very seriously. I wish Duke didn't live in Katmandu...
Good listening,
Larry |
"There's this discontinuity that I've always heard between those different drivers."
I've always found matching two radically distinct kinds of drivers (in terms of efficiency and dynamics) in the same system to be inherently problematic, but have not noticed a problem in my admittedly limited exposure to what I would consider to be some of the better horn designs I have heard. |
Lrsky, having owned the big Sound Labs and many other electrostats, I don't question that they have 'impressive' dynamics but not the speed of horns, especially compression driver horns.
I should also say that all horn systems lack horn bass systems. Yes, such bass horns are very big.
I don't think we have yet 'blended' different drivers. I well remember Nelson Pass's full-range plasma speaker that landed him in the hospital and made me sick after about 15 minutes. It also had no dynamics. I was, of course, being fanciful in asking for a full-range point source driver with great efficiency. I don't expect this will happen in my lifetime. |
People almost always ignore comments such as Atmasphere's:
"Just to dispel a couple of common myths, Sound Labs are capable of impressive dynamics..."
This was my experience. I was actually, very, very pleasantly surprised at how dynamic they were. Just listening, if one didn't know the technology, I'm not sure that one would know they weren't dynamic/cone speakers.
Surprising.
I'm almost certain that my complaints about 'horn coloration' are also, likely, 'dated' and no longer applicable.
Two complaints have always been...'horn coloration', which I 'claim' to be able to hear that, (to me) characteristic 'horn sound'. That and the 'lack of dynamic' consistency between the horn and the bass 'drivers'.
There's this discontinuity that I've always heard between those different drivers.
So I'll ask--(Duke if he's out there), does this still exist? (Of course, given the great dynamics of the horn drivers, it 'has to exist'to some degree, otherwise the horn isn't doing what horns do). So the remaining question has to be, is it still a negative that's obvious? OR, has it been ameliorated to the point, in terms of 'blend' that it's no longer a fundamental issue? Was it ever? Anyone else hear that??
Just wondering.
Good listening,
Larry |
Macrojack, what horns do you have? Be happy, in 40 plus years in audio, I have had eight different horn systems, but not now. I still love their speed and efficiency. |
Macrojack,
Come back in a year or so...if you've stopped, 'Forever' (chasing the Holy Grail), we'll believe you.
A 'Pause' is not like quitting...my Dad, (God Rest His Soul) used to say, 'I can stop smoking Larry, I've done it a dozen times.' Somehow, I think that applies here.
The jury's still out just yet.
Good listening,
Larry |
My Lascala's have been with me longer than any other speakers and / or gear for my main listening room. Other things have come and gone, but they have proven the test of time, and, enjoyment. |
Since I got my horns I have purchased a couple of cars and another rental property. So that's the kind of thing you buy after you own horns because you are done worrying about audio at that point.
I'm currently wondering if I really need a smart phone. |
Atmasphere,
That's good information. Thanks! |
Mapman, I've been involved with some field-coil driver design exercises in the last few years. It is true that you get greater efficiency with field coils, but if so it will only be by 1 or 2 db. The main thing that governs efficiency is precision gaps with focused magnetic fields.
What field coil offers is a magnetic field that won't sag, something that no permanent magnet can claim. Its like the electro-static principle in that regard. IOW I would not look to this approach so much for greater efficiency as I would as a way to make the driver faster and more transparent. |
Macrojack, I have read nothing by Weseixas, but certainly horns can have vibration issues, as do all speaker, but of course the horns are a big radiation area. In my experience a tractrix horn sounds best. How I wish I could have horn performance that got close to the size of my Tidal Contrivas. I still remember when I was looking through a friend's MJ magazine from Japan, seeing a compression drive horn system. The first picture was the guy using a broom inside the mouth of his twin subwoofers. The mouth must have been at least eight feet by eight feet. A later picture showed the area behind his house with a structure that got increasingly narrow as it went probably fifty feet up the hill behind his house. It contained the horns with the compression driver at the back end. How I would have love to hear that system. |
Mapman, let me be the first you tell if you find the field coil Walsh.
Johnk, I have never heard either a DIY horn system, nor one that was well integrated even in what I would call a large room. Horns don't have a bad reputation with me as they alone have the snap that characterizes some instruments. But.... |
For a given size enclosure the basshorn will have lower distortion and better damping. Plus far less thermo compression in horn systems. A big positive for horn loaded designs. Controlled radiation pattern means better image with less room interference. I would say another benefit to large horns is they fill room with even SPL. With dynamic and other designs when you walk towards loudspeakers SPL greatly increases with horns room is filled with even SPL so you can stand next to a horn without the great increase in level, this to is a benefit of controlled radiation. |
Weseixas, who plainly knows next to nothing about horn loudspeakers, continues relentlessly to underscore that most evident fact with generalities, wives' tales and misinformation. What drives this foolish behavior? What makes a grownup act this way?
While I haven't the ability to measure my horns for distortion, I'm quite happy to say that I can't hear any indication of distortion at all. The presentation is calm and effortless. In my 330 square foot room, they aren't tested at all.
The high efficiency claim goes without saying, as does the radiation control. A horn works like a rifle barrel in directing the sound. The flare of the horn (in my case, 40 degrees) confines the lateral distribution thereby preventing any early interference from room boundaries. But not all horns are that narrow. Likewise, not all horns are made of inch thick, non-resonant hardwood. And not all horns are smooth and conical. Generalities about horns make as much sense as generalities about anything else.
Weseixas is just here to make trouble. Ask him about his death panels. |
radiation pattern control lack of distortion and efficiency
04-06-11: Johnk
Lack of distortion ? ... Interesting....
|
Horns do not all need massive space to sound there best. If properly designed large horns will work fine in near field etc. But most are not designed well and need extra listening distance to compensate for poor integration excessive colorations and poor time alignments. Since many are DIY and not properly designed listening space becomes more of an issue. You also have the market demanding small loudspeakers so many commercial horns do not offer proper mid bass or bass systems. So much of the info on horns comes from DIY types who insist on massive listening distance since in there experience its needed. Or from owners of undersized commercial offerings. Who complain of mismatched bass midbass etc. No wonder horns get such a bad reputation in forum. |
"But you will always have integration problems with horns. Instruments will change positions depending on where they are in frequency."
Maybe not in big rooms where distance to the speakers can make even a horn approximate a point source more.
In smaller or even typical rooms, I would probably have some concerns because I also believe point sources to be the optimal configuration for a speaker from a spatial integration perspective.
So purchasing a bigger room after horns is looking like a better and better idea all the time now!
"only a point source driver, capable of really quick peaks across the frequency range from 20 Hz to probably 100k Hz, and with efficiency of over 100 would really suffice."
That's why I'm still waiting for the world's first ever field coil based walsh driver design because that could take traditionally inefficient Walsh drivers to an even greater level.
It will also likely cost a fortune and potentially be difficult to maintain properly though, otherwise someone would have probably done it by now.
Oh well.... |
Renmeister, I just noticed this thread. I have been at audio for 40 plus years. I repeatedly tried horns beginning with Klipsch corner horns, then electrostats, then dynamic drivers, then electrostats, then horns, including the Duos and Trios, then dynamic drivers, then partial horns the Acapella LaCompanellas, and now back to dynamic drivers. By my count I have owned 24 different speakers.
You will never hear horn dynamics or speed out of anything else, especially if they use compression drivers. I once almost went to a five way GoTo compression driver system. But you will always have integration problems with horns. Instruments will change positions depending on where they are in frequency.
I became convinced that there was no best speaker; that all were compromises somewhere; that only a point source driver, capable of really quick peaks across the frequency range from 20 Hz to probably 100k Hz, and with efficiency of over 100 would really suffice. Fat chance of that ever being possible.
Perhaps I have given up, but I am back to dynamic drivers in the Tidal speakers. I really don't think there is a better compromise, but if you find one, please tell us about it. |
Horns can work well in smaller rooms too, if you take care to carefully match the amp and speakers. I have used Belles in a room 10 x 12.5, and also Altec Lansing Model 14s in the same room. Works great, and may require less in the way of room treatments then conventional speakers. |
IMO horns can also be enjoyed in medium sized rooms like 25 m2 |
|
Hardly! I've found some of the most expensive horn systems to be amongst the worst offenders. Space might require horns, but thankfully most people here don't need to fill an auditorium or a stadium. |
A bigger room may be the best answer yet.... |
So I guess we settled this. Money and space permitting, nothing can really compete with the best horns. |
Did you ever see pictures of gurus on top of mountains with folded legs, fingers meshed, half-closed eyelids and an expression of utter serenity? The way it is usually portrayed is that he is being sought out by the young person who climbs the mountain to ask "oh guru, oh guru, I have climbed this mountain to come to ask you what is the secret to life!"
The answer is obviously, as any self-respecting mountaintop guru will tell you, "Horns".
If the young person had asked for the "Ultimate Answer to Life and Everything", he would have gotten a different number, but he didn't so he got the lesser answer - "horns". But in my book, if you have gotten to horns you can be considered to have led a pretty successful life. Only years (7.5 million of them?) of mountain-top guruing get you to the next level. |
I'm not so sure there is anywhere to go after owning horns but I've often thought that buying a small church or movie theater might be a good idea WHILE owning them.
I can tell that my horns would like more space. |
Rest in pieces.
Recently saw one of my first projects, from almost 30 years ago, sitting busted and scavenged in the back of a theatre. Almost nothing left except the outer boxes and framework. 8' tall, 4' wide and 4' deep of seashell-like curved and laminated "folded" horns. Built on site. Was told, "Shame that their hidden". Maybe I should've made them to fit through the door. Each with dual 15's and dual mids. Thought I was stealing at 1500 bucks each. Forgive my moment of nostalgia. |
Ime THD does not correlate well with subjective preference. Imo THD is not the right yardstick to be measuring with; a horn or amp or whatever can have excellent THD numbers and still sound pretty bad, or have bad THD numbers and still sound excellent. I'm not horn-bashing here; I'm THD-bashing.
Better yardsticks have been proposed, but the industry has ignored them. |
"the Trio is like the best planar on steroids"
Funny, but I have heard some planar users that switched to OHM Walsh speakers (like myself) use that same analogy.
Having heard all kinds of speakers over the years, including some really good modern horns, I am convinced that a pair of big, expensive high efficiency horns like AG or similar are the only ones that could tempt me to change, if I could afford them and had the right room.
I would never be tempted to go with anything more than a small and easily maintained tube amp and would not want to rule out SS.
I learned a few more things about Avantgarde here that will keep them on my list of potentially coveted audio gear down the road I would say! |
My usual listening daytime level on the AG Trio at around 4.5m, peaks around 90db. Effortless with 1.5 watts. My Apogees at that level were great too, but with 1,000 watt/channel amps and dual active subs...
The Apogees even with the wonderful new Graz ribbons and SOTA cross overs could not do that weight and 3d presentation. Sorry to repeat myself, but the Trio is like the best planar on steroids. A logical progression if you love that planar presentation with the Duo not far behind. The separation and impression the sound is coming along way in front of the speaker is marked.
I personally cant go back, even though I had magical listening sessions with Magnepans, Apogees etc... Avantgarde have something right and should not be thought of horns sonically.
I am sounding like an advert but I have yet to hear better across the board. Which is why the answer to the post is better horns... I wish I could say something small, interesting and cheap. I guess what you spend on the speaker is saved on the amps! |
I think it was measured at 1 m distance, at a typical distance of 3 meters the volume would be down by a few db so the measurement was not that unrealistic. Guess he had to crank the volume up that much to get any thd to measure.
IMHO horns even played at peaks of 90 db only (which even a decent planar can reach) sound more dynamic than other speakers. they just seem to be able to follow the volume swings of dynamic music more correctly. one reason might be that because of their inherent efficiency the voice coil never sees large currents and heats up. |
"martin collums measured THD at 110 db"
For those kinds of volumes, except perhaps in the case of smaller rooms, good horns in particular, like Avantgarde should shine and be a safe choice.
Again, the advantage is efficiency and the ability to GO LOUD as a result IF DONE WELL.
Of course there are many forms of distortion. THD is just the most common standard measure applied.
I should measure how loud I listen. I think it is pretty loud sometimes but does not ever approach 110db, so that might be overkill. |
martin collums measured THD at 110 db! the midhorn had only around 0,1% THD and the tweeter 0,3%. I doubt even a speaker like wilson's alexandria could compete with that. That is exceptional compared to most conventional speakers. It suggests they got the horn design well optimized. Is there a link to the article? |
regarding distortions of horns I remember a very old stereophile review of the original duo's from '97.
martin collums measured THD at 110 db! the midhorn had only around 0,1% THD and the tweeter 0,3%. I doubt even a speaker like wilson's alexandria could compete with that.
of course the build in sub had much higher distortions at that level.
believe many planars would get fried when attempting to measure their distortions at that level! |
No, I did not tweak my Klipsches. I know they can be made better. Thought they were great on some music but could be almost painful at other times.
In some ways the humble Forte really was the favorite. |
Check out Tom Danley's Jericho horn playing on youtube. |
Chadeffect, it does appear the newer Trio has a higher impedance. Their website does not have a lot of technical data, but it seems pretty sure that 3 of the 4 passive crossover components must be caps. If a choke is added to the bass horn, the overall impedance would not be such a hard load for tube amps as the earlier Trios. Overall it would appear that the speaker is nominally an 8 ohm load. |
Magico Q3,Q5 Much better. |
Atmasphere,
am I right in saying that due to this impedance curve on the trio they designed the CDC? I was under the impression this made it tube friendly |
Paulfolbrect, I was referring to the width/length of the horn/throat. I admit that the construction can be better. When you had the Khorns/Lascalas did you do any damping to the mid horn (and cabinets). Every pair I was ever involved with, after damping, eliminated most of what you speak of. As a sidebar : Speaking of damping, I find most tubes have colorations and distortions until you dampen them. But please lets leave this topic to another thread. Regards... |
"IMO the fact that horn-loaded drivers don't have to move much to make a lot of sound helps keep their distortion down."
Mass and inertia are certainly big considerations when designing any high performance speaker, no doubt.
The bending wave theory of sound propagation associated with Walsh style drivers is another design approach that I think solves much of the problem in a very unique and innovative manner.
Of course the radiation pattern of a Walsh driver is at the exact opposite end of the spectrum from horns or waveguides.
Its cool that there are so many different ways to tackle the same problem! |
