What are the audio differences you hear with turntable Mats.

@atmasphere 

That makes sense, if by that you mean, if it sounds better, then you can make appropriate adjustments to optimize it. 
 

I have to admit, I am very shy about throwing my turntable out of perfect adjustment. My audio guy adjusts it.

One of the other good things of Acrylic platter mat's is you can use them to set your Anti skate.

Interesting. I wonder if an Acrylic mat without the adhesive would be an improvement over the stock 1200g mat

@aberyclark The stock Technics mat is junk IMO/IME. So yes.

@ghdprentice While I agree with your statement, I've found in practice that once you hear a mat that's working right, its pretty obvious.

Here's a tip to know if that's the case: when you set the stylus on the rotating LP, turn the volume all the way down and see if you can hear the stylus in the groove. If the platter pad is doing its job it will be hard to hear; easy to hear if the platter pad is out to lunch.

Just a caution when comparing mats… they must be exactly the same thickness or the tone arm must be adjusted to compensate for the additional thickness… or I guess thinner is possible. If you are not carefully adjusting your tt then the outcome may be pretty random.

Interesting. I wonder if an Acrylic mat without the adhesive would be an improvement over the stock 1200g mat

@aberyclark Yes!

As you might know, acrylic can be different durometer (hardness) values depending on how its made. What you want is the same hardness as vinyl so you get maximum coupling of vibration from the LP to the platter pad without reflections.

The Oracle platter pad is the best one I've seen and we used it our our Atma-Sphere 208 turntables while they were being made (we stopped after the Technics SL1200G was introduced). It must be bonded to the platter to be effective; it has a permanent sticky back for that purpose. So if you use it on something like the Technics SL1200, which has 3 screws holding the platter to the motor, the screws can't be installed otherwise you can't remove the platter!

So you have to think about the installation prior to actually doing it 😉

I recommend doing something besides the platter pad to damp the platter as well. One of the reasons our 208 was so quiet, like the SL1200G, is both platters are damped. This really helps bass impact but makes the mids and highs smoother too.

@atmasphere Is there an Acrylic mat that you have had good luck with?

I tried felt, cork, rubber and settled on Acrylic, to me Acrylic sounded better to my ears.  Now I don't use a platter mat as I upgraded my turntable to a MoFi Deck

I never heard a difference in mats with a Rega TT, either a P3 or P8.

@drbond 

You really have to do the audition against a decent platter pad. If all the ones you used were so much junk you probably would not have heard a difference. Those machines are fine for hearing the difference.

I never heard a difference in mats with a Rega TT, either a P3 or P8. Perhaps the Linn is different though. Overall, if you’re looking for a change, a mat probably is not going to be a big difference: probably down at the bottom of the list along with power cables.

heavier resonance damping mats sound better 

@joscow sorry for the interruption of the thread. 

@atmasphere I found one from Cartridge Clinic off of Feebay, but still searching. Thanks

@danmar123 If that was my machine I'd have an arm board machined of solid aluminum, same thickness and alloy as the plinth.

@atmasphere the plinth of the table is cast aluminum, so if the Corion tonearm base sits flat in the plinth, you think I would need a aluminum ring? Or do you think Billet would be better?

@danmar123 It might be, particularly if the entire plinth is Corion and there isn't a separate arm board. It would be even better if the whole thing were laminated to a substantial aluminum or steel sub-plate so the two dissimilar materials could rob energy from each other. The metal sub-plate would also give the Corian some stability, something it lacks on its own.

@atmasphere what I've been reading is that Corion is a good choice, this is why I asked the question in the first place.

@danmar123 If the arm board is made to be non-resonant and so is less resonant then the plinth, the two will not vibrate the same way (of course, ideally both should be inert). This will allow vibration in either to be more easily transduced.

@atmasphere that’s the answer I was looking for. I have a 2 piece aluminum arm board now, I’m going to look for a billet aluminum arm board now.

Thank you!

Now if I can find a suitable tone arm base material, I'd be a happier camper.

@danmar123 It should be the same material as the plinth that supports the platter bearing. It should also be as rigidly coupled to that plinth, to the base of the platter bearing, as possible. This will reduce coloration; the idea is that if there is vibration, the platter bearing and the base of the arm are moving in the same plane so as to reduce the arm's ability to pick up that vibration.

The BA is a good, neutral-sounding mat, the best I’ve found for my Technics and I’ve tried an embarrassing number.

Just my $.02, I'm a PROUD owner of the new Boston Audio Mat on my Technics GAE with an SME 309 arm. I've tried Herbie's way excellent, cork & rubber & Teac paper mats. All as you know have their own signature, but the BAM brings the best out of my deck!

Now if I can find a suitable tone arm base material, I'd be a happier camper. Always going down the Rabbit hole........ 

Late to the party. Linn likes light mats - good for suspension tables anyway. I have the 3mm Funk Firm Achromat that seems to quiet things down quite a bit. Recently, I also put my modded Linn on homemade decouplers of ball bearing in wooden cups. Between the two tweaks, my playback has a quieter background and some improved detail and dynamics. I like both individually and even more so together.

@bdp24 I’d just like to say how glad I am I spent the money for a Groovetracer Rega counterweight. The only way to get a Cadenza Mono to balance otherwise was to have the Rega weight half off the end of the tonearm, and a .50 calibre lead ball taped into the resulting hollow!

As for TT mats, I tend to think that if Alastair Robertson_Aikman thought his inbuilt mat was best I should believe him. I certainly don’t need the PTSD of getting out the USB microscope every time I take a mat off or put it back on, and surely if the VTA isn’t set precisely the same way each time, it is going to be very hard to make comparisons.

No_regrets, I probably shouldn’t have mentioned the L07D. In original form, the stainless steel mat was referred to by Kenwood as a “platter sheet”. It’s integral to the platter and constitutes a significant fraction of total platter mass. The direct drive system is tuned to include the 5 lb mass of the platter sheet, which is why I asked the machinist for a copper mat of approximately the same weight. Very different from choosing a mat for a belt drive LP12.

I've been using the Boston Audio/Sakura mat for 15 years now, I just switched to Soundeck PM Black.  I use the HRS record weight as well with both mats.  For me, the Soundeck PM Black gives me a bit more separation and energy, it's subtle, but there for me.

@lewm  Yes, I hope I like the Boston Mat too 😀

It seems like you are pretty impressed by the copper mat too.  However, I'm concerned about adding too much weight to my LP12.

I like the fact that the Boston Mat only weighs roughly 1 pound, so I'm hoping that won't mess with my suspension on the LP12.

I'm curious.... what sonic improvements do you typically hear with the Boston Mat vs just using the typical Linn felt mat?

Thank you and best wishes to all,

Don

Atmasphere’s explanation makes perfect sense, and that’s where I’d begin if I were a beginner. But with his hypothesis as a model there is still wiggle room.

@lewm Its theory, not hypothesis... 😁

@no_regrets I have read that the Vertere Mat and also the Ringmat go great with ur Linn

No_regrets, I do hope you like the Sakura/Boston mat. I auditioned about half a dozen after market mats before I settled on that one. But I do not claim to have a huge and comprehensive experience with the myriad of available choices. Also, I have 5 turntables to feed. Three of them have the graphite mat. On a 4th TT I use an SAEC SS300 metal mat (Victor TT101) and on the 5th I use a solid copper mat. This is the Kenwood L07D which came with a 5 lb stainless steel mat; I had a 5 lb copper mat made to replace the SS. I hate to admit It, but the change to copper made a big difference on the L07D, I think because copper is a superior EMI shield.

With regards to mats. Different is easy, better not as much. Analog playback systems have so much individuality built into them its hard to predict the outcome, or what the listener will prefer. You will change the sound, now whether you like it or not is a different question. 

@lewm , thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences with me and others. I think I will keep a watchful eye out for a used BA The Mat.  If I can't find one in a few weeks, I'll order a new one to give it a try 😁

Best wishes,

Don

For those looking for a great reflex clamp, don’t forget about the two made by BDR (Black Diamond Racing): a solid 1-pc., and a 2-pc.. Made of Carbon Fiber, with 1/4-20 threading. They show up on USAM used every once in a while for about $150.

no_regrets, I do use a both a weight (about 250g) and a clamp (SOTA) with Boston Audio mats (two different turntables).  However, with a bare platter surface that is concave or dished as mentioned above, I don't know how that would work out as the graphite is not very flexible, if at all flexible, so it would not readily conform to a concave platter surface. And there would be a remote danger of the BA mat shattering if too much pressure was applied at the spindle over a concave surface.

@wrm57, Please accept my most sincere apologies.  I have suffered 5 major strokes and there are times when I don't comprehend/understand or process thoughts very well.  It can be very frustrating to me as well as to others... so for that I am very sorry.

I have read your posts and I greatly appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts and experiences with me and others.

When I read your previous post, you had written...."It works perfectly well with weights and clamps other than the one made by Oracle. Personally, I like the Origin Live Gravity One (out of many I’ve tried), which weighs almost nothing but sounds terrific on the Lenco."   To my mind, that tells me that you have successfully used the Oracle mat perfectly well with several "weights and clamps" but you prefer the Origin Live Gravity One which weighs almost nothing ( but yet, it is still a record clamp/weight, is it not?)  I did not see anywhere in your post where you specifically said that the Oracle Mat does not need to be used with a record clamp/weight.

So, with my challenged brain... I guess I didn't understand that what you may have meant to say is that because the Gravity One weighs almost nothing, that it would be the same as not using a clamp/weight at all.  Is this what you were implying?

It is helpful to know that a record weight/clamp is also not needed to be used on the BA mat.  Thank you for that.

Please forgive my "slowness" in understanding and don't give up on sharing your thoughts and experiences with us, as I and others do indeed appreciate your contributions.

Best wishes to all,

Don

Frank Smillie of Groovetracer renown (he makes excellent Rega upgrade parts. I visited his shop in San Jose, and was very impressed.) machines a turntable platter for Rega tables in both Acrylic and Delrin versions. Here’s what he has to say about Delrin:

"Delrin is considered the material of choice for record platters by the many of today’s high end turntable manufactures (that may be debatable). There are several reasons for this but the primary consideration is that it shares many of the same properties of the vinyl record. It also carries more mass than the majority of high performance thermoplastics which is important in maintaining speed stability."

"The sonic benefits include well balanced frequency response with no loss in dynamics. Upper frequencies are better defined which in turn allows more inner detail to shine through. The improved presentation of instruments within the soundstage provides better imaging."

Harry Weisfeld made platters for his HW-19 and TNT models in aluminum (with a layer of lead bonded to it’s underside), solid Delrin, an aluminum/Delrin "sandwich", a couple different stainless steel/Delrin sandwiches, a solid Acrylic version, and finally back to aluminum. Delrin became too expensive to manufacture (Frank Smillie again: "The challenge in using Delrin is that it is quite expensive in raw material form and requires extra attention during the manufacturing process."), so VPI made the switch to solid Acrylic. The VPI Acrylic platters are now almost worthless---no one wants them, while the Delrin versions (especially the stainless steel/Delrin TNT-5 version) are very much in demand.

Max Townshend chose Delrin for the LP interface/top layer of the platter on his Rock Elite table, and if I’m not mistaken so did SOTA (right?). I went to a great plastics supply/machining shop in Portland to have armboards made for my VPI Aries and HW-19 tables, and compared raw Acrylic to Delrin. The Delrin was substantially less resonant (when struck Acrylic "rang" quite a bit more than did Delrin), and far greater in mass.

Is anyone making a Delrin platter mat? I’ll bet the Graphite mat is close in nature to Delrin.

@no_regrets , as stated in my previous post, no, you do not need a clamp on Oracle mat! I’ve been using one for 12 years, so I should know. The concavity is not that deep. Any weight will suffice, even the featherwight Gravity One that I prefer. Nor is a clamp needed on the BA mat, which I have had for 3 years. Cannot say it any plainer than this. I’m getting the sense that people just aren’t reading my posts!

I might be wrong, but my impression is you need to use a record clamp with the Oracle mat due to the concaved nature of it.  
 

Does anyone know if you need to use a record clamp with the BA The Mat?

Thank you,

Don

Good to know that the BA mat is still available. I missed that point in your earlier post. I think Chakster also bought one from Sakura.

@lewm , 

the now unavailable Boston Audio graphite mats

The BA graphite mat is available from Sakura systems, as I said earlier in this thread.

https://www.sakurasystems.com/mat.html

Atmasphere’s explanation makes perfect sense, and that’s where I’d begin if I were a beginner. But with his hypothesis as a model there is still wiggle room. Which is to say there are other materials that approach the suitability of acrylic and which might be preferred after audition. Whether you also use a clamp vs a weight and the mass of any chosen record weight, these also affect results. I have never liked rubber or felt mats. I do like the now unavailable Boston Audio graphite mats which probably are similar in hardness to acrylic, and yet I don’t like acrylic. I guess if there were only one best answer to this question, we would all be using the same record mat, and there would not be such a big market for such a wide variety of them.

My direct experience of a substantial improvement over a Felt Mat on a Linn Deck has been when a 5mm Thick Forex Foam Mat was used.

Forex Foam is a mat made from the same material used for the Commercial offered DAT Mat.

On the day the Forex Foam was selected, there was approx' £1000 in value of Mats to be demonstrated, with a few Mats retailing between £300-£500.

The Forex Foam Mat as part of a Group Buy and one of Four Mats purchased for the GB (2 x 3mm and 2x 5mm) had a cost of £30 for all four mats purchased.

It is well worth looking to acquire a Mat made of this material, as the cost will not be a concern, and the end result of using it, might just be what is desired.

It’s an interesting question.

I’m no expert but seems to me the mat helps isolate the stylus from any physical noise or vibration that might be transmitted by the motor to the stylus while playing. Just the way I look at it. I suspect felt pads are popular for that reason.

@no_regrets , My Nantais Reference Lenco II has the Oracle mat adhered to the platter. Jean said it was the best-sounding of the many he tried. It works perfectly well with weights and clamps other than the one made by Oracle. Personally, I like the Origin Live Gravity One (out of many I’ve tried), which weighs almost nothing but sounds terrific on the Lenco.

@atmasphere 

The Oracle acrylic mat sounds interesting to me.  

However, when I read a description of it, it said ".....The acrylic mat is machined with a slightly concave surface which helps flattening of the record more efficiently when using the Oracle record clamp."

I don't use a record clamp with my turntable as it is not recommended (it's an LP12) so I wonder how this mat might work with it having the concave surface with out using a record clamp?  Any thoughts or ideas you could share with me?

Thank you and best wishes,

Don

What audio differences can one expect with different mats? Felt, rubber and acrylic.

@joscow The platter pad has two jobs: damp resonance in the LP when its being played and damp the platter as much as possible. When damping the LP, it must not reflect energy back. To this end, it has to have the same durometer (hardness) as the LP. If softer or harder, the platter pad will have a ’signature’; some will be bright and others dull and the bass is affected as well.

An easy way to tell how effective your platter pad works is to play an LP with the volume down and just listen to the stylus in the groove. If its audible that’s bad. It should be really quiet. When you can hear it, that’s the LP resonating a bit- in essence, ’talking back’ to the cartridge.

You’ll find that damping the platter has a nice effect on the presentation as well- better bass, smoother and more resolved mids and highs.

Felt, rubber and bare metal don’t cut it. The best commercial mat I’ve seen so far is made by Oracle. Its acrylic; acrylic can be made to match the hardness of vinyl.

A platter mat is like subtle seasoning in your food. All types are subtly different from one another, and you as the diner need to figure out what’s best in your system.

I’ve been through myriad mats on my Technics SP10R, including the stock rubber, Oyaide BR-One, Origin Live (love their Gravity One stabilizer), Ortofon cork/rubber, both thicknesses of Acromat, the Herbie’s mat, and others. All sound notably, sometimes extremely, different, emphasizing or suppressing different frequencies. The one I settled on is Boston Acoustics Mat2 from Sakura Systems. To me it is the most neutral of them. But I do think the preference is likely to be turntable specific, so you have to experiment.

If you are using a Linn mat and like the sound you may be interested in what is said to be an improvement on such.

https://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/collaro_red_felt_e.html

DeKay

I concur with avanti, based on personal experience. I settled on Hexmat Yellow Bird on acrylic platter of Clearaudio, brings out more details yet not harsh and fatiguing.