I think it’s generally agreed in the industry that a box is the worst possible shape for a loudspeaker cabinet.yep. We are being duped. Most audiophiles dont want to hear that though. Even ATC use box shapes and yet they are regarded as the finest speakers. It is all a hoax.
The main reasons why most are built this way seems to be consumer expectations of domestic acceptability and manufacturing convenience.
What Do You Think . . . and How Does It Work?
While watching vids on YouTube, I came across this pipe speaker design from a Dr. Linkwitz (see below). The sound of this speaker is said to be impressive. I was wondering if you know about this, how it works and what you think of this speaker design. Also, what do you think would be the best room placement for such a speaker, and would you be tempted to build them?
https://www.linkwitzlab.com/Pluto/intro.htm
https://www.linkwitzlab.com/Pluto/intro.htm
167 responses Add your response
The whole reason for OB, right, boundaries, and boxes are not the first choice, of a seasoned speaker builder. I’m not a commercial speaker builder, seasoned, oh yea.. I build what I know works, for over 45 years, now. The 120 to 130 pairs, I’ve put out...Not a round one in the bunch. Though I did do an underground concrete vault one time.. that is still working fine.. 1/2 ton OB Lattice structure, with ribbon and planar drivers are my thing. NO BOX, NO TUBE, it’s not round, event the driver openings are rectangle, not round... Time to go feed the chickens.. and George... the goat. and Junior the rabbit, and Bubs the dog. Regards.. |
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kenjit, "Even ATC use box shapes and yet they are regarded as the finest speakers. It is all a hoax." Be fair kenjit, ATC started introducing curved slightly tapered side panels to their domestic cabinets a few years back. You can be sure they did it for good sonic reasons. http://atcloudspeakers.co.uk/hi-fi/loudspeakers/entry-series/scm40/ Tapered cabinets must be a nightmare to produce consistently. Others like Sonus Faber have been doing it for decades. The big exception is Harbeth but then they follow the BBC research which identifed these issues some 50 years ago. To keep the accepted box cabinet they came up with the almost unique concept of carefully constructed thin walled lossy cabinets as an answer. As far as I know only Harbeth and Spendor currently do this. |
I just finished building a pair of LXMinis (Plutos are the old version). But I'm not ready to give an opinion on sound because I don't have them in the best location at the moment. And heaven forbid, I'm using a cheap pair of Chinese stereo Class-D amps (I'll worry about switching to another amp later if they measure poorly in a good location. I've been in blind amp tests, so I don't worry too much about amps, but some of these cheap amps do have FR problems.). But I will say I played the Chesky Ultimate Demonstration Disc and they did everything the disc said they were supposed to. As always with DIY, expect it to take longer and cost more than you think. My first impression is that they'd be better with subs, but subs require an upgrade to a $500 DSP and programming, whereas the regular kit from Madisound comes with a preprogrammed MiniDSP. And the plans are an extra $100+. Also the plans aren't 100% clear and don't perfectly match the Madisound kit (but close enough). Another point of contention is that the plans don't tell you how to connect the MiniDSP to which amp channels. I had to figure that out from reading the LXMini build forum. Keep in mind that the concept of active crossovers is a whole different animal. It may not be just plug-n-play like passive crossovers, which I've had experience building before. If you need to adjust the programming you're going to need a measurement microphone and REW, and the time to learn how to use that. So at least another $100. I already have those. And you'd need to learn how to program the MiniDSP if it needs adjustment. You're also not going to make perfectly straight cuts in 3-4" PVC unless you have a miter or radial arm saw. My 10" miter wouldn't cut all the way through the 4", so I had to fiddle with trimming it a bit. And cutting PVC makes an absolute mess. The dust settles on everything like a magnet. If you do decide to go this route, start with a simple source. My system runs wirelessly from a laptop running Amazon Music HD and MusicBee into a Paradigm PW Link preamp into a MiniDSP 2x4 HD into each channel of the amps (each driver gets its own channel). But first I tested using a CD player straight into the MiniDSP. It cut down on the points of failure. And obviously looks are subjective. My buddy says it looks like a combination of an ashtray and a pipe bomb. I wrapped mine completely in black woodgrain with silver undertones vinyl, which provided its own set of problems. I like the quirky looks simply because they are so different, and they're about function over form. But I don't expect these to supplant my next project that I'm building for my new media room - Bill Fitzmaurice David w/upgraded drivers in charcoal auto paint. Another quirky looking, function-over-form speaker from a brilliant designer. |
Be fair kenjit, ATC started introducing curved slightly tapered side panels to their domestic cabinets a few years back. You can be sure they did it for good sonic reasons. It looks like ALL their professional speakers are boxes. We all know boxes are bad. http://atcloudspeakers.co.uk/professional/loudspeakers/ Having curves doesn't stop it being a box. Its still a box. You gain nothing from having slightly tapered side panels. Its just cosmetic. Hence they do it on their hifi speakers because appearance is important to audiophiles. |
Would you please share with us again the perfect design? 32’ wide concrete side panels, correct? Speakers mounted flush with ghe side of the house cut out and an anechoic chamber for as a listening room, correct? Or was Bose and Sonos. And cheap ear buds? 😂 LoL, you on the other hand are prime for stand up! You’ll be happy to know you aren’t my least favorite here though anymore! I thought this was an interesting video about the speakers in question! Check it out 👍 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X-jPWrGUjEs |
Bob540, the Linkwitz speakers disappear and present music in a natural, organic way. Since they are lightweight, you can keep them against a wall then move them closer to your listening seat when you want the best sound. Seigfried Linkwitz was brilliant as a speaker designer. Checkout Linkwitz Labs website for an education. (Kenjit) They may not have brand appeal, (magico), but they sound better IMHO. |
I thought this was an interesting video about the speakers in question! Check it outI checked the setup. Its obviously not a state of the art system. It would be ok for background music. Seigfried Linkwitz was brilliant as a speaker designer.completely disagree. There were no commercial speakers made by him as far as i know. He obviously had a few designs that were available as DIY projects but i dont know of any that stereophile reviewed. I rarely see audiophiles mention his name on forums. I hear names like B&W, Dynaudio, Wilson, Magico, Harbeth, Kef. But Linkwitz? No chance. |
Kenjit wrote: "[Siegfried Linkwitz] obviously had a few designs that were available as DIY projects but i dont know of any that stereophile reviewed." Liinkwitz had several commercial designs which were manufactured by a company called Audio Artistry. One of them received Stereophile’s 1998 Loudspeaker of the Year award. Here’s the review: https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/328/index.html Duke |
^ Linkwitz’s speakers ARE well known and sought after. If you want to get a glimpse into why he is considered a brilliant speaker designer (by all other speaker designers, and electronics guys like Nelson Pass), read his technical papers (his website is a treasure trove of knowledge and wisdom). Prove you’re not just a lazy know-nothing braying jackass. |
" But the claim was that Linkwitz was a brilliant speaker designer. You would think his speakers would be well known and sought after. That just isnt the case. What makes him so brilliant if few audiophiles care about his speakers? " The standard defense mechanism of the narcissist is contempt, which you display in most of your posts. The defining characteristic of narcissism is grandiosity, or an unearned sense of superiority. You sir are in no position to express contempt towards Siegfried Linkwitz. You have no accomplishments. Your posts say much more about you than about whoever or whatever you are posting about. Duke |
The standard defense mechanism of the narcissist is contempt. You have no idea how much you reveal about yourself with your posts.Nobody has asked you for a psychiatric evaluation of me neither do i want one and neither can it be done online. I suggest you stick to the topic of discussion rather than try to discredit me using an ad hominem accusation of narcissism. |
" I suggest you stick to the topic of discussion rather than try to discredit me using an ad hominem accusation of narcissism." When you expressed contempt towards Siegfried Linkwitz, your behavior became "the topic of discussion." And once again you exhibit a classic symptom of narcissism; quoting from the article linked below: "People with narcissistic personality disorder... turn the blame onto others." https://www.helpguide.org/articles/mental-disorders/narcissistic-personality-disorder.htm When you stop exhibiting narcissistic behavior, I will stop pointing it out. Deal? Duke |
This is a speaker forum and i signed up to discuss speakers not peoples behavior or character. Narcissism is a term that was made up by a nobody. Its just a hodgepodge of different characteristics that apply to EVERYBODY. Grandiosity and superiority? Everybody has that to some extent. Who cares? At some point It was then decided by an incompetent that narcissism should be an illness! and now we hear it being bandied about everywhere. There is no such thing as narcissism. I dont buy it. It cant be proven or disproven. It is utter poppycock. End of story. Anybody who is incapable of sticking to discussing the topic is the one with a PROBLEM and needs treatment. Its nothing but an ad hominem FALLACY. Duke Im still waiting for evidence to show how brilliant your speakers are. I dare you to show me. They are expensive little speakers. You have just as much onus as I do to prove yourself. The speaker industry is full of grandiose claims which are rarely proven and every new speaker that comes along is supposedly better than its predecessors! its a neverending sham that needs to be stopped. The Linkwitz speakers you mentioned are no longer in production. They are certainly not well known. Not in the same way as kef atc and b&w. If they were so brilliant there would be no need for magico wilson or atc! Contempt is a necessity for being an audiophile! Otherwise EVERY speaker would be acceptable and the standards would never progress to a higher level. Long live the champion! Kenjit ~ Perfectionist bar none |
" This is a speaker forum and i signed up to discuss speakers not peoples behavior or character. " You have attacked the character of everyone on this forum in one way or another. You have said or insinuated that all audiophiles except for you are fools. You have accused me and my kind (speaker designers) of incompetence and dishonesty. You attacked Siegfried Linkwitz in this thread. You are the one who made it about people’s character. " There is no such thing as narcissism. " Amazing. Your defense is to deny that the behavior disorder you exhibit even exists. The voice inside of you which invented that defense is NOT your friend. " Long live the champion! " " Kenjit ~ Perfectionist bar none " Way too easy to identify these as narcissism. Kenjit, YOU are not your behavior disorder, so stop defending it. IT does not have YOUR best interest at heart. "The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off." - Gloria Steinem Duke |
KenjitThank you for looking at the pics on the Linkwitz site and determining that the speakers were good for "background music". I don't know many others that can judge a speakers sound by looking at pictures - you really are an expert! I have listened to the LXmini and own the LX521.4, I have listened to B&W speakers costing 5 times more than the LX521 and the Linkwitz design still wins.The LX521 and the LXmini are available commercially from Germany, but I guess because you did not know it then it is not true.I find your comments about Linkwitz and his speaker designs nothing short of IGNORANT. |
You have attacked the character of everyone on this forum in one way or another.There are many problems within the industry that i have identified. The inability of audiophiles to hear problems is in itself a problem. All these problems involve people so it is impossible to discuss them without mentioning the people involved. The fact that you see it as an insult rather than a problem misses the point. The fact that you attack my character rather than the arguments i make is a fallacy. You provide no solutions or reasons to refute what i say. You have nothing to offer duke. You attacked Siegfried Linkwitz in this thread Wrong. I attacked his design. I cast doubt on his method of using pvc as its not really rigid which is obvious to anybody that has used it. Linkwitz himself admits pipes have other serious problems if you read his website. Somebody claimed he was a brilliant speaker designer, and i challenged this assertion. Im allowed to. I reasonably asked why if he was so brilliant, his designs have not achieved much commercial success. In response you cited an obscure review in stereophile, which doesnt convince me. The fact is its all opinions. There is no agreement on what tests to use to decide how good a speaker is. The linkwitz riley crossover which bears his name is not the only game in town. Plenty of designers dont use it. Plenty of designers including b&w choose the humble first order electrical design, and b&w has still sold untold pairs of speakers. I am primarily an audiophile rather than a designer. As audiophiles we must be sceptical. We are entitled to be, given the amount of misinformation in this hobby and exaggerated or unproven claims. The onus is on your kind to show proof. Kenjit ~ Perfectionist bar none " Wrong again. You’re just choosing to misinterpret what i say in order to support your nasty accusations against me. There can be more than one interpretation (eg. a joke ) and there are no nonverbal cues on here that would help you to decide. @ctstereo I have listened to the LXmini and own the LX521.4, I have listened to B&W speakers costing 5 times more than the LX521 and the Linkwitz design still wins. Thats just your preference. It says nothing about how well the design performs and there is no agreement on what measurements matter when deciding that anyway, so there is no way to tell. In conclusion, there is no evidence that the linkwitz pluto speakers are superior to conventional boxes. Its all hearsay. The driver he refers to as a tweeter is in fact a full range mini driver. It goes lower than a typical tweeter at the expense of other factors such as high frequency extension and dispersion. Distortion on the driver seems high as well. Despite all the supposed advances in driver technology the linkwitz speaker uses a fairly ordinary 5 inch woofer. It seems odd to claim that a speaker using such ordinary parts can achieve extraordinary performance. Are we being duped by the industry into thinking that driver quality is more important than it really is? |
kenjit, Like many of us here you also seem to be searching for definitive answers and ultimate truths when it comes to loudspeaker performance. Unfortunately, there may not be any. Whilst it's always advisable to keep an open and inquisitive mind, isn't there also a corresponding danger of falling into the trap of excessive paranoia and suspicion? From my point of view when a designer has spent decades looking at every facet of loudspeaker performance in as much precise detail as Siegfried Linkwitz obviously did, I feel compelled to pay attention to his words. You need an example? How about this one taken from his website? N - Mounting a driver to a baffle "There is yet another potential problem with the driver to baffle interface, even if the baffle is perfectly inert. It is related to the mechanical construction of the driver itself and how it can become a mechanical resonator of its own. Typically a loudspeaker driver has screw holes in its basket for mounting it to a baffle. Usually a sealing gasket is placed between the driver basket rim and the baffle. The driver becomes in effect stiffly clamped to the baffle. This method sets up a mechanically resonant structure which is formed by the compliance of the basket and the mass of the magnet as seen in figure (A). A) Drivers with a stamped metal baskets are prone to exhibit a high Q resonance when tightly clamped to the baffle. The magnet moves relative to the voice coil at the resonance frequency. Energy is stored and also readily transmitted from the moving mass of the cone into the cabinet. B) Soft mounting the driver basket to the baffle using rubber grommets reduces the resonance frequency. A 2nd order lowpass filter is formed that reduces the transmission of vibration energy from the moving cone to the baffle and cabinet. The resonance must occur below the operating range of the driver. C) If the driver is mounted from the magnet and the basket rim touches the baffle only softly, then the magnet-basket resonance cannot occur and the transmission of vibration energy into the baffle is minimized. The basket-magnet resonance can be measured with an accelerometer that is mounted to the magnet. The drive signal is optimally a shaped toneburst. Its energy is concentrated in a narrow frequency band. When tuned to the right frequency a long decay tail becomes visible on an oscilloscope. Often the resonance can be seen as a small bump in the driver's impedance curve in the few hundred Hz range. It should not be confused with the higher frequency bump due to cone breakup. An early example of a box loudspeaker where a KEF B110 midrange/woofer driver magnet is clamped to a support structure. The clamp can be tightened from the outside of the box. The basket rim is floating. Often the effects due to driver mounting are deemed to be of secondary importance to the overall sound quality of a loudspeaker. They are usually costly to remedy. They cannot be ignored when the goal is to design a loudspeaker of the highest accuracy." https://www.linkwitzlab.com/frontiers_2.htm#N |
In which case how do you explain this pair of $7600 bookshelf speakers that is described as "AK's All Time Best Performing Domestic System" https://jamesromeyn.com/audiokinesis-speaker-models/gina/ Theres no evidence of performance provided and i see that the driver is screwed in. Linkwitz advises against this and he says that it "cannot be ignored when the goal is to design a loudspeaker of the highest accuracy." Speaker designers need to be questioned otherwise there is nothing to stop them making any claim. Ive been accused of trolling and narcississm and now youre suggesting paranoia. What next? Ive just told you my thoughts on the linkwitz pluto. Why dont you respond to that instead of using an excuse to avoid discussing the real issues? There is no such thing as falling into the trap of paranoia or suspicion. The real danger is being duped by all kinds of unproven claims which there are many of. Most of these claims are just based on the say so of the speaker companies and theres rarely any independently verified evidence. Theres every reason to be suspicious. We have to rely on the voluntary action of reviewers to obtain some measurements that ought to be provided by the manufacturers. It is shocking considering the extortionate prices. The prices clearly have no limits yet theres no evidence that the quality goes up with price as youd rightly expect. However even reviewers measurements should not be relied on. They can be biased too. Measurements can vary and we dont yet have a complete understanding of the correct measurements to use. Manufacturers must be held to account and paranoia is never an excuse to avoid doing that. The loudspeaker industry has taken us for a ride for long enough and now we must demand evidence. We deserve it. Long live the Kenjit! Kenjit~ |
Like many of us here you also seem to be searching for definitive answers and ultimate truths when it comes to loudspeaker performance. Unfortunately, there may not be any. Some one searching for answers and truths wouldn't constantly reinvent themselves and his/her position on subject matters. The word "integrity" means being the same throughout, being consistent as opposed to convenient. |
Quit while you are behind. One Linkwitz mainly discusses stamped baskets which are low cost. Two he says that if there is a resonance it must be dealt with. There are many ways to deal with resonances. Do you have proof this speaker has not dealt with them. It's painfully obvious you don't understand speaker design.
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One Linkwitz mainly discusses stamped baskets which are low cost. Two he says that if there is a resonance it must be dealt with. There are many ways to deal with resonances. Do you have proof this speaker has not dealt with them. I have circumstancial evidence by looking at the picture of the audiokinesis speaker. I have no reason to believe there is some elaborate method hidden inside the box that mounts the driver differently than the usual way. I have also seen pictures of many other high end speakers that just screw their drivers in and call it a day. I have no reason to believe otherwise with this speaker. The onus of proof is on the manufacturer. Im not the manufacturer. We have been taken for a ride long enough. The time has come for the tables to turn. They have got away with unverified claims for too long. Linkwitz says :
Why would linkwitz bother to mention this if it applies to stamped frames only? Most drivers are not stamped. Most high end manufacturers do not address these types of issues. The question for Audiokinesis is can he show us that the way he mounts his drivers is in fact the best way acoustically and that it wasnt just screwed in to save money and time and that the difference wasnt deemed unimportant? Did he do blind tests using one version with drivers screwed in and the other with drivers mounted differently? Or is he just making assumptions? What evidence is there that the audiokinesis is a better speaker within the marketplace which is full of similar boxes with drivers in 'em? You would expect better performance for that kind of money no? So where is the evidence? I dont think there is any is there? There never is. Master Kenjit~ |
(I love it...start a thread on PVC pipe, and I instantly get an ad for them. *LOL*) Also happy that y'all have Finally gotten around to what I've been doing for the past few years....although mating a scaled down Walsh driver to a PVC pipe isn't easy to do either... My only objection to the Pluto format is having the cone pointing 'up'. If you flip it over...you've just created (mostly) your very own Ohm Walsh. The radiation pattern has improved, and you're not depending on the ceiling anymore....to some degrees. Now....grab the driver and stretch it and it's cone upwards a few inches. That's a bit difficult to do, but I've gotten a handle on How. Viola', a true Walsh driver as done by HHR and as done with the original Ohm F and A units. Mine are scaled down, to reduce the amount of axial cone movement required by low frequencies. I've chosen to focus on raidal radiation with that driver.... Mounted on a 6" Schd 40 pipe, one gets 'horny....as in the 'honk' the pipe creates. Stuff it full of fibrefill, it goes away and one can always 'tune' the pipe by length vs. dia. Alternately, seal it and play with 'acousitic suspension' (remember that?); works great for a bookshelf version.... ...like the pair I'm listening to right now. Hand the low frequencies off to a sub. Active crossovers make that a snap. Active room eq ditto. OK....let's get rid of that tweeter. How about a Walsh version. Mount it above the main driver, aligning the voice coil centerlines and keeping it as close to the main as well. Time alignment: check. Phase distortion: gone. Feed it streaming source, and avoid VTA, dust, scratches....any TT I use is a radial tracker anyway.... The only thing left to do is make Eric happy. ;) I'll get around to that, soon enough. Although Dr. L had said "Ignore the room." (Yes, I've read his website....the Ohm patent...and more....) Yeah, I'm having loads of fun, doing just that.... *VBS* Regards, and Happy Memorial Day to the vets out there. Y'all have and do make this all and more possible. You deserve more than thanks; you deserve a VA that's worth your sacrifices...👍👏😃 |
kenjit, I wasn’t suggesting paranoia, only the dangers of falling into it. As a fellow audiophile, you must know it goes with the territory. Is the system power supply adequate? Is my amp powerful enough? Or good enough? Should I bi-wire? Do I need better cables? Spikes or isolation? What about Hi-Res? With no doubt hundreds more silly questions to keep us awake at night. This hobby sure has a way of getting into your blood, doesn’t it? Isn’t this also why we constantly remind ourselves to enjoy the music instead of listening to the equipment? I don’t want to comment on other designs here but just to say that Linkwitz’s attention to the minutest detail is certainly impressive in my eyes. As for your views on the Linkwitz Pluto’s, or mine for that matter, they’re both based on hearsay and initial impressions. Let’s just say somehow we have both arrived at different conclusions. "The loudspeaker industry has taken us for a ride for long enough and now we must demand evidence. We deserve it." Correct. Totally with you on that. If the manufacturers have the evidence on performance, then it could and should be shared with any potential customer. It’s already starting to happen with Harman products and as you can read on the Linkwitz site, there is almost a lifetime of shared information available there. |
As evidenced in your many posts, however, you are not remotely qualified, to evaluate how well a speaker works, or does not work just by "looking at it". You don’t appear to have even the most rudimentary understanding from where I am sitting. That may be harsh, but how else am I supposed to say it. There are any number of ways that audiokinesis could have addressed the issue, and buyers always have the option not to buy. I have circumstancial evidence by looking at the picture of the audiokinesis speaker. I have no reason to believe there is some elaborate method hidden inside the box that mounts the driver differently than the usual way. I have also seen pictures of many other high end speakers that just screw their drivers in and call it a day. I have no reason to believe otherwise with this speaker. |
Above, Kenjit is trying to bait me into defending my speaker. To anyone wondering why I don’t take up the challenge, let me point out that what Kenjit is doing is a classic behavior of a narcissist: Baiting people into defending themselves in an unwinnable argument.
Narcissists like to be on the offensive. Kenjit’s technique for turning every discussion into an argument and then winning that argument is to be contemptuous and dismissive of the other person and whatever information or evidence they present. When only his statements are valid and only his evidence is admissible, the outcome of the argument is a foregone conclusion. If anyone other than Kenjit is actually curious about the questions he raises, let me know and I will reply to you. Otherwise, imo this thread is about one of Siegfried Linkwitz’s designs, not one of mine. Duke |
Ah, you mean the old "gk" maneuver! It is often hard to tell the difference between a narcissist and a plain old bully, but most bullies are narcissists. audiokinesis2,272 posts05-25-2020 7:03pm... Kenjit is doing is a classic behavior of a narcissist: Baiting people into defending themselves in an unwinnable argument. Narcissists like to be on the offensive. |
I have built the Plutos, LXminis, and the 521-4s. Love them! The Plutos & Lxminis will "disappear" in the room. The tweeters for the Plutos are getting hard to find (I understand) but Madisound will have them if anyone does, also the complete kits. The LXminis are better, but use an electronic crossover and four channels of amplification, and so are more expensive to build. A subwoofer is a nice addition, but not absolutely necessary. People who haven't built them or heard them scoff; don't believe nonsense from uninformed and inexperienced naysayers.You are going to stuff the plastic pipes with absorbent materials (or old sweaters) and they don't ring. You can even build a subwoofer using the cardboard tubes used to make concrete columns. Be sure to build the recommended crossovers for the Plutos as they tame a peak around 10k. The only negative is that they produce a small "sound front" (as do all small speakers) but the upward facing woofers get their sound spread out by the tweeter tubes and sound much bigger than they look. They are super cost effective! Build them! Do it! They are very easy to build. |
Beautiful explanation of the benefit and implementation of the "pipe" http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_elpipeo.pdf |
@glupson There is no behavior you can discern on an internet forum especially when I only talk about speakers on here. Dukes technique has been to try to discredit everything i say by accusing me of narcissism all the while ignoring the topic being discussed. Whats the name for that? There must be an illness that corresponds to no? |