We Need A Separate Forum for Fuses

It is amazing how much fuses degrade sound. Goodness this is a statement of fact based on my experience. No fuse sounds best.  I bypass them in my gear. High quality circuit breakers as an on/off are a far better option sonically.  It stands to reason a better quality fuse can only help this one area of clear sonic bottlenecking. 

I'm really upset now , that nice man who sold me that Gryphon Mikado Signature CD player must have forgotten to tell me it was badly designed.
I must e-mail Mr. Rasussen right away !!!

Whoa! Hey, back up!! You’re saying toasters are now audio devices? Interesting...🤡 I’m afraid that argument is toast.

Should there be a separate forum about fuses?  Yes, keep them separated so they can't harm the general public...;)

But seriously, fuses in the power supply are one thing.  It makes me laugh when people tout changes to air, depth, soundstage, etc, when they change the AC fuse to some expensive nonsense.  Fuses in line with speakers are another.  I can see them making a difference in the sound.

@chefhat, "thought your tweeter story was fascinating, but I would doubt whether the expensive fuse would sound better than the regular fuse - however I can see why no fuse would sound the best!"

Looks like we agree no fuse would sound the best.  Inherent in that position, I believe comes the understanding of how much sonic damage a fuse imparts.  To that end, it seems easy enough to use the same patterns of better materials and / or metallurgies producing better sound as resistors, capacitors, switches, etc.

Regarding the measurements often brought up, as someone who worked as a materials science engineer / R&D chemist at a company providing the raw materials to the likes of Vishay, Dale, Mills, IRC, Raytheon, GE, Chrysler, GM / Ford, Bosch, TRW, Panasonic, Kyocera, Samsung, and on and on I believe the requirements for achieving an ohmic contact necessary for measuring the resistivity of these sort of low-range materials lies outside the capability of any high-end audio company I can think of.  They simply lack the resources to do so: money, equipment, personnel, methodology, experience, understanding, and an overall benchmarking / measuring stick itself.  Beyond the vast array of all of the equipment we had bought or developed to provide the hard numbers, using my eyes with optical and electron microscopes became an invaluable part in helping me develop the sort of conductor, resistor, semiconductor, dielectric, glass, solder, and polymer materials we did.  To that end, although I do not own these sorts of fuses, knowing the chasm that lies between the differences in the properties of the materials themselves and the ability of the sort of test equipment this industry employs to perceive and evaluate them along with my own experience as an audiophile, when folks claim to hear sonic differences, I believe them

@trelja 

Thank you for that reasoned and intelligent observation. 

As someone who has no fuses in his system nor even any place for one, I think I can say without any reservation the noise and distortion is extremely low. Of course, there are many reasons why that is so, including but not limited to, being off house AC and having no ground to contend with.

What do you tell somebody who's system does not allow for them to hear a difference?  That in your system you definitively do?  Unless you invite them over to witness to this phenomena to hear it in your system? They will keep saying fuses do nothing because something in their system is veiling the benefits.  But, of course, if the spent big bucks?  It would have to mean everything is set up optimally by default of the expense.  This debate gets tiring after a while. If someone can not hear the benefits on their system? That means it can not be heard on mine.  That I have no right to hear what I do.... Like I said.  It gets tiring after a while.

 Fuses more so then some they work.  If you can get them on sale they work a little better
  Snake oil ?   Reminds me of a group of people  that get cornered with facts 
So they Yell out   Racist

A sepatate fuse forum is a great idea, ecsecially for those of us who believe that electricity is directional. (AC goes back and forth atv60 cps; dc, at thecfrequencies of the signal.). Maybe we could combine it with the forum on the benefits of filling our little speaker wire supports with dampning fluid with unicorn poop.  TeeHee.  In all seriousness,  has anyone ever tested these designer fuses to see if what they really offer is simply the ability to pass more current, i.e. as not protecting your electronics with properly rated fuses?

This debate gets tiring after a while.

@genez 

Try hearing a sonic benefit in a blind test. That'll end the debate.

gdhal

Try hearing a sonic benefit in a blind test. That'll end the debate.

Have you ever conducted such a test? If so, please share the details of the test. If not, how do you know it will "end the debate?"

 

Gee whiz, guys, I thought we already agreed a blind tests proves nothing. Especially if the results are negative. You know, due to the things that can go wrong. Especially for those among us why aren’t really used to doing tests of tweaks or cables or who all thumbs. 👍

Blind tests are a lot like the old witch hunts of Salem Mass, a woman suspected of being witch was subjected to ye olde Dunking Chair. If she died she couldn’t have been a witch otherwise she would have saved herself. Let the Inquisition begin! 👺

God gave you one mouth and two ears for a reason. - Judge Judy

danvignau
In all seriousness, has anyone ever tested these designer fuses to see if what they really offer is simply the ability to pass more current, i.e. as not protecting your electronics with properly rated fuses?

Yes. The answer is no.

geoffkait

... I thought we already agreed a blind tests proves nothing.

I'm not a big advocate of audiophiles conducting double-blind tests, which I think have greater value to designers and manufacturers. I wouldn't say they prove nothing but - for audiophiles - they prove very, very little, which is why I think they are a complete waste of time for most of us.

What's interesting is the constant clamor from some who insist upon such testing. Those who are so vocal in their advocacy for double-blind tests should conduct their own and share results with us - rather than insist others do their work for them. Frankly, I doubt the sincerity of these advocates.

God gave you one mouth and two ears for a reason. - Judge Judy

We're done - Judge Judy

I would much prefer "I can see testing."   Live with something for about a day, week, month and notice if you will be surprised by details and nuances that you never heard before.  Double blind is stupid.  You run it on a system you are not familiar with... with music you are not familiar with.. in a room you have no idea how things should sound... with recordings you have not heard a million times.  Detecting differences on short runs of music to be evaluated by men in white coats is not conducive for one to relax and enjoy the music. Its a test is like running an obstacle course.

What ever thing you are going to evaluate? Put it in your system and listen to it for a couple of weeks and listen to many different songs.  For the music picked for the blind test might not show the contrasts that with another song the attribute change becomes obvious.  

If you are a big boy and can hear?  Why go blind to see the light? Its stupid.   I used to run AB testing with amps and speakers when I sold audio. Its a pressure test. Not a pleasure test. 

If you can't hear when there is an improvement with your own system over time?   Then you leave it alone.  But,  stop treating those who do benefit as if they were mice in a lab. Its inane when on your own system it will either be heard, or not.  Its that simple. Some won't.   So they want to test others to prove that they are not missing something.  Its their way of getting back for what they lack.

Doug they are not gift, And no plans to try.Very expensive..

jayctoy
Doug they are not gift, And no plans to try.Very expensive..

>>>>Actually, sir, they are not expensive. That’s an Old Wives Tale. There are more than a few high end fuses around 20 bucks and a bunch under 50 bucks. Create Fuse from China is 5 bucks. Check out The Cable Company’s fuse page and see what I mean. Even some stock fuses have high end versions now. Gosh, what’s the world coming to? 🙄

In my Rogue Cronus Magnum Ii, SR fuses in the tube circuit make a very noticeable improvement in SQ. Stands to reason because the entire audio signal, at very low level, passes through each fuse. An extremely thin wire that is meant to melt under excess load is probably not well suited to passing 10 octaves of delicate music signal without altering phase or amplitude for some frequencies.
An audio circuit bears no resemblance to an appliance where the main purpose is to generate random heat energy, of course.

cakids
Stands to reason because the entire audio signal, at very low level, passes through each fuse.

Uh, let’s be fair. The full AC signal passes through fuses located where the AC enters the component. That’s not (rpt not) a very low level signal. Or even a low level signal. You could also say fuses located in speakers, where the signal enters them, does not (rpt not) pass a very low level audio signal. Gee, you could almost say fuses are not really required for very low level signals since low level signals can’t harm the electronics. 😛

Geoffkait,
I guess I don’t understand your comments. The fuses are there to protect the circuit in case of component failure, not to protect against the low level music signal. The effect on the music signal is an unintended consequence - which could be large or small dependind on the circuit and fuse design.
At any rate, in my system I hear a definite improvement by “upgrading” the fuses through which the audio signal flows. Replacing the main power fuse does not seem to improve the sound.

Hey, that’s the way it goes sometimes. Did you try reversing the fuse in the AC line?  Most people hear the effect of fuses in the AC path by the way. 

"It appears to be a common misconception that high end fuses have to expensive. That simply isn’t true, you know, no matter how hard they beat the drum. In fact the Cable Company page for fuses indicates many or maybe most high end fuses are less than $50."

This is the most shocking audiophile statement I have seen in decades. I thought I was inured to being surprised, but I was wrong. (Just in case you are wondering, I think $50 for a fuse is absurd, and to be told it isn't expensive, is laughable).

Do you live in a tree house? Besides, I said hi end fuses start at $5 and many are around twenty bucks. Uh, can’t you read?

”It appears to be a common misconception that high end fuses have to expensive. That simply isn’t true, you know, no matter how hard they beat the drum. In fact the Cable Company page for fuses indicates many or maybe most high end fuses are less than $50. Some are much less than that. You’d have be a really down and out case to consider that expensive”

Yes, I can read. 

Really?

By normal one assumes you probably mean those who think audiophiles are weird or who don’t know anything about fuses or electricity. All of their obsessions over fuses, Little Silver Bowls, electron tubes, turntables, $100K turntables, Message Foils, clocks, Teleportation Tweaks, vibration isolation, wire directionality. Oh, and their little rituals of treating LPs and CDs. Oh, my! All this religious inquisition talk can’t be good for anybody. 👺

kosst_amojan, kindly refrain from stilted comparisons to religion. I could go on at length about Darwinism and the foolishness associated with it both historically and currently. So, kindly refrain from the cheap shots. Thank you. :)

Since when are audiophiles "normal people"? We are atypical, obviously, when it comes to music listening, due to the depth in which we involve ourselves in the hobby and gear. Do I give a rip what I appear like to a "normal" person who doesn't get audiophilia? Not terribly. I'm not doing anything illegal or immoral by the hobby, so why should I care what "normal people" think? Frankly, I think "normal people" are in LaLa land when they don't use their brains to process music and the messages associated with it, so I do NOT wish to be "normal" in that sense. To me "normal" means often mediocre, average, uninspiring, etc. So, if you want to take your cues for what you do in an audio system from "normal people", you will end up with mediocre sound and experience. So, again, I could care less what "normal people" think. I suppose there are audiophiles out there who feel constrained by not wanting to look abnormal, so they don't pursue an ultimate system. What a sad thing that would be, to have passion for it and be too self-conscious to live the dream. 

Take nearly any hobby - creating those little fake sceneries for fairies comes to mind (people actually spend inordinate amounts of time crafting, then placing miniature scenes for fairies. Now, if you want me to question someone's thought patterns... I won't get into that here, but that makes a fuse look downright sensible!) - and you will have people who seem over the edge. Cosplay fans make audiophiles look downright pedestrian. 

The pattern is simple enough to deconstruct;
Disdain and disbelief that a product can be efficacious
Determination that it is not worth the money
Mockery

People are free to do so, but there is a cost associated, the potential to improve the audio system. No try, no potential benefit. The wallet is protected at what cost? 

Far from snake oil, imo fuses are the Acid Test of system building. That's why I started this thread. Fuses bring the question of efficacy down to a $50 price point. Imagine an audiophile who rejects a $50 potentially efficacious improvement to the system in favor of  a particular  $2-5K component improvement without hearing either one. Now who looks "ludicrous" and who looks "normal"? 

kosst_amojan

"Fusers" strike me as the audio equivalent to those religious fundamentalists who insist you must pronounce God’s name in some strange way or else he won’t hear your prayers ...
We need a snake oil forum ...

The greatest fundamentalist religious fervor here seems to be from proselytizers such as yourself, who feel compelled to repeat your version of the gospel even as the majority here seem to be disinterested in being "saved" from the devil you call snake oil.

As I have not spent time with fuse swapping, I really can't offer much here. But I will tell you that when I changed the direction of my power transistors, the results were clearly audible.

Yuk, yuk! Hire this man!

I don't think either camp has the market cornered in terms of zeal or fervor. Let's try to be civil and stay on topic. 

I find there is always disdain for the claim that a change to a wire of shorter length is efficacious. Power cords are derided because, "The power company.... miles of power lines, etc." Similarly, fuses seem to be discounted merely because of their smallness, or short, thin wiring? That may seem common sense initially, but logically I find that erroneous when it comes to power and signal transmission. 

As to the pricing, I think there are people who hold absolute values for products and will never vary regardless of the claims made, and there are those who value objects such that they can see the cost relative to the goal.  This alone will assure there never to be universal acceptance of fuses, imo. 

Let's also not forget that a fuse is not "just a wire" anymore than a speaker cable (unless it's supported in an oversized sleeve with no terminations) or interconnect is "just a wire". If we can get over that grossly oversimplified premise, then we can step back and take a look at what it really is: a component. 

We need to understand that it's a kind of filter, and how it interacts with what's upstream and downstream. 

A common, run of the mill fuse has endcaps, solder and wire made of some of the cheapest metals around and not of the quality one would find in a good cables. No one in their right mind would make any cables with those cheap and impure metals. Nor would they make traces on a PCB board with the same materials.

Everyone agrees that no fuse sounds the best, so just what is it that degrades the sound? Bueller? Bueller? 

The question that should be addressed is just how much of a change a fuse introduces, not that it's so small as to be insignificant. That undercuts the very argument of those who rely solely on measurements alone.

Evidence abounds with how a small change in something can result in a larger change when everything is summed. That's obviously the case here. Observed empirically, there is a change and the only recourse for naysayers is to demand double blind parlor tricks? 

On another thread, a link showed how Paul McGowen was subjected to a completely blind test in where a friend changed something in his amp without his knowledge of what it was and it was for the better. I believe his friend did it a couple of times and Paul consistently heard the improvement. He couldn't explain it, but heard it, and accepted it. So say I.

And as for the costs, my Brimar fuses are outstanding, compared to HiFi Tuning and PADIS fuses and are only $35 apiece. That's chump change and well worth the investment. 

All the best,
Nonoise 

kosst_amojan
The only person I’ve plopped down in the listening chair and played music for who didn’t immediately recognize that they were hearing something of unique quality was a guy who was literally deaf in one ear. My hard of hearing mother thought the money and effort I was pouring into this was kinda crazy.... Until she heard it. It doesn’t take some wacky obsession for somebody to appreciate quality sound and want it for themselves. It doesn’t take hocus pocus fuses either. I’m looking at a thread here full of people swearing fuses - things not even in the actual signal path - make these marked differences. A few months ago I ripped out the big, bad madly shielded IC cables I used in my F5 obtained from a fellow building some very nice cables and replaced it with some solid 26g twisted copper connecting the RCA jacks to the amp boards. That’s a change far more radical than a freaking fuse. It made only the most barely perceptible difference. A $50 for a fuse, eh? To alter the sound of $5 worth of transistors? That’s not insane? I’d be better off better matching my source resistors! Hell of a lot more difference! Hell of a lot cheaper!

>>>>>So, you’re saying your hard of hearing mother says she likes the sound quality of your system? That’s sweet.

The reason you didn’t hear much difference between the radically different interconnects is because your system isn’t revealing enough. Oh, well, that’s the way it goes sometimes. 😛

Hello Douglas Schroeder, 
 Your polite reply to the smug, condescending and frankly silly comments from Kosst_Amorjan was mature, intelligent and exceptionally thoughtful.  Now on an audio forum we stoop to denigration of religious fundamentalists? Oy vey !
Charles 

geoffkait - how can a fuse in an AC circuit be directional? AC by it’s nature is non-directional. Please elaborate. Thx

nonoise
Everyone agrees that no fuse sounds the best, so just what is it that degrades the sound? Bueller? Bueller? The question that should be addressed is just how much of a change a fuse introduces, not that it's so small as to be insignificant. That undercuts the very argument of those who rely solely on measurements alone.

>>>>I’m pretty sure we already know the answer to that question. We know the answer by examining what it is that high end fuse manufacturers are doing to achieve superior results. Ready? OK, so here we go. As you said, purer metals for the conducting wire. Also better metal and pure metal for the end caps. Again, better conductor. OK, then you got your beeswax filled or liquid filled fuse or ceramic body fuses for vibration control. Make sense. The super thin wire is especially subject to vibration. You also got your black powder inside the fuse or Graphene on the fuse body for RFI/EMI shielding/absorption. Then you got your cryogenics which further improves performance. If you’re in the spirit a little bitty WA Quantum chip on the fuse is like the cherry on the top. Voila! Hey, how come DIYers don’t make their own fuses? Explain that if you can.

These special fuses cost more than the latest and greatest DAC chips!

what a joke

chefhat
geoffkait - how can a fuse in an AC circuit be directional? AC by it’s nature is non-directional. Please elaborate. Thx

>>>>The term non-directional is incorrect. The term should be bi-directional, two directions, no? 

A better term would probably be indirectional, as there is no directionality.

Either way geoffkait, can you elaborate, as I fail to see how a fuse carrying an AC current can be directional.

Thx

@geoffkait

"The question that should be addressed is just how much of a change a fuse introduces,"......"it’s so small as to be insignificant"

Bingo! You are getting closer.....just a couple of superfluous words too many - I removed them for you...keep trying.

Sorry, Mitch, that wasn’t me. 😬

The actual quote, in it's entirety is:

Everyone agrees that no fuse sounds the best, so just what is it that degrades the sound? Bueller? Bueller? The question that should be addressed is just how much of a change a fuse introduces, not that it's so small as to be insignificant. That undercuts the very argument of those who rely solely on measurements alone.

Now, keep typing, if so inclined.

All the best,
Nonoise

The AC signal continually reverses direction, at the rate of 60 cycles per second or whatever. That’s why it’s called alternating current. It the signal first travels one direction then the other. It is therefore bi-directional. It’s not non-directional or indirectional. It’s not continuous as I’ve seen you say somewhere.

But when we talk about fuse directionality we’re referring to the idea that the fuse sounds better when the fuse is inserted in one direction rather than the other. A fuse in an AC circuit is directional because what you hear in terms of sound depends only on the signal during the alternating cycle when it is traveling toward the speakers from the amp or to the amp from the wall, whatever. You don’t care what the signal sounds like when it’s traveling back toward the wall outlet. That’s why fuses in AC circuits are directional.

@geoffkait  and @nonoise 
You guys were paying attention.
I became overly excited when I thought we were making progress.
I still find,

"so small as to be insignificant"

to be the salient point of the entire statement