Weseixas, I try to be nice, and you, must once again, prove you are an A hole. I will say your bug species is more enduring than I had anticipated. Shoo shoo....... |
There are not many things we can be sure of , except rain comes from the clouds , sun lights up the sky and horn zealots know how to cry . |
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I am not sure how this thread will continue from here, if at all, so I just wanted to say I have enjoyed this "post", even though there were some rough spots. As a horn owner, and more importantly, an audiophile/music lover, I feel that I have made some fine aquaintances here, even of some who are not owners of horns. The exchanging of ideas, attitudes and good information, was enlightening and entertaining. I still feel Audiogon is a great place to be, so it will be my pleasure to continue to see you all again. Mr D |
I use a med efficient ribbon hybrid loudspeaker in one of my systems, enjoyable has much detail can listen for long hours without fatigue like my main horn system. Ribbons today are now tube friendly and more efficient than dynamics that are not horn loaded. So can match the highly efficient woofers that are available in legion today. Many company's offering med eff. hybrid ribbon designs. For me thats what I enjoy when not using my horn systems. And stays in topic. But I do also offer such just to disclose. Most available are around 95db designs or about %5 efficient 95% waisted as heat. Compared to many dynamics 88db 4 ohm at .60% over 99% of power waisted as heat. This can mater sonically since this heat is in amp and voice coils thus thermo compression is the result. There is also a end cost to owners more power used on system sometimes $100s more a year. More wear of mechanical parts due to thermo stress. More heat in home environment that HVAC must handle again more cost. Plus the cost to nature if thats a issue for you. There are other benefits if one looks for over 91db 8 ohm designs. |
Mapman, certainly, but there are problems for all varieties of speakers. As I said, I miss the speed of horns but am happy with my Tidals. |
Zealot- According to Wikipedia - noun meaning : 'adherent, loyalist, enthusiast, patriot. Thank you Unsound for complimenting us ! You need to get over yourself.... |
Wow, horn guys can be high strung!
Must be all those dynamics!
Makes me wonder.
Totem's are not a bad idea but you need a really juicy amp! |
More personal attacks by the zealots. |
Dave_b, I agree about the Totems and would add the Reference 3A Grand Veenas while you can still get the Murata supertweeter. But neither comes near the speed of compression driver horns. Nevertheless, I will probably not go back to horns for a third time. |
Duke,
You are absolutely correct.
The internet creates a sense of, or rather actions of 'false bravatto'. Things that nobody would say in person, they'll write to another person confidently, from the safety of their own home.
Lots of bullies created by the internet.
Good listening,
Larry |
Dave_b, I agree about the Totems and would add the Reference 3A Grand Veenas while you can still get the Murata supertweeter. But neither comes near the speed of compression driver horns. Nevertheless, I will probably not go back to horns for a third time. |
I don't think Renmeister cares much based on his absence here....my suggestion would be for Totem speakers, which are exceptionaly expressive and nuanced. |
Now get good speakers Magico maybe. |
Well, this thread can only be compared to ongoing MM/MC debate. And let's not bring the insects in; they have nothing to do with it and somehow manage to enjoy life while they have it. Who knows what they "think" of us? |
I suggest these "two" read the original op again, and the accompanying paragraph. Very plainly he speaks positively about horns, but not other designs he has listened to. Duh........... Bass to horn integration was what he lacked. He had dynamics which he loved. Unsound, you think your 3.5s would have satisfied him. No, because they are lifeless and contrived (to some of us). Stop annoying us. We all sent Renmeister away because of the two of you. You would not let the horn loving community help him. Shame shame, shoo shoo. |
Larry - Those guys continually invade church services and harass the faithful about their beliefs, all the while calling them zealots. If they are of a different faith, let them stay at home and worship as they see fit.
Do a search of horns and you will see that they both do the same tiresome thing every time a thread concerning horns appears.
As Dan-Ed said, we are all aware that they don't like horns. There is no need for perpetual harassment from them. |
Like a fly that I swatted several times, but keeps returning to annoy me. Not a wasp, bee or mosquito, because they inflict pain, but just a fly, a regular household fly, just an annoyance....shoo shoo. |
"...there's nothing important enough about audio to make someone angry--it's a hobby."
Very well said, Larry.
I think if people met in the hallway at an audio show, instead of on this internet forum / virtual battlefield, they'd instantly become friends.
Actually, I had just that experience a couple of years ago... meeting someone at RMAF that I'd squabbled with (and frankly been rather rude towards). He posted earlier in this thread, and he's a helluva nice guy.
Duke |
And so it came to pass...
That after an eon of disagreement, the horn lovers were verily converted to dynamic speakers, and alas, the dynamic lovers...you guessed it, fell in love with HORNS!
Play nice guys, there's nothing important enough about audio to make someone angry--it's a hobby.
Good listening, and PEACE
Larry |
More personal attacks by the zealots. |
Not all horn speakers are the same. Some are better than others. I have not heard all of them. If I had, I could offer one person's opinion, only one person's opinion. Some of you seem to feel that you are speaking on behalf of many people when you express your opinion. Likewise, can it even be called an opinion if it is not sufficiently informed?
Very few of you have ever heard horns like mine and I would bet that none of you have spent significant time with them. They are quite scarce. Yet outright blanket condemnation is proffered by members who have found some other kind of horn inadequate or offensive.
It's like basing your opinion about women on an overheard conversation between Rosie O'Donnell and Donald Trump. Yes, one of them is a woman - I'll leave it to you to figure out which is witch.
Weseixas and Unsound are a sad fact of life. Party crashers with bad intentions will always arrive just when the collective mood is at its most ebullient. As Dan-Ed has pointed out repeatedly, those two show up to drop a turd in the punchbowl every time the word "horn" appears in a thread title. They seem unable to help themselves. In their minds, we need their sobering influence. In my mind, they need to evaporate. |
Dan ed. Thank you for clearing that up. I guess all of the readers of this forum (but me) knew who "they" both are, without the "other" name being mentioned. What was I thinking. Again, sorry. By the way, your system looks great. In all my years involved in forums, as well as the industry, I have never run across individuals such as Unsound and Weseixas. Sure there have been proponents of this verses that, but never to the extent shown by these two. The fact that Jim Thiel understood and accepted my admiration for horns and, helped me improve upon them, shows a special kind of "class" that some individuals have, and, some not. Hopefully, they will learn to get along with others. It would be a welcome miracle ! However, as Atmasphere has mentioned, it keeps things interesting. But I do disagree with something Atmasphere said when welcoming opinions by "them". I do not trust their experiences, either them not knowing, or, not having enough listening exposure. Although they both claim to be experts and have listened to it all. I can understand why one does not like horns, but please......One day they will understand that one person likes chocolate and another likes vanilla(actually, Weseixas sought of said this just recently). So maybe there is hope. Have a good day ! Always MrD |
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Mrdecibel, only the part above the quote was directed to Atmasphere. |
Dan_ed, as usual you are wrong .... |
Dan ed, I do not think you are directing this last post to the right person( Atmasphere is not the one ). Atmasphere is one of the good guys ! |
Atmasphere, the issue I have is that we have to have these same damn "discussions" every time horn comes up on Audiogon. Zealot troll, there is enough of this on both sides.
"It doesn't matter what you or the others think sound the "best", that's the choice we all have and make when we put together " our" system."
That is exactly my position, but what I read from you and Unsound does not give me the impression you guys really feel that way. We all know by now that you and Unsound find no redeeming qualities to horn speakers. We get, it. We don't need to be reminded each and every time a horn thread comes up on Audiogon. Why not just let the "zealots" have their fun?
Are you sure the OP got out of horns? He certainly got tired of you and Unsound. |
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JohnK, I found the link to be very interesting and informative. Thank you |
When I went from KHorns I went to Full Range Drivers. To me they give a lot of what the KHorns gave without a certain "shout." I listen a lot more now.
I can't recommend any in the $8K range though, more like $2K.
Not sure if Renmeister is still listening, he hasn't posted in this thread in about a month, can't say I blame him. When I switched I'm glad I didn't ask...Jeez |
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/pwr-vs-eff.htm |
Weseixas, I am not knocking Thiel. The man was someone I met and shared ideas with, and I represented his products for years. In fact, it was he who gave me the idea to "deaden" the Lascala enclosures. This was a long time ago, and the audio community, as well as his family, misses him. However, I am discussing certain limitations of the 3.5s, in comparison to my Lascalas, as well as some other horns I have listened to. When we talk about scale and dynamics, using full range orchestral music, at my preferred listening level of 100db, the 3.5s are not very good, to my ears, whatever amp drove them. I am not alone. People were always trading up from the 3.5's (in fact,there is a fellow in my neighborhood, who after hearing my system, now has his 3.5s listed on Craig's list, he is looking for $500. or so ). Actually, the midrange and treble of the 3.5s always sounded better in these respects sans the eq, but none the less the eq was necessary. I do not care for Unsound, because he uses words like "obnoxious" to describe horns, which his very delicate ears cannot tolerate. And my presumptions about him are correct. And yes, I was giving it back, so to speak, as I had done to you as well. I wish things were more civil, but it appears that the two of you always take it one step further, although you play 2nd to him. So good for you. Any other questions or comments I will respond. Take care. |
Weseixas, when I use the term 'efficient' or 'efficiency' with regards to speakers its usually with the 1 watt/1 meter spec in mind. If you say 'sensitive' or 'sensitivity' to me in the same context I assume you are talking 2.83V/1 meter.
Not into caffeine, but I think you will find that a good majority of dome tweeters are indeed rated at 2 watts, with some of greater power handling, although the latter is less common than the former. I'm not used to seeing horn tweeters that handle less than 2 watts, and I have seen them handling as much as 15 watts; with immensely higher efficiencies (10X) that horns have over domes, this can be a significant advantage. |
My mother always told me that she saw nothing wrong in a healthy debate.... of course, she was always the initiator! (instigator) Love those moms |
In actuality Ralph, I do agree with you more than you let on and i do understand your stance on horn speakers. Since i do not use OTL tube amps they will not work for me and in your case they work for you, because of your type of amplfication.
In the end regardless of how we spin the science each designer is putting his 2 cents on how things should "sound" , their interpretation and presentation of what one should expect..
IMO, Everyone is right, because so much is still wrong.
Regards, |
Unsound, just for the record, I have stated many many times that I own a pair of "Klipsch Lascalas" so maybe you were not paying attention.
04-26-11: Mrdecibel
And you are knocking Thiel's ...... LOL.
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Ohh,
Atmasphere, I think you meant to say more sensitive than a dome tweeter not efficient.
For eg,
ESL's are very efficient in the bass, so there will be some some synergy with your high output impedance OTL's..
Regards, |
Mrdecibel, your presumptions are quite amazing. Once again, the zealots make it personal. |
*Regular dome tweeters don't handle very much power (2 watts is common)
*There are of course many tweeters than handle more than 2 watts,
.
*But 2 watts is indeed quite common
..
- Atmasphere
Ahh err, OK so let me see if i get this right, so as not to misquote you again.
Regular dome tweeters don't handle very much more than 2 watts, but many tweeters do and 2 watts is quite common?
OK so one can conclude that regular and common only handle 2 watts, but "many" handle more, so if one wants a tweeter that handle's more than 2 watts one would get a "many " tweeter and stay away from the "Regular" and "common" models.
Seriously Ralph forget about OTL Tubes and negative feedback, you are on to something better than Redbull.
Regards, |
The OP has gotten out of horns and now the church attempts to drag him back in by flaming others.
Dan_ed, John-k, it appears the mods allow you guys to flame others without recourse. John-K why don't you try backing up your rhetoric with some real data, I mean you claim a lot, show something, instead you choose to flame others..
I'm not here promoting any topology, I have never told anyone to switch from horns, ESL, ribbons , Thiels or anything for that matter. It doesn't matter what you or the others think sound the "best", that's the choice we all have and make when we put together " our" system.
What i will not let pass is the Phoobie dust science you guys spew for reality, no! i will not allow such to go uncheck and i know enuff about horns to know they do not work for me, preferring speakers which are more time and phase coherent with low coloration...
Dig !!!
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Before Y'all go calling Unsound and Weseixas trolls, consider the fact that their advocacy is what keeps certain parts of this community on their respective toes. I for one value their input, even though I often disagree. If they can present an argument that has merit, I feel that it should be considered. I used to have a very similar viewpoint about horns as Unsound as often expressed: horns can play louder than most any other loudspeakers, but they're a one trick pony, IMHO, sounding completely obnoxious in every other regard. Now that I no longer agree with this comment is only based on my experience have having to re-visit what horns are about. This is experiential, and we don't all have the same experience. IMO/IME, it is probably more important to sort out why that is the case- I think we can learn more if we look at it that way. BTW- I was the one that mentioned the 120 db. If an orchestra can do it, we should be able to in the home too. That we are not there yet ( 'turn that !@#$%^ down!' ) says a lot about the weaknesses in our technology. |
I think Atmasphere makes an important point. For me, loudness can mean many things, not just the ability to produce sound that measures 120 dB!
From my perspective, in addition to absolute level, it includes rise time and the ability to produce a given level cleanly and without stress. I've never heard live acoustic music sound distorted or harsh. Yes it may become too loud to be comfortable but that is a function of sound pressure levels. Reproduced music on the other hand can become uncomfortable for me to listen to long before it becomes so loud I need to turn it down or leave the room.
So back to the OP question, I suppose it becomes an issue of finding speaker/amp combinations with sufficient headroom and low distortion. After that the specific choice is a matter of personal taste -- a point emphasized by many of the replies here. |
Unsound, just for the record, I have stated many many times that I own a pair of Klipsch Lascalas, so maybe you were not paying attention. |
My experiences with 3.5s is that even at 100 db they show signs of serious compression, as well as ill defined bass and peaky treble, and this was with Krell amplification, a better match than Threshold, ime. 100 db is a volume that I do listen at, and good horns do this well. I do not believe room size matters when discussing loudness cues. At a lower listening level, dynamics are still apparent in recordings and the speaker can either deliver them or not. The bashing that the two mentioned posters speak has not bothered me in quite a while. It is actually amusing, because I do not think either of these individuals have spent much time around live, unamplified music, leaving them with a dislike of anything close. I will continue on this thread, enjoying myself, and knowing the truth. So bash all you want. Your 3.5s do not sound anything like live music, just a good hifi speaker. However, I will never bash you because this is the sound you go for. To each his own. I take that back. I am still awaiting your shipping address for the shipment of the Qtips. Enjoy ! |
We've had this conversation, Unsound. You troll every thread that has the "horn" word in it. |
Another zealot, with another personal attack. Dan_ed, perhaps you'd like to review my total posting history here on Audiogon, before handing in that bingo card. |
"You and Weseixas are just trolls" BINGO! |
OK, time for a 'respect intervention'.
Johnk, we really don't call posters on Audiogon, names.
We don't hurl insults.
All of us have differing opinions, likes, dislikes--that's the nature of the human existence.
Keep it civil or find others to talk to in this manner.
On to the core issue.
Listening to ANYTHING at 120db is a recipe for serious hearing loss.
The issue is the hearing mechanism. After exposure to loud volumes for as little as 15 minutes, our ears, in an effort to adjust, start to 'shut down', this being different from hearing LOSS. But the result is, to 'perceive' the same volume, we must turn up the SPL to have that same sensation. This louder adjustment, is the issue that causes us to 'keep turning it up' to the point of hearing damage.
NASA contracted a study years ago, as the Astronauts couldn't hear Mission Control 'even though the volume was high'...in fact, THAT WAS the problem...the headsets were set so loud, the Astronauts' ears were 'shutting down' making communication virtually impossible.
An SPL meter, or an app for a MAC computer (IPOD/IPAD) works, will allow you to monitor the volumes you're listening at.
As I mentioned in another post, not all of us prefer horns, that doesn't disqualify them--and 'horn lovers', dynamic speakers are not 'seriously flawed'...this has to do with what we individually 'look for' in music reproduction.
90db is a relatively loud level, AND won't harm.
Moreover, let's stay CIVIL on this site.
Good listening,
Larry |
Larry ... I did not say i have owned panels . I did have a demo set of Maggy 20.1's in my system for a week . I do have friends with M.L. CLX's and another with M.L. Quests , a member of are audio club has 2 sets of Quad's , that I have become well aquatinted with . There probably all great speakers but none have really pushed my buttons . |
