What are we going to do about Tele 12AU7 prices

" none of us can afford these prices"
Speak for yourself! 

Try Psvane from vivatubes.

What prices are you seeing?  They don't appear to be that hefty in price, at least compared to real old stock Telefunken ECC803S (12AX7) which now go for around $1300 each.  In the right circuit, these are all very long-lived tubes, so you might be able to justify the price that way.  I run ECC803S tubes in my phono stage.  Sadly, they are far from the most expensive tubes in my system.  Try pricing 348 tubes (I run 6 of these) and 349 tubes (I run 4 of these).  I also run a bunch of 310s and two 300b (these are RECTIFIERS). 

Tubes can be quite pricey.

Get a second job mozartfan.

Try Tesla.

Seems like the OP is trying to get 100% performance at 20% price which is usually wishful thinking and which most may find as a useless endeavor.

@mozartfan 

Fortunately, Tele 12au7’s aren’t the holy grail of the 12au7 family or nearly as coveted as Tele 12ax7’s. You shouldnt have to look too hard to equal or better their performance.

"We" ain't gonna do nothin'.

Here is some good info on 12AU7 tubes.

https://www.audiotubes.com/12au7.htm

plenty of good sounding quiet au7’s out there still, at fairly reasonable prices ...

My usual rant is about people buying old desirable tubes as "NOS" that are used and pulled from other equipment. Nothing wrong with that, it’s cheaper to be sure, but you can run into issues sooner or later. Who knows how much life is in a tube that "tests" well? And is the buyer aware they are buying a used tube or one which the seller can’t warrant was never used?
Thankfully, I’m down to only a few tubes that are recherche. One is the 12ax7 and I just bit the bullet, bought two new sets that I know are new, not used, from ye old days, from reliable suppliers. I’ve been through the same thing recently with rectifiers, and they are at least double if not more, than what I paid 5 years ago if you can find them. Andy at Vintage Tube is probably one of the best sources in the US, but slow by comparison to other vendors.
I use a 6h30 where I can hear the difference between the more modern Russian production tube and the old stock DR Reflector. I lucked into a fresh quad of those. I use GEC KT 66s in my vintage system, good luck finding fresh examples of those- I may go to a modern tube in those amps when the time comes, simply because that system is not as critical.
Old tubes, particularly ones in demand by audiophiles, are harder to find and more expensive. I think the investment in a truly fresh example is worth the premium, but for some, it is stupid money. And there is equipment that is voiced to sound good using modern production tubes, which takes you out of the morass. It’s just another thing. To this hobby. That makes it more of a PITA. At least know what you are buying. (I never tried the Tesla copy of the "S" grade 12ax7).

Have you tried the Sophia Electric 12AU7? I hear got things

Try the GE 12au7’s sold by Kevin at Upscale Audio.
https://upscaleaudio.com/products/ge-12au7-6189w

I use one in my Tavish Design classic phono amp. Sounds good to me and it is very quiet. 

Mozartfan call Brent Jesse and ask about Mazda tubes. Made for the French Military. The 12AU7 silver plate is similar to Tekefunkens extended top end. The 6189 is similar but a little on the warmer side.

Just a guess but I think you would like the Silver plate if you favor the Telefunken sound.

Please explain this to me. In a hobby where interconnect cables and speaker cables cost thousands of dollars someone is complaining about tubes that cost $120?

Try Psvane from vivatubes.

I had Psvane 12AX7's. = trash next to a  Tele

What prices are you seeing?

~~~~~~~~~~
$100-$1G 
For a  single,
pairs double
2G's

Hello,
No offense. You are definitely an audiophile. I usually say “buy once, cry once.” That is not the case with tubes. 

@mozartfan

Fortunately, Tele 12au7’s aren’t the holy grail of the 12au7 family or nearly as coveted as Tele 12ax7’s. You shouldnt have to look too hard to equal or better their performance

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ahhh OK, so the Tele AX beats out most every other AX
You are saying in AU's the Tele is not top dawg...
Not sure about this.....
which brand is eqluas??

I guess it depends more on your gear. What are you running and what sound qualities do you appreciate most?

Changed my mind - take 'em out and shoot 'em.

how various makes of tubes sound -- au7 ax7 6dj8 6sn7 and so on -- depends on the circuit/application, the condition of the tube

typically real german tele’s and siemens have a more spotlit character, at the expense of bass fullness - tungsrams from hungary are similar in character, they are excellent subs for tele-lovers

uk mullards are the opposite, more warmth and rolled off treble

dutch amperex/mazda are somewhere in the middle, perhaps a touch closer to the german character

american made old stock can vary as well, rca’s and philips ecg are generally well balanced, with nice extended highs, sylvania more treble centric, ge’s more rolled off

these are generalizations, specifics can vary considerably

It comes down to priorities and what one is willing to spend.  I would have to mull over whether to spend $120.00 on a single tube; others would not hesitate.  The OP is one who thinks that is excessive, and I agree with him.  This is one reason I hesitated before purchasing any tube equipment — the cost of rolling/replacing tubes.  

Some members here suggest the necessity of breaking the bank . . if you are really an audiophile, if you really care about quality sound, then of course you buy into whatever others say you need to do, either to pay or “why bother?”

I would prefer to think that a lot of people other than myself don’t have riches to invest in a hobby and that there are other worthwhile things in life that deserve our time, attention and money.  We have to balance the value of each aspect and allot our money accordingly.  I spent 37 years as a lowly social worker — my choice — and now live on a fixed income that is comfortable but certainly not lavish.  I applaud those who followed more lucrative career paths and now have ten’s of thousands of dollars to spend on a hobby.  I enjoy reading about such people’s exploits, but it’s not me, and I think I still belong.

Well said @bob540

The art of the hobby on the tube side of things is to properly match the system. Obvious I know but there is alot of terrific sounding gear that doesn't require an esoteric tube set to sound exceptional. For instance, Audio Note ships with a nice blend of new production tubes with the occasional NOS tube here or there. Shindo utilizes non traditional tubes that can be quite inexpensive. Leben sounds amazing with all new production tubes and with rare exceptions, rolling in NOS doesn't necessarily mean better....just a little different. These manufacturers voice their gear that way. Audio Research uses reasonably priced new production tubes and they achieve terrific results and besides, other than some of the unobtainable Reflektors, there are no other makes in 6h30's or KT150's.

For most of us in the hobby, NOS tubes can emphasize certain sonic traits that we either enjoy being overemphasized or more likely, certain NOS tubes help us OVERCOME the shortcomings of the gear we have chosen.  Be it vintage, new production or gear that comes equipped with questionable quality new production tube sets, there are some wonderful tubes being made today for audio purposes.

My next comment applies to me and to many others I am sure. I buy a piece of gear and let it break in, and I love it. Then I decide if its good as is, imagine how good it could/would be if I rolled in X, Y or Z NOS tubes. SOME modern gear can benefit from NOS tubes but not always. MOST vintage gear benefits from NOS tubes but not always. Listen to an old Scott 222c full of NOS Teles and an old Mullard rectifier and you wonder why we even bother to chase the grail when that 60 year old integrated sounds that good. I've connected mine to $20k+ speakers and a $10k + dac and I just shake my head. Its the cocktail of the old iron, well done circuits and the best of tube manufacturing from a time when tubes were mission critical. With that said, there is some amazing new gear being manufactured today that show just how far the art has evolved.

@petg60  

In the 12AX7 world, Tesla E83CC are nearly indistinguishable from my Telefunken 12AX7.  Detailed, quiet at hell, flat response, just utterly step out of the way.  This is in the primary position of my Zestos phono amp.  Teslas are a relative bargain.   I paid maybe $60 for the NOS pair. 

Tesla used same tooling as Teles so there comes the resemblance.
Tesla E83CC is a great tube anyway.
But pricing of ECC802S, ECC82 has gone up.

I agree with  ghasley1. Telefunken is not known for their great 12AU7 tubes at all. They are nothing special to my ears. Telefunken did make some amazing sounding 6922's and 12AX7's however.  Look for a nice pair of Amperex long plate 12AU7's for starters.

Other ECC82’s I’ve disliked for pretty much the same reason(s) I disliked Telefunken smooth/ribbed plate EC82’s in my preamp are...

- early Silver plate EI’s
- 60’s/70’s Tungsram (various)

Hope this helps.

DeKay

I like the new  Mullard 12AU7  great prices full sound.   But every amp and preamp brand is different.  I would ask who is using what tubes in your same equipment for a piece of better information on performance. 

@ghasley, This brings up a question I had previously regarding accessories provided by equipment manufacturers.  I would think that an audio equipment manufacturer would pair their equipment with tubes or power cords that sound great with that equipment . . that they know their equipment better than anyone and sample different accessory items to come up with what they think sounds best.  

Schist obviously thinks this way, as in the brochure that comes with the Freya+, they recommend using the plain power cord they supply, as it doesn’t make sense to them that a fancy power cord is going to make a difference when they consider all the contractor-grade wire supplying power in the walls of your house (of course, I swapped in a fancy power cord, just in case!)

So, wouldn’t the tubes provided with the equipment be ones that the manufacturer thinks are pretty good? For the relatively low cost of the Freya+, they could include other, more costly tubes and charge a few hundreds bucks extra, and people would pay that.  Right? 

@bob540


You are correct.

So, wouldn’t the tubes provided with the equipment be ones that the manufacturer thinks are pretty good? For the relatively low cost of the Freya+, they could include other, more costly tubes and charge a few hundreds bucks extra, and people would pay that. Right?

Many manufacturers do this very thing. In fact, Schiit used to do this…they offered the Freya with a base level tube set and an unpgraded tube set for an extra fee. At least in Schiit’s case, they are manufacturing to a price point and a basic performance goal. Their business model isn’t to make an all out assault on the state of the art, add up the cost, calculate a profit margin and then set the price. In many cases it would appear that they determine a function, determine a pricepoint and then finalize the design of their offering.

Manufacturers also must consider consistency across their desired product run. For knstance, Audio Note may desire to produce 1,000 units of the XYZ integrated over a 10 year period. Maybe it has 4 XYZ tubes inside so they must stockpile or have access to 4,000 XYZ tubes plus, say, another 5,000 to cover warranties and retubes. So, when speccing the tube they need to spec where they can access 9-10,000 of this type type. Bespoke manufacturers like Shindo or Kondo might do limited runs of 20 pieces which reduces considerably the tube stockpile required. I would venture to guess that Schiit has no plan to produce anything remotely approching a small batch of anything. If they could sell 100,000 Freyas they would. Therefore, they will always spec their gear with the widest production of tube types to ensure product consistency. No serious manufacturer is going to spec a large batch product with an extremely limited tube as in rarer NOS varietals.

Rgearding power cords, if you are a manufacturer, there are too many variables to consider. For instance, in my home with dedicated circuits, a power cord may not need to solve the power problems that might exist in someone elses home. Some manufacturers do ship with upgraded cords (Aqua) while others engineer and voice their products to a specific cord (Shindo). Manufacturers who sell through a retail channel may also recognize that their dealer network is going to sell and pair their own power cord recommendations because that is a material part of their retail business model. Talk to a competent electronics manufacturer and they will shrug their shoulders in many cases about the efficacy of aftermarket wire/cable. I use them anyway because I’ve gulped the coolaid but the guys at Schiit call BS on alot of the high end voodoo.

So, wouldn’t the tubes provided with the equipment be ones that the manufacturer thinks are pretty good? 

Yes but you can do better than pretty good.  Whether its worth the cost is up to you.

For the relatively low cost of the Freya+, they could include other, more costly tubes and charge a few hundreds bucks extra, and people would pay that.  Right?

 Schitt is about keeping costs down.  It is important to them that they not raise the price by a few hundred bucks for any part.

I had Psvane 12AX7's. = trash next to a Tele

Well, I don't know about 12AX7 since I did not use them. In my system the Psvane 12AU7s sound phenomenal. Some of the user reviews suggest that they replaced some NOS with the Psvanes and they were more than happy with that. And I am sharing based on my experience. What is the component you want these tubes in?Maybe take the bias off and give them the Psvanes a listen. Maybe the Psvane 12AU7s cost 1/5 the price of your prized Tele and sound much better...who knows unless you give them a shot. Good luck.

Que? 

They don’t seem priced higher than what other good driver tubes are.

Manufacturers also must consider consistency across their desired product run. For knstance, Audio Note may desire to produce 1,000 units of the XYZ integrated over a 10 year period. Maybe it has 4 XYZ tubes inside so they must stockpile or have access to 4,000 XYZ tubes plus, say, another 5,000 to cover warranties and retubes. So, when speccing the tube they need to spec where they can access 9-10,000 of this type type. Bespoke manufacturers like Shindo or Kondo might do limited runs of 20 pieces which reduces considerably the tube stockpile required. I would venture to guess that Schiit has no plan to produce anything remotely approching a small batch of anything. If they could sell 100,000 Freyas they would. Therefore, they will always spec their gear with the widest production of tube types to ensure product consistency. No serious manufacturer is going to spec a large batch product with an extremely limited tube as in rarer NOS varietals.

this that @ghasley describes is key to understand, and for even really excellent tube gear from an established maker, this provides an opportunity for us as singular users to experiment to find potentially better sounding tubes in our units - not that the process of doing so is without substantial effort or cost...

Good points made above that make sense once explained.  👍🏻

Fortunately, Tele 12au7’s aren’t the holy grail of the 12au7 family or nearly as coveted as Tele 12ax7’s.

@mozartfan Look into the Amperex Bugle Boys. They are less expensive. There is a military version called the 7316 which is the one to get.


As with any tube, results vary from tube to tube. Make sure you get good ones and that you can return them if noisy or microphonic.

Yes, here is Brent Jeese's breakdown of all versions of the 12AU7 and the 7316 as well. 

It's well worth the time to peruse his findings and stock.

All the best,
Nonoise