LOL, I'll bet I gotcha on that Title! ;) BTW, I put this thread under "Tech Talk" category as it involves the system physically, not tangentially.
More seriously, two question survey:
1. Do you think designer fuses are A) a Gift to audiophiles, or B) Snake Oil
2. Have you ever tried them? Yes or No
In the tradition of such questions on Agon, I'll weigh in as we go along... Feel free to discuss and rant all you wish, but I would like to see clear answers to the questions. :)
Just to mention the AC fuse in some units, such as my former all tube Woo Audio headphone amp, is located externally where the power cord enters the component. Ditto speaker fuses in my Fultons, external. In my previous player, the world’s most thoroughly modded Oppo 102, I bipassed the fuse with a pure copper slug, figuring what the hell, I’ve already broken any warrantee I might have had. 😛
I am a fuse adopter, with a digital front end. After the improvement, I replaced the fuse in my integrated. (this is beginning to sound like a 12 step program).
As far as voiding a warranty, come on. I grew up in a household where most of the work was done by ourselves, from repairing cars to opening up HiFi gear and TVs and replacing fuses, tubes, dials, belts, etc. If we couldn’t get it to work, then we called on a neighbor and if that didn’t work, we called an electrician, who was the guy down the street or a friend in the business.
Hi Doug, To your question, the stand-mounted Aerial LR5s in the first two photos are the new speakers and the floor-standing Aerial Model 9s in the later photos are my former speakers. Unfortunately, the LR5 photos did not come out well so I plan to repost new photos soon.
I have enjoyed Mike Kelly designs from back to his A/D/S days (I owned several of those) and was happy to own the 9s for over 10 years. After consulting with Kelly, I have found the Model LR5s along with dual SW12 subs to be superior overall to the Model 9s. I am not sure what intended buyer Kelly designed the LR5s for but they were used as sort of a HT speaker because of their dynamics and ability to play powerfully. However, the crossover components and drivers are equivalent to the best used by Aerial and the boxes weigh about 105 pounds each! Kelly believes the LR5s are about as good as it gets from 40Hz and up, with the exception of those who like ribbon tweeters (as in the 20T). I like the wider dispersion of a dome tweeter (vs. a ribbon) and the dome used by Aerial is a good one, which is why I opted for LR5s instead of the 20Ts.
The main benefit of the LR5 over the Model 9 is bass control. The LR5s are sealed box (i.e., acoustic suspension) speakers and the roll-off down to 40Hz is better controlled and more natural sounding to me than with ported bass reflex speakers, even good ones like the Model 9s. The improved bass also improves the rest of the frequency range. The dual SW12 subs can be tailored to provide just the right amount of low bass extension and slam, and they do it better than most large speakers alone by controlling the room better, not that I had a particular problem with the room. Adding the second sub was a significant improvement over having just one. I am considering adding a third SW12 sub on the other side of the room.
Just to be clear, I'm not advocating copper slugs. That will have to be dealt with in the COPPER SLUG AS REPLACEMENT FOR AFTERMARKET FUSES, WHICH ARE DEBATED AS EFFICACIOUS, OR AS SNAKE OIL forum. ;)
Possible reasons changing fuses could make a difference: - fuse socket is contaminated. Metal to metal junctions become semiconductors over time. R&Ring the fuse a couple of times can restore metal to metal contact. - fuse element has degraded over time from ’near misses’ in thousands of heatings and coolings
IMO, the #1 reason ’fuses have sound’ is lack of rigor on the part of evaluator. There are 1001 other things that introduce ’differences’ far more audible than a couple of mΩ. See WinterBlues Unless the DUT can be changed without the CBLF’s knowledge, AFTER a clean contact / standard fuse baseline is established, and note changes concomitant with either device when unknowingly substituted, then it’s just fantasy.
All of what you've mentioned has been gone over many times and disputed by those who have tried fuses. Their accounts are right here on these forums for you to go over and they are rather detailed. To go over them again would be fruitless as this is a thread for those who've tried them and know they work and it shouldn't be derailed by those who don't believe in their efficacy.
I suggest you try it for yourself or start a thread denouncing fuses and have at it with like minded individuals.
ieales Possible reasons changing fuses could make a difference: - fuse socket is contaminated. Metal to metal junctions become semiconductors over time. R&Ring the fuse a couple of times can restore metal to metal contact. - fuse element has degraded over time from ’near misses’ in thousands of heatings and coolings
IMO, the #1 reason ’fuses have sound’ is lack of rigor on the part of evaluator. There are 1001 other things that introduce ’differences’ far more audible than a couple of mΩ. See WinterBlues Unless the DUT can be changed without the CBLF’s knowledge, AFTER a clean contact / standard fuse baseline is established, and note changes concomitant with either device when unknowingly substituted, then it’s just fantasy.
>>>>High comedy on Audiogon. 🤡 It appears there are more folks following the wrong....you know...
If upgraded fuses I purchased were the SR Black. Upgraded to the SR Blue when they made them user friendly (immediately better without 72 hour break-in of the Blacks). My audio engineer friend and manufacturer of cables who has the same equipment as me, thought one better (if it can be made the same but cheaper is his motto) installed 5 amp circuit breakers instead of buying 8 amp SR blue fuses for our amps. About the same result but his was infinitely less expensive. Until I demonstrated a littlefuse versus the SR Blue, he didn't believe it.
So, a huge Yes on fuses. Plus, they are directional from the start, no waiting needed to hear the difference.
P.S. The same naysayers and trolls are affecting this forum as the SR Red/Black/Blue forums. Too bad. Audiophiles should try the fuses before making up their mind.
Elizabeth, I use the Walker Talisman, an expensive pair of magnets but easy to use, on every CD and DVD I play. The results are obvious when the disc has been played through and magnetism adheres to it. I also use it on LPs but I'm lazy about that since it takes longer to sweep the record on and off motions 5 times to complete the demagnetization. Thanks for your informed comments. It's a big relief from the naysayers.
It
might be interesting to see how many fuse Skeptics and Adopters own
digital or analogue front ends. Could we add this to the survey?
I'm a skeptic with both analog and digital front ends, but I'm not a naysayer. I learned long ago not to judge the sound of anything without listening. Similarly, I won't buy a car I haven't driven, or buy a suit I haven't tried on first.
I'll probably experiment with a fuse or two sometime. It just isn't high on my priority list.
Meanwhile, everyone here should be able to discuss their experiences without some of the acrimony that results, imo.
@geoffkait "The fusible element is comprised of thick film gold that is deposited on
a thermally and electrically insulated substrate. A complete range of
fusing values is achievable by precisely controlling the fusible element
print thickness and geometry. Thick film silver termination pads are
placed at each end of the thick film fusible element. The fusible
element is completely covered with an arc suppressive glass."
That's exactly the material I used to R&D and produce. Beyond the full spectrum of thick film, we also made thin (metallorganic and organometallic) film, gold powders, glass (sounds like a single item, but we had too many formulations to list or discuss here), dielectric tapes, solder, etc. Most fun at work I ever had, and a fair number of us were audiophiles.
Whose thick film did you use, and what means did you use to apply them? Your substrate was alumina or something else?
I was quoting an article on the subject of the then new NASA fuses. I mentioned in my post it was an excerpt of an article. ‘‘Twas not I. My association with NASA ended long before that article was published.
I absolutely hear a difference upgrading fuses, it makes a HUGE benefit to the sound for relatively little money. I've loved the Hi Fi Tuning fuses, but haven't tried the Synergistic Fuses yet.
@ fleschler - Was the 5A circuit breaker you tried inplace of the fuse a thermal or magnetic circuit breaker? Is the SR Blue the best sounding fuse you have tried?
I realize I’ve posted some of these before somewhere along the line but maybe it’s good to post them again. We’ll see. 😬 Without further ado here are some suggestions for further improving any newfangled high end fuse. Or any stock fuse.
1. Cryogenically treat the fuse. The cryo lab (if he’s a nice guy) will cryo it free.
2. Alternative to cryoing - Freeze the fuse in the home freezer, 2-4 Days recommended, let thaw in main refrigerator section for 4 hours.
3. Apply contact enhancer to end caps. If you already have established correct fuse direction be sure to maintain correct orientation.
4. Alternative to contact enhancer: paint both encapsulated with permanent violet/purple marker.
5. Wedge a thin slice of natural cork under the fuse holder as counter vibration measure.
6. Make a “tent” out of mu metal and cover fuse and fuse holder. Since mu metal is VERY CONDUCTIVE cover both sides and all edges of the mu metal with adhesive paper or vinyl.
7. Apply WA Quantum Chip for Fuse to the body of the fuse. WA Quantum Chips are still available from distributors such as VH Audio. WA Quantum Chips come in various flavors for capacitors, inductors/transducers, speakers, breaker box, cables, etc.
8. It goes without saying the fuse, even if it’s a stock fuse, will sound significantly better in one direction than the other.
geoffkait - It goes without saying the fuse, even if it’s a stock fuse, will sound significantly better in one direction than the other.
How about you contact me privately, so we can begin communication regarding your ability to hear a significant improvement when a stock fuse is oriented in the opposite direction.
In case I haven't made it known previously in this forum, I have conducted double blind testing using the Audio by Van Alstine ABX Comparator (see review), and I passed the testing in regards to all components and cabling with the exception of amps that were level matched.
Thus, I have no interest in discussion of blind testing, for it is a moot point to me. My interest is whether a person has used fuses and whether they think a fuse is a gift to the community or snake oil.
I also asked whether a person is a fuse skeptic or fuse adopter what is their primary source, digital or analogue.
I will add that I wish to avoid discussion of other debated products here, such as Machina Dynamica products. Please save such discussion for other boards. I am not making any declaration about such products here in this thread. I do not wish to put this thread into a quagmire about debate of other products. I appreciate the creativity in additional tweaks of fuses, but I do not wish for that to become the primary discussion. Thank you.
Just to be clear nobody has mentioned Machina Dynamica products on this thread including your humble scribe. i can certainly understand the OPs fear, however. LOL Quagmire like fuse threads aren't quagmires. Give me a break.
Apologies, geoffkait; I thought that the Quantum Chip was a Machina Dynamica product. I did a bit of searching and see it is not. Thank you for pointing that out.
My goal is to curate the thread to prevent as many tangential discussions as possible. I have no problem with such things being discussed, but imo if they are discussed here it becomes a quagmire to the primary objective of seeing the results of the survey and discussion pertaining solely to the efficacy of fuses.
@douglas_schroeder - To answer your direct question, I am a fuse skeptic and I only use a digital source.
Thanks for including the reference to your blind testing review. Very interesting. There seems to be lots of confounding of variables in your test method. The take away of a audible difference between system A and system B is supported by your write up. I didn't follow the conclusions of differences in the components that make up the systems.
I can ask specific questions on that review site so as not to redirect your thread.
douglas_schroeder My goal is to curate the thread to prevent as many tangential discussions as possible. I have no problem with such things being discussed, but imo if they are discussed here it becomes a quagmire to the primary objective of seeing the results of the survey and discussion pertaining solely to the efficacy of fuses.
Very noble. But you already said that. Nobody is creating a quagmire. Hel-loo!
mpheaven I don't know which type of circuit breaker my friend used in his amps. I've tried several low end brand fuses while I waited for the SR Black. The Black was superior even without breaking in (72 hours). The SR Blue was superior immediately upon insertion and got better over time, not as dramatically but better overall. I have another pair of the same amps built 10 years ago that need upgrading. I will install the circuit breakers in them. I will be able to then compare the SR Blue and circuit breaker amps head to head. I bet they will be close.
As to new or old stock fuses by Littlefuse and Buss, I couldn't tell the difference. Georgehifi always says the old fuse oxidized and is weaker than a new fuse. Well, I tried new in place of old (15+ year old) stock fuses and I couldn't tell the difference.
Yes, I tried it in both directions and neither sounded good. Maybe if I applied some Total Contact it would have sounded better but why waste a good product on a mediocre product (mediocre for audio purposes, excellent for electrical safety purposes).
I don't know the vintage of the new Littlefuse and Buss fuse. They may have been several years old sitting in my drawer. I'm sure you will say that they should have been newly made to sound better. You'll write anything to discredit me.
Anything to discredit "snake oil'ers" just to give the gullible audiophiles out there something to think about, and to read others opinions, before they part with more than $100 for a fuse which the sound of is no better than a quality $2 fuse.
Interesting post about aftermarket fuses this week from a designer-manufacturer of well-regarded DACs, amplifiers, and other electronics,
"Depending the type of product we use transformers in a range between 15 and 30 VA. It means that the primary windings are as thin as monkey hair and will have a length of approx. 100 meters. The resistance of this primary copper winding is about 60-90 Ohms so what will be the effect of one centimeter of fuse wire compared to the primary copper wire."
I suspect this viewpoint may be considered too simplistic and unenlightened by those savvy folks who believe in the mystical effects of that "one centimeter of fuse wire." OTOH, aftermarket fuse manufacturers are probably already thinking about the potential profit on fuses made from beeswax, monkey hair, unobtainiam end caps, and (pick your color) paint.
Everyone's entitled to speculation. It doesn't mean they're right. I have helped a few well known manufacturers in regard to their speculation. After listening, they "revised" their speculation. :)
I don't see unanimity on fuses among manufacturers.
That is true, but the ones I've seen that say there's a difference, actually heard the difference, whereas the ones that say there are no differences, say it without benefit of hearing it for themselves.
It seems that false equivalency can be had in all manner of fields.
....but the ones I've seen that say there's a difference, actually heard the difference, whereas the ones that say there are no differences, say it without benefit of hearing it for themselves...
Of course though there are also ones that say there's a difference, yet are unable to reliably make the same statement once subjected to any kind of objective test. So there "saying" isn't really long lived.
What's it like to go through life doubting everything unless it's objectively tested? My neck would sure be sore looking over my shoulder all the time.
With the stock market now falling fuse skeptics will really be against them. Anyone whose primary objection to a tweak is monetary will never try it if their portfolio is losing. The tweak loses efficacy proportionate to their losses in the Market. ;)
But, hey, you can reduce your expenditures on components perhaps 10%, from $5K to 4,500. That will really help you achieve your dream system in this difficult time, as opposed to buying a $50 fuse.
dougie says "But, hey, you can reduce your expenditures on components perhaps 10%, from $5K to 4,500. That will really help you achieve your dream system in this difficult time, as opposed to buying a $50 fuse."
Not to rain on your parade, but for some of us this is just fun. I don’t dream about audio systems, my dreams are a little deeper. On the other hand, if your dream is cycling through stereo equipment I hope you have achieved nirvana.
dougie says "With the stock market now falling fuse skeptics will really be against them. Anyone whose primary objection to a tweak is monetary will never try it if their portfolio is losing. The tweak loses efficacy proportionate to their losses in the Market. ;) "
I’m really hoping you were hitting the sauce when you wrote this, so rude.
Geoff, clearly something is up with you since al wrote his piece stating that wolf was a valued member of A'gon. Your posts have taken on a new attitude. I truly enjoy your don rickles of A'gon routine, but he had $30M when he met his maker, its a little unclear what you are getting out of all of this.
kosst_amojan I can promise you that I can use $50 to improve almost any piece of gear in a more useful way than a fuse ever could. It's not a matter of cash. It's a matter of brains, and fuses are brainless.
“A brain is a terrible thing to have.” Another acid eater pipes up.
jetter Geoff, clearly something is up with you since al wrote his piece stating that wolf was a valued member of A’gon. Your posts have taken on a new attitude. I truly enjoy your don rickles of A’gon routine, but he had $30M when he met his maker, its a little unclear what you are getting out of all of this.
jitter, I always value your posts and hang on every word. 😛
All the tired horses in the sun, how am I gonna get any riding done?
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