We Need A Separate Forum for Fuses

Oh and cleeds, you might want to consider brushing up on the English language.

Thank you for quoting me, however, you should note that my statement regarding drugs refers to the past, not the present.

You made a similar mistake when you confused the words "offer" and "promoting". 🤑

cleeds, so your one of the high on life guys, or gals.  And your busting gdhal's chops for not being too afraid have tuned in and turned on along with millions of others.  Hah, that's rich, your probably on the wrong forum.

gdha

... you should note that my statement regarding drugs refers to the past, not the present.

That's probably a good thing but, as you noted, the damage apparently lingers:

Admittedly, I suspect my mind isn't always as "normal" as it would have been had I not "experimented"

That's why I said people should not chide you for it. I don't think brain damage is a funny topic.

gdhal
Just so any interested party should know, any reference to me and drugs goes way back many years. Nothing current, except beer. I’d venture to say the majority of the world does or has tried some kind of drug, especially if one considers doctor prescribed drugs. Some of the greatest musicians have experimented too. Including the Beatles, which the vinyl lovers among the group typically revere. If you haven’t tried it, you ought to. It opens one mind to creativity and possibilities, not the impossible.

Uh, Earth to gdhal.👨‍🚀 Did drugs give you magic powers? Did drugs turn you into Carnak the Magnificent? Able to know anything about fuses without any experience or technical argument to back it up? Didn’t you get the memo? Drugs are sometimes unpredictable, unlike fuse directionality, making some folks minds contract and close down, you know, rather than expand and open up. Beer has an effect of dulling the mind from I observe. Maybe you should consider switching back to drugs. 🤠

“Turn on, tune in, drop dead.” A.E. Newman

“People would be generally much better off if they believed in too much rather than too little.” P.T. Barnum

jetter

cleeds, so your one of the high on life guys, or gals. And your busting gdhal’s chops for not being too afraid have tuned in and turned on along with millions of others.

You might want to read what I posted more carefully. I actually defended gdhal. I don’t think it’s amusing to mock people with brain damage.

You chiding me for not having consumed hallucinogenic drugs is just silly peer pressure.

your probably on the wrong forum.

Really? You have to do drugs to participate here?

@geoffkait 
"Clowns are the pegs on which the circus is hung". P.T. Barnum

cleeds - I don't think brain damage is a funny topic.

Agreed. But my wallet and I are rather confident I don't have it.

gdhal
@geoffkait
"Clowns are the pegs on which the circus is hung". P.T. Barnum

Eggs ackly! I assume you misfired. Better load again. 

geoffkait - I assume you misfired. Better load again.

Nope. "My aim is true", to quote Elvis Costello. 

Incidentally, even you would have to agree I was/am right about the fact that you have to have the last word. Read back a few posts.

As to drugs, should this forum close for 24 hours or more, or no members post in that period, you would suffer the worst withdrawal symptoms imaginable.

Carry on.

It’s a time honored tradition here for me to have the last word.

geoffkait - It’s a time honored tradition here for me to have the last word.

Even if what you write is fiction, which you've since admitted you're the king of. 

@gdhal, pseudoskeptics are the pegs clowns hang their unmentionables on. 🤡 I am the king of lies and the king of truth. You are the queen of pseudoskeptics.

Well what do we have here folks? Name calling? Intentional misspelling of someones user id, etc? 

Isn't that grand?

I mean, it's completely childish and totally irrelevant.

It would be like my stating that the weather in Falls Church Virginia is 53 degrees. 

@gdhal - Help me out. What is it called when someone posts the same thing over and over - as you have - without getting any results? Isn’t there a word for that? Besides stalking. Also, it would be really nice for other folks who might still be reading this thread if you put a little content and/or humor in your posts as they have become rather dry and barren. Like the desert. Is that asking too much?

geoffkait - Help me out..... Is that asking too much?

No, it's not. I'll step aside so you can have the last word and get the help you are requesting. 

Did you come up with that all by yourself? Now you can have the last word. I promise.

geoffkait - Now you can have the last word. I promise.

@geoffkait 

I'm very appreciative of your allowing me to have the last word. So, if you don't care to answer the following legitimate question I have for you, I'll understand. I promise.

Just seeking your *opinion*. Because your opinion cannot be right or wrong, I won't offer rebuttal ad nauseam. I promise.

Lets assume you are entirely correct on the technical aspects/merits of fuses. Lets further assume you are able to hear a difference, and have elected to use said fuse(s).

How does this change your "enjoyment" of listening to music?

Thanks.

gdhal,

Something is obviously wrong with you. Have you considered going on the Dr. Phil Show?

@geoffkait

I knew you wouldn’t and/or couldn’t have any kind of meaningful answer to my question.

To demonstrate my honesty and promise to you, I shall offer no further rebuttal.

I’ll simply step aside once again, so you can continue to get the help you have requested.

I am fascinated by the directionality arguments concerning fuses.  Did proponents of this idea forget that our electronics are powered by alternating current? That means it goes back and forth, not just forward. Besides, the transformer has no directly wired connection between  the fuse and and the transformer's output. It simply takes a magnetic force created by the wired AC side, and has a second side of windings that pick up this force to create a multiple of the original line voltage. Then, on most modern amps, a computer chip determines when to take this voltage to keep the caps filled. Unless a fuse is causing oscillation due to a defect, and also is feeding an amp with lackluster design, it does not affect anything except our wish to justify the money we spent, aka The Placebo Effect.

Thank you @danvignau for providing the help @geoffkait has requested.

danvignau

I am fascinated by the directionality arguments concerning fuses.  Did proponents of this idea forget that our electronics are powered by alternating current?

This has been explained by fuse advocates many times in this thread and others. Of course, you're free to reject the reasoning. But to pretend that it hasn't been provided is disingenuous.

@cleeds 

I'd be appreciative if you could/would answer the following questions.

How does fuse and/or wire directionality change your "enjoyment" of listening to music?

Please speculate, in what way should someone else, such as myself, expect to benefit if fuses and/or wire is oriented correctly?

Thank you.

gdhal

@cleeds I’d be appreciative if you could/would answer the following questions.

How does fuse and/or wire directionality change your "enjoyment" of listening to music?

I don’t know. I’ve never experimented with wire directionality, with the exception of RCA ICs that have the outer shield connected at only one end. But most reasonable people would probably agree that can make a difference.

Please speculate, in what way should someone else, such as myself, expect to benefit if fuses and/or wire is oriented correctly?

I’m not sure. If this is something that especially interests you, you might want to give it a try, and then report back. But as you previously acknowledged, your strong expectation bias might color the result. Still, it might be worth a try.

Thank you,

@cleeds

A primary reason I’ve never experimented with reversing fuses is that I don’t know how to conduct a listening test that would allow me to quickly switch back and forth between the two orientations. I think being able to do that is a prerequisite for a valid listening test. As for cables, most of my ICS are either balanced or have an outer shield connected at only one end, so it’s not practical to reverse those. That leaves me with speaker cables but again, how could I quickly switch between two orientations? I’d need some kind of switcher and then long lengths of speaker cable that I could cut in half, and then connect to the switcher with one option reversed. That’s more work than I’m likely to undertake.

cleeds - A primary reason I’ve never experimented with reversing fuses is that I don’t know how to conduct a listening test that would allow me to quickly switch back and forth between the two orientations..... That leaves me with speaker cables but again, how could I quickly switch between two orientations? ....

@cleeds

Understood. I respectively disagree, however, that there is any kind of necessity to do the reversal "quickly".

If the test were simply for your own edification, you could enlist the help of a friend who would perform the reversal (i.e. the reversal or non reversal is blind to you). Granted, it could be a minute or two between each iteration of the test.

Keep in mind though that many folks have expressed a "major" difference. In these cases, I humbly submit that if in fact there is a major difference, it should/could be detected regardless of the test methodology and how long or short of time elapses between each test.

For example, if I play a Bob Dylan song and once complete I then play an Amy Winehouse song, I might say "they sound different" and in fact "they sound overwhelmingly and obviously different". In this case, it wouldn't matter that Amy Winehouse began playing 1 millisecond, 1 year, or anywhere in between after Bob Dylan. I’d tell you, *one hundred percent of the time* - as in never wrong once - whether or not Bob or Amy were the artist being played.

Therefore, those who purportedly can hear a "major" difference when a fuse or wire is reversed, should also be subject to this same - and very simple - test, irrespective of duration of time between the first listen and subsequent listen.

gdhal1

I respectively disagree, however, that there is any kind of necessity to do the reversal "quickly".

If the test were simply for your own edification, you could enlist the help of a friend who would perform the reversal (i.e. the reversal or non reversal is blind to you). Granted, it could be a minute or two between each iteration of the test.

You're free to disagree, but there's a lot of research on valid listening tests that conflicts with your claim.

For example, if I play a Bob Dylan song and once complete I then play an Amy Winehouse song, I might say "they sound different" and in fact "they sound overwhelmingly and obviously different". In this case, it wouldn't matter that Amy Winehouse began playing 1 millisecond, 1 year, or anywhere in between after Bob Dylan. I’d tell you, *one hundred percent of the time* - as in never wrong once - whether or not Bob or Amy were the artist being played.

I think the changes that might result from reversing the orientation of a fuse would be a lot more subtle than discriminating between Bob Dylan and Amy Winehouse. The test you're describing is nowhere near rigorous enough to reliably reveal such differences, and I suspect you know that. 

Can someone please remind me what the topic of this thread was !!

Hi @cleeds 

First, my apology as I meant to write "respectfully" instead of "respectively". No matter, you get the idea :)

I think the changes that might result from reversing the orientation of a fuse would be a lot more subtle than discriminating between Bob Dylan and Amy Winehouse. The test you're describing is nowhere near rigorous enough to reliably reveal such differences, and I suspect you know that.

Consider the operative word you are using - "subtle". Now consider many folks are clearly writing "major", "not so subtle" and other descriptors instead of the just the word subtle. I see/hear nothing wrong with the "blinded" Amy > Bob > Amy > Bob test I describe. In fact, I would have to think you and others would *want* to do a blind test in the manner I describe, even if merely to substantiate your belief. This is what I did when I purchased a DAC. Why wouldn't you/others do this when reversing a fuse/wire?

gdhal

I see/hear nothing wrong with the "blinded" Amy > Bob > Amy > Bob test I describe.

Understood, but as I explained, a lot of research shows that quick switching is required for a valid listening test.

In fact, I would have to think you and others would *want* to do a blind test in the manner I describe, even if merely to substantiate your belief. This is what I did when I purchased a DAC. Why wouldn’t you/others do this when reversing a fuse/wire?

I've already told you: I don’t have a belief. I haven’t switched the orientation of a fuse or wire, so I have no reason to test it.

@cleeds 

Fair enough. Then, given the recent communication, I'd imagine you might consider extending an apology to me for using the word "fraud" numerous times. What we have is a simple disagreement as to how any kind of testing would be performed. No right or wrong per se, just a difference of opinion. Thanks.

The very best “Fuse” is no Fuse.

Kenny.

The very best “Fuse” is no Fuse.
kdude66

Totally agree with you but till then we have to put up with what we have so can't we just agree to disagree.

gdhal
Fair enough. Then, given the recent communication, I’d imagine you might consider extending an apology to me for using the word "fraud" numerous times. What we have is a simple disagreement as to how any kind of testing would be performed. No right or wrong per se, just a difference of opinion. Thanks.

>>>>OK, maybe it’s time to review the bidding. The reason I say it’s a “fraud” is not because gdhal is intentionally perpetrating a fraud or a hoax, at least as far as I know, but because of something fundamental to testing in general. Keep in mind blind tests are almost always presented by skeptics as PROOF that a particular device or idea is a hoax or false. Even though no test has yet been done. Uh, hel-loo! See the fallacy with the argument? So anyway, the fundamental flaw is that a single audio test, any test, even a test done with care and thoroughness, if the results are negative the conclusion cannot be drawn that the device or concept under test failed. The reason the single test with negative results has no meaning is because there are a great many things that can go wrong to produce negative results.  I’m not even considering the case where the test is manipulated to produce negative results. I don’t even have to go there.

geoffkait - ....The reason I say it’s a “fraud” is not because gdhal is intentionally perpetrating a fraud or a hoax, at least as far as I know, but because of something fundamental to testing in general. Keep in mind blind tests are almost always presented by skeptics as PROOF that a particular device or idea is a hoax or false....

The statement of mine that you've quoted was directed at cleeds. We know that you've already clearly indicated you are "the king of fiction" and (paraphrasing) "by tradition must have the last word".

Is it also your belief that you can and should respond on behalf of other forum members?

Further, I completely, utterly and entirely disagree with your assessment of the type of test I've proposed.But it's okay to agree to disagree, and at least you've recognized there is nothing "intentional".

geoffkait - I’m not even considering the case where the test is manipulated to produce negative results.

Given the simplicity and what should be relative ease of audibly hearing a difference when ordinary speaker wire is reversed given the test I've proposed (Amy > Bob > Amy > Bob), ***I'll allow YOU to manipulate it***. And you still won't hear a difference. Would you like to try?

gdhal

I’d imagine you might consider extending an apology to me for using the word "fraud" numerous times. What we have is a simple disagreement as to how any kind of testing would be performed. No right or wrong per se, just a difference of opinion.

Not so. There is a mountain of information about how to conduct scientifically valid listening tests, going back at least as far as Munson’s presentations to the AES in the late ’50s. (Yes, that Munson, the guy who worked with Fletcher.) What you proposed was a process we could politely call "scientifically invalid," but which was essentially rigged so as to ensure that the outcome of your $25,000 wager could be favorable only to you. And this was all to be negotiated in secret, outside of the forum, but somehow legitimized because you’d bring lawyers into it. The moderators concluded that it was a ruse and deleted all of your efforts to promote your "offer." 

I agree that no fuse is the best for sound but luckily, the SR Blue fuse sounds really similar to my friends’ identical amps but for his use of circuit breakers in place of the fuses.

gdhal, Yes, I realize your comment was directed at cleeds. But you were going on about fraud so much I decided to expound on the idea that blind tests are inherently “a fraud.” Especially when it’s only the threat of blind tests. You don’t even have the decency to wait for the test results. That’s just plain silly. 😂

fleschler - I agree that no fuse is the best for sound but luckily, the SR Blue fuse sounds really similar to my friends’ identical amps but for his use of circuit breakers in place of the fuses.

I’m waiting for the top-of-line SR "purple haze" fuse.

Wow. I bet trolls are writing really nasty personal rants against me. Thanks moderators.

I joke about SR "upgrading" and changing their top of the line tweaks, but it’s all for the better. I am glad I purchased the Atmosphere XL4 rather than an FEQ or lower model for my large listening room. Some of my SR items have been "upgraded" once (red to black duplex) or never since their inception (the Blackbox). I just use the SR red duplexes now for my video system instead.

I am especially pleased that the SR blue fuse sounds great immediately as opposed to the tedious 72 hour wait until the SR black fuse sounded acceptable and good (it had a negative effect for about 60 hours). If a purple haze fuse is the next "upgrade" but takes many hours to appreciate, I’ll pass. If it costs $200+, I’ll probably pass as well. I have my limits to how long I will wait and how much I will spend on a fuse. I have not changed my 4 rail fuses in my EAR Acute CD player for the reason it will take too much effort to evaluate the directionality of each fuse versus the other fuses (too many possibilities) and just getting into the player is a pain. I only open it up once annually to clean the lens.

gdhalGiven the simplicity and what should be relative ease of audibly hearing a difference when ordinary speaker wire is reversed given the test I've proposed (Amy > Bob > Amy > Bob), ***I'll allow YOU to manipulate it***. And you still won't hear a difference. Would you like to try?

Where would this be done who would be witness to it what other requirements upon which you would demand previous to scheduling such a test and what other preconditions to you propose? You keep saying you want us to conduct this test even though you don't conduct it yourself in the passed and you have already drawn your conclusion on the test that hasn't yet happened???

clearthink - Where would this be done who would be witness to it what other requirements upon which you would demand previous to scheduling such a test and what other preconditions to you propose? 

Not allowed to adequately reply do to forum policy.

clearthink -  You keep saying you want us to conduct this test even though you don't conduct it yourself in the passed and you have already drawn your conclusion on the test that hasn't yet happened???

Not true at all. I have tried. It has, or hasn't, happened, depending on the perspective. 

gdhal you are not making any sense what so ever why do you keep proposing this test if you also say that the forum does not allow it? You say it has happened hasn't happened well which is it?

I’m getting a very bad feeling. 

clearthink - gdhal you are not making any sense what so ever why do you keep proposing this test if you also say that the forum does not allow it? You say it has happened hasn't happened well which is it?

No proposals. Just opportunities.

geoffkait - I’m getting a very bad feeling.

Oh stop. You love this kind of stuff. Remember, withdrawal symptoms otherwise :)

gdhal"No proposals. Just opportunities."
Well are you going to tell us about these special "opportunities" or do you just keep playing guessing games I am beginning to think there is nothing serious about you at all so why not provide some specific, concrete, factual information right here?  

....I am beginning to think...

This is good to understand. 

I suspect - but I could be wrong, hence just a suspicion - that you are very much aware of the manner in which I have asked that my opportunity be discussed. 

gdhal "I suspect - but I could be wrong, hence just a suspicion - that you are very much aware of the manner in which I have asked that my opportunity be discussed"

Oh I guess you want my private information again I thought you'd stopped that silly little effort of yours but you're still playing games trying to steal private information!

👨‍🚀
gdhal

geoffkait - “I’m getting a very bad feeling.”

Oh stop. You love this kind of stuff. Remember, withdrawal symptoms otherwise :)

>>>>>>>I have an upset stomach, if that’s what you mean. By the way, are you like, 15?