A well recorded, uncompressed, Steinway-D needs a fairly large, efficient, and expen$ive speaker to reproduce its full fire power at a realistic volume, I can not think of any $4000.00 speaker that even comes close to that, if your budget is set then try as many speakers in that price range and decide how much of a compromise are you willing to accept.
What are the best loudspeakers under $4000 to re-create lifelike piano
Over the past 4 months I've spent time with five loudspeakers. On a scale of 1-10 I'd rate them as follows in their ability (with my equipment in my room) to recreate a lifelike piano. Tekton Lore - 6.5 (great scale but tonal accuracy and clarity somewhat lacking), Kef LS50 - 7.0 (moderate scale but slightly better clarity and tonal accuracy) Kef R500 - 8.0 (great scale and very good clarity and tonal accuracy), Spatial Audio M3TurboS -8.1 (great scale and very good clarity and tonal accuracy and very smooth) Magnepan 1.7i - 9.0 (very good scale with excellent clarity and tonal accuracy - very lifelike).
In your room with your equipment, what loudspeakers are you listening too and how would you rate them for their ability to recreate a lifelife piano and if possible a few comments as to why?
In your room with your equipment, what loudspeakers are you listening too and how would you rate them for their ability to recreate a lifelife piano and if possible a few comments as to why?
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I’m a piano freak (lots of jazz) and I’m pretty critical of how piano sounds from my rig...Silverline Preludes do great piano, as do my Klipsch Heresy IIIs (so SUE me). I also have a piano in my listening room that sounds like a piano, so there’s yer reference right there. I’ve mixed many live shows with Fred Hersch, Bill Charlap, Eldar, yo mama, etc., usually using a large Steinway…2 mics, trying to avoid EQ, no compression…blah blah…and you do get to know what a great piano sound is…it’s great. However, recorded piano is 100% all over the map as far as tone goes, and if your system is working well you already know that and it doesn't matter much. |
Well, this is an audiophile forum. Anyone with hearing knows the difference between digital and analog. Frankly, the only kind of music that I can listen to in digital is tribal/ambient. I mean, my rig. I listen to whatever I find on youtube with headphones, no problem. But when I want hi-fi I want hi-fi. Analog can be terrible too sometimes, sure, but even then it is differently terrible. I can't think of another instrument that, overall, would be more difficult to record and reproduce. Only orchestra is more difficult. So, you really need good recordings and a very strong source to begin with, then perhaps some $4k speakers bought used might be okay Hi-end transports and dacs are also quite expensive. Digital cables are not created equal either. |
As said above...recording the piano accurately has been an issue for many years. Many base the sound they are after on prior recorded works which may be flawed in the first place. I would find a piano recording that you think best represents what you are looking for, then go from there. You may hit it with one recording, buy some speakers, then be frustrated with another recording. Many of the the old Riverside Jazz recordings are recorded "too hot" and exhibits distortion. Plus, many different piano models exhibit their own sound characteristics (warm, bright, etc) that record better than others. |
bdp24 they have been on my radar but I never heard a speaker mix the two types of drivers and blend it good enough to stop alerting my subconscious and disrupt the flow of music. ATC speakers are great but when it goes down to the bass it is completely obvious to me a different driver (at least the old models) snapsc I did not mean to hijack your thread I guess in my roundabout way I recommended Maggies (or Quads for that matter) for piano reproduction |
I have had my Magnepan 1.7s for over four years now. From the beginning I
was struck by how realistically it reproduced the sounds of pianos.
Then I came across Dick Olsher's evaluation of the Maggie 20.7s, and his
description gave words to the way the *.7 series Maggies do piano. I
couldn't find that review online, but here's Jonathan Valin's
description, which refers to the Olsher piece. It says, in part: OTOH, they will do acoustic bass—classical or jazz or acoustic rock—very realistically, and are simply exceptional on bottom-octave piano. (Indeed, I don’t think there is another speaker that makes a well-recorded piano sound more like an actual piano than this Maggie. In part this is because a Maggie’s planar wavelaunch, as Dick Olsher once astutely noted, is similar to the planar wavelaunch of a concert grand, giving the presentation more of the size, volume, and dispersion of the actual thing. In the case of the 20.7 it is also because their bass is so extended, finely textured, and bloomy.)Eve nthe 1.7s sound stunningly real. A stereo pair has 880 sq. in. of radiating surface, which approaches the area of some piano soundboards. Plus, the radiating pattern is similar to a soundboard. Us the other $2,000 in your budget to get one or two powered subwoofers, which extend the bass range to match a 9' concert grand. There are a lot of good powered subs available in that price range. In fact, for an extra $500, you could get the 4-sub Audiokinesis Swarm. Now *that* would energize the room. |
@shadorne - thanks for all of that. My Nord is older- probably 8 or 9 years? I had a Motion Sound? amp- not sure it is still in production. Now that I'm in Austin, it's on my list to have the amp repaired or replaced and update the Nord. I actually did like the B-3 emulator, which is mainly why I bought it at the time, but I don't play professionally, so my dabbling in electronic keyboards isn't that deep. I did play some Yamaha electric pianos at one point that had good feel and sounded pretty good. |
@whart I have the latest Nord 5. Like anthing it does some emulation better than others. If you go to the online library you can fine tune. For Rhodes emulation I prefer the Korg SV-1. The Korg SV-1 doesnt do piano as well as the Nord but it does Rhodes well and it has a weighted keyboard for a better piano like playing feel (my Nord is best suited to Organ with its waterfall keyboard) and organ drawbars) I plug the Korg SV-1 midi out into the Nord and the Nord produces the piano emulation, mellotron, farfisa and other sounds I need. The Korg does a great Oberheim too. In the end I settled on these two keyboards for the majority of needs. The split function allows me to use both keyboards sumultaneously for different instruments. Neither the Korg nor the Nord do everything well but together it is like Jack Spratt and his wife - got most everything covered to a very high level of authenticity. Short of buying and servicing all the original instruments - i would need a dozen or more keyboards - I find this solution superb. I am not sure what Nord you have tried but there has been significant improvements over the years. Also the speakers you choose to connect to tbe keyboard are critical - Genelec 8020 are very good for the nearfield sound of the listener while a keyboard amp is necessary to achieve high volumes in a band setting where you compete against drums and guitar. This is Benmount Tench setup http://fohonline.com/images/stories/16/07/current-foh/mudcrutch/tech-miking-shots/MUDCRUTCH%20BENMON... |
I love the sound of the piano that my Harbeth C7ES3s produce. Very natural and life like depending on the quality of the recording and source of course. Joni Mitchell records sound amazing, as does the David Bowie "Alladin Sane" album. So do certain Bill Evans, Oscar Petersen and Thelonious Monk recordings among others. The Harbeths can deliver like no other speaker I have owned. |
@martykl - not sure if you were referring to my earlier post about the Nord not sounding like a real piano (or a Rhodes for that matter). Just to be clear if you were referring to my post, I wasn't talking about the recording process, digital v analog, but the instrument itself. Yet, at least live, I've heard some electronic keyboards that do a pretty impressive job of emulating an acoustic piano. On the history of pianos, those old "reproducing pianos" (which were more sophisticated than a plain 'ole player piano) could let you hear Gershwin playing his compositions. Crazy. Apparently, some (or all?) have been ported over to the Disclavier. |
One more note, plus caveat. One poster was dismissive of digital piano recordings. I disagree. The odds of getting a good result are vastly higher with digital recording, IMO. My home studio isn’t set up for an acoustic piano, but I’ve been to commercial recording sessions where we made an analog recoding of an acoustic piano. It’s not easy to get it "right" and there can be a ton of debate as to what "right" actually is. I routinely get excellent results recording a piano in my home studio, using piano-teq modeled pianos, and Ivory or NI sampled pianos. The very best SQ piano recordings may be analog sessions with a great instrument, a great space, and a recording team vastly more skilled than I am, but - on average - digital recordings are preferable to me. Caveat: My sensitivities to flaws in a recording aren’t necessarily the same as anyone else’s. A squeak from a bench can (and has) ruin an otherwise beautifully recorded passage. |
If you’re willing to bust the budget (big time) and live with a limited selection of recordings, there’s a "right answer" here: The diskclavier system, which retrofits to a piano. Effectively, you get a disc-driven player piano. I think the system is owned by Yamaha, but it can be retrofitted to other brands. New Disklavier uprights from Yamaha IIRC start at about $11k or so. A small Grand is closer to $20k. My local piano store has a small, second-hand Kawai Grand with Disklavier available for $12k. That set-up, with or without a disc inserted, sounds (and plays) great. Im pretty confident that a used Disklavier acoustic piano will get the best recorded piano sound you can find at +/- $10k. If you really want to stick to traditional-ish loudspeakers, I’d go for powered ATCs. I’ve used them with a Roland digital piano and the sound is pretty damn convincing to my ear. To be clear, I typically use Yamaha powered monitors (very good sounding, themselves) for this purpose (cost considerations), but - several years back - I had a pair in my studio to audition because a friend was selling them. They’re really good, IMO. BTW, I also play back recordings that I’ve made of the Roland into my DAW (using a variety of virtual pianos, but not the Roland’s internal sound engine) via an Ohm 100/Rhythmik Subwoofer system that is digitally crossed and corrrected with Audyssey. It’s quite a different sound than I get from ATC monitors straight out of the Roland, but it’s very satisfying in its own right. |
Also, the latest Absolute Sound says that Manepan is offering a 60 day in home trial on their 0.7 mode (in their 2017 top picks supplement) ...but I don't see this on the Magnepan website. I listened to the 0.7s recently through a Parasound integrated and they sounded very clear and spacious from the lower mids up....but a sub would definitely be required |
@philjolet you make a great point. Whether you hear a piano from 15' away or through an open window it is that airiness and clarity that it is a cue that it is a piano and not a loudspeaker...hence my original question: what loudspeakers at less than the price of a piano do a good job of sounding like an actual piano?? |
I was at a restaurant sitting 20 ft from a baby grand piano and was surprised how light and airy the sound was. Of course it could be several factors affecting the sound but the point is if I heard a stereo with the same qualities I would have thought it was too light (or bright) without enough weight to the sound. bottom line is: valuable lesson learned, live music is the reference. my two cents |
Grannyring, thanks for your response. I believe you have a good memory - you described my Bolero's well. I'll probably pass on the Tektons - a can just see all that audio angst starting all over again! :-) Back to good piano recordings, FWIW I have a few that sound pretty good, but one that is better than most I've heard on my system. I'd love to hear it on others, or hear from anyone who just might have. 'American Piano Music' by Sebastian Knauler on Berlin Classic's. I quite like the way the engineers have set up their mic's to produce a lot of detail yet keeping the integrity of the sound of a live piano on the on the stage. |
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This is one of the most lifelike piano recordings I have heard. Worth picking up if you can. https://www.ebay.com/itm/David-Montgomery-the-Piano-LP-Mint-Audiophile-USA-D2D-EX-EX/181765845045?ha... |
@bdp24 - I’d settle for being 1/2 right 1/2 the time, but thank you. There was a pretty serious piano restoration house near me when I lived in Westchester, NY- they had a warehouse full of big old grand pianos, some virtually shells, others complete but in need of work. Two otherwise "identical" pianos from the same manufacturer that were set up in the same room could sound vastly different from one another, depending on how the piano was voiced, the materials used for the hammers, action, etc. I’m hardly a guru on that stuff, but I know when I was struggling to maintain an ancient Bosendorfer, the piano swami would spend hours tweaking it- it was like a voice from heaven for a week, maybe two, and then began to slide into disc(h)ord. I kind of miss having a big piano here. Gotta find a solution to that, though I don’t play very much any more. (Have a Nord, which is a decent electronic keyboard but it ain’t even close- even the Rhodes sound isn’t really very convincing (though I suppose there are downloads or tweaks one can do, I dunno). I used to steal away when I was a youngster to play the grand piano in the large school auditorium when it wasn’t in use-- it was fabulous to play in a big empty hall as a kid, and I never had to worry about the audience. :) |
Great speakers those Bolero’s. I never modified my set and owned them for 2 years I think. Loved them. Very easy to listen to with no listener fatigue at all. Great imaging and a warm inviting sound. Beautiful to look at also! Very smooth highs. Mids were a tad recessed as I recall. The DI is really a different speaker. It is more full range with much deeper and more impactful bass. The DI is more resolving of the Micro details and of the instruments themselves. They sound more live and alive. The DI does this without sounding bright or aggressive at all. The DI speakers are more dynamic and easier to drive. The Bolero speakers sound warmer and darker. They are more romantic sounding and that is certainly very appealing to many of us. The Bolero is a more refined sounding speaker. The DIs can be upgraded/modified to sound as refined. They simply need better quality crossover parts. I think the Bolero would open up more in the mids with simple XO upgrades. It would be a very easy speaker to upgrade. Very easy. I would place the XO outboard and use better wire. Don’t change the XO parts values, but just use Mills MRA or Path Audio resistors and Jupiter copper foil caps. Keep the same inductors. The Boleros will always hold a special place in my audio memory. Beautiful speaker in many ways. |
As always, whart's comments are right on. As for recordings of piano's, direct-to-disk LP's really capture the attack and decay of that instrument like no tape recording I've ever heard. A good piano recording contains an almost instantaneous huge wavefront that instrument creates when struck hard, and reveals the timbre of the instrument changing as it fades away, between notes. The different timbre of specific pianos is a product of the varying levels of the harmonic overtones of the root note---the fundamental. The change in timbre varies amongst different pianos, the relative strengths of fundamental and overtones being unique to each. IMO, to reproduce the timbre of an instrument with as wide a frequency spectrum as a piano, the loudspeaker itself requires it to have an exceptionally-even octave-to-octave balance. There is no better way to achieve that than to use one driver to reproduce as much of the piano's frequency range as possible, not chop up the keyboard amongst multiple drivers. Achieving even octave-to-octave timbre accuracy via multiple drivers and x/o filters is a very tricky, difficult thing to do. Lifelike timbral reproduction is one reason the original Quad ESL is still as highly regarded as it is. That speaker's ability in that regard remains superior to all but a small handful of competing products, regardless of price! |
grannyring, As I recall you once used Silverline Bolero's which I have and am quite fond of. As I recall you modified your crossover, I assume to pull up the 'balance' in the mid-range. I'm curious, if you can recall their unmodified sound with that of the 'Impacts', Double or otherwise. If you can, thanks. |
@grannyring It definitely seems that the DIs are well thought of. I'm guessing that there are many people not too excited about 106 pounds each...so it would be interesting to hear how the Brilliance and Electrons stack up to the DI Monitors (since @jayctoy gives them a thumbs up) ....just looking around the forum at various comments, it would seem maybe pretty well?? |
@Wart Thanks for the suggestion and I agree that most of the time the piano is mic'd in a way that both the sound and location aren't realistic @jayctoy...you make a good point...not very many people listen to 90% piano....so I'd probably add acoustic guitar and then voice reality as the next criterea...and probably many would reverse that to voice first.. |
Snapsc between the technics and tekton monito r either one are very good with piano, clarity wise they are as well superb, I played Ivan Moravec Bethoven Fifth Sonatas , the tekton was able to dissect every ambience available on the recording, the technics tonal balance and piano energy is superb, the technics was voice by a Japanese world class pianist , She is employed by Technics as Vice President of operations...I love my tektons, but if you will play 90% piano I go with technics.... |
Aside from system requirements, I find that a lot of recordings of piano to be unconvincing. Two "tells" for me- (the loss of) the harmonic overtones and their decay, and the gravitas of the deeper bass registers. There is also the issue of perspective in size and placement relative to other instruments, particularly if a large orchestra is involved. (Jazz combo recordings are easier because there are fewer instruments and they are less "dense"). Sometimes, the piano is mic’d so that it is disproportionate in scale and placement relative to other instruments. One record that I find pretty convincing (though it may not be your cup of... musically) is: https://www.discogs.com/Amina-Claudine-Myers-Salutes-Bessie-Smith/release/7460514 (The original on Leo, not the audiophile reissue). This record sounds close to a real piano in my room, using Avantgarde Duos supplemented by a pair of 15" subwoofers. I have had concert sized pianos in my homes over the years and know the sound of a "real" piano, both from the driver’s seat and from an audience perspective. The difficulty is generally ascribed to the range of the instrument, but I think it’s more than that- timing, harmonics, power to deliver bass energy and, in my estimation, difficulty in finding convincing sounding recordings. |
@jayctoy. So far most comments have been that it is hard to do a piano. In my mind this is a good test for an "affordable" loudspeaker for anyone considering a new speaker. The DI and DI Monitor are getting great write ups for their overall realism. As a follow up. Are you saying that the DI Monitors when used with a sub have the scale to do a good piano? Also, please comment on their clarity....why...as I noted above, it's really hard to do clear piano. |
I have been an audiophile for 50 years, during this time I have never heard speakers that can faithfully reproduce the sound of a live grand piano. I have heard some pretty impressive systems (read very expensive, $0.5 million and more) during this time, I can honestly say none faithfully reproduced the sound of live piano. OK, some came close; Magico Q7, Wilson Alexandria etc. Hope I don’t sound too cynical, just my 2 cents worth. Working within sensible budget restraints ($4k or less); I am a fan of Yamaha NS1000M speakers and my current favorite, Gale GS401A (see my previous post on the Gales). Both speakers look good and are very dynamic. But, do they reproduce grand piano faithfully? No, but they do sound nice and do a reasonable job. I like "s1nn3r" and "newbees" answer to the OP; either buy a used piano or fantasize. I like the "fantasize" idea; isn’t that what we do all the time as audiophiles? |
A used pair of Duntech Princesses or Dunlavy SC-IVs (or, if you can knock the price down a little, Duntech Sovereigns or Dunlavy SC-Vs). Not the last word in transparency, but these speakers get the timbre and frequency response right (including the lower registers) and, with the right amplification, can get a lot of the dynamics too. Also can give you a sense of the size and scale of the instrument. Terrific on all genres of music as well. Still among my favorite speakers after all these years. |
Tannoy........ Vandy and Maggie aren’t the only ones around here with coherence, tonality, truth of timbre, dynamics and scale. Incredible with voice as well. Play well with most all genres. Think used Turnberry SE or possibly Kensington SE. Perhaps stretch for a great deal on a new pair of Turnberry GR. Best. |
You want coherence, scale and timbral accuracy for piano reproduction, and that's a tall order for moderately priced speakers. We did extensive auditioning last spring - have to admit that we hated the LS50s (didn't go low enough + clangy on upper range on piano, then they were hard and glassy on massed strings besides ). I know thousands love these speakers but I cordially hated them. Our favorites were the GoldenEar Triton 2+ at $3500 (and 3+ at $2500), B&W CM10s at $4500. We're buying the GoldenEars - great driver integration, coherent top to bottom, give you the scale of the music, easy to drive and place. Past experience tells me Vandies and Maggies also excel in coherence and scale. We both play piano, go to live concerts and have a Steinway in the studio. |
