I just color my fuses blue.
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It appears to be a common misconception that high end fuses have to expensive. That simply isn’t true, you know, no matter how hard they beat the drum. In fact the Cable Company page for fuses indicates many or maybe most high end fuses are less than $50. Some are much less than that. You’d have be a really down and out case to consider that expensive.
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Uh, oh! Looks like we have to add another one to the not happy column. 😥 There is no joy in Mudville today.
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The wire in a fuse is orders of magnitude thinner than a speaker cable with proportionally greater resistance. Go figure! In this hobby it’s often the case what you believe has very little to do with it. I have used hi end fuses in the past but now currently as I’m listening off the grid, which completely avoids any issue fuses may or may not have such as distortion and noise, not to mention noise and distortion from the house AC.
“If thy eye offend thee cut it out.” - old audiophile axiom |
A better power supply? Really? Better than the power supply in a $30K amplifier? Better than the power supply in a $100K amplifier? Give us a break. I suspect you’re just guessing.
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Ah, the old “it’s common sense” argument. It’s like seeing an old friend. Unfortunately it doesn’t win debates. A tear. 😥
By the way, shadorne, what I’m actually claiming, not what you say I’m claiming, since you can’t seem to keep it straight, is that all fuses are directional, no matter where they are located. And no matter what brand of fuse is examined, including stock off the shelf fuses. All fuses are directional in both DC and AC circuits. Can I direct you the HiFi Tuning data sheets for the umpty umpth time?
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Gimme a T...gimme an R...
What’s that spell?!
🤡
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Excellent example of a Strawman Argument. Fuses that are in the AC power path affect the sound, too. Go figure.
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Whoa! Hey, back up!! You’re saying toasters are now audio devices? Interesting...🤡 I’m afraid that argument is toast.
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As someone who has no fuses in his system nor even any place for one, I think I can say without any reservation the noise and distortion is extremely low. Of course, there are many reasons why that is so, including but not limited to, being off house AC and having no ground to contend with.
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danvignau
In all seriousness, has anyone ever tested these designer fuses to see if what they really offer is simply the ability to pass more current, i.e. as not protecting your electronics with properly rated fuses?
Yes. The answer is no.
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Gee whiz, guys, I thought we already agreed a blind tests proves nothing. Especially if the results are negative. You know, due to the things that can go wrong. Especially for those among us why aren’t really used to doing tests of tweaks or cables or who all thumbs. 👍
Blind tests are a lot like the old witch hunts of Salem Mass, a woman suspected of being witch was subjected to ye olde Dunking Chair. If she died she couldn’t have been a witch otherwise she would have saved herself. Let the Inquisition begin! 👺
God gave you one mouth and two ears for a reason. - Judge Judy |
Let your fingers do the walking. Google is your friend.
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jayctoy
Doug they are not gift, And no plans to try.Very expensive..
>>>>Actually, sir, they are not expensive. That’s an Old Wives Tale. There are more than a few high end fuses around 20 bucks and a bunch under 50 bucks. Create Fuse from China is 5 bucks. Check out The Cable Company’s fuse page and see what I mean. Even some stock fuses have high end versions now. Gosh, what’s the world coming to? 🙄
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cakids
Stands to reason because the entire audio signal, at very low level, passes through each fuse.
Uh, let’s be fair. The full AC signal passes through fuses located where the AC enters the component. That’s not (rpt not) a very low level signal. Or even a low level signal. You could also say fuses located in speakers, where the signal enters them, does not (rpt not) pass a very low level audio signal. Gee, you could almost say fuses are not really required for very low level signals since low level signals can’t harm the electronics. 😛
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Do you live in a tree house? Besides, I said hi end fuses start at $5 and many are around twenty bucks. Uh, can’t you read? |
Hey, that’s the way it goes sometimes. Did you try reversing the fuse in the AC line? Most people hear the effect of fuses in the AC path by the way.
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By normal one assumes you probably mean those who think audiophiles are weird or who don’t know anything about fuses or electricity. All of their obsessions over fuses, Little Silver Bowls, electron tubes, turntables, $100K turntables, Message Foils, clocks, Teleportation Tweaks, vibration isolation, wire directionality. Oh, and their little rituals of treating LPs and CDs. Oh, my! All this religious inquisition talk can’t be good for anybody. 👺
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chefhat
geoffkait - how can a fuse in an AC circuit be directional? AC by it’s nature is non-directional. Please elaborate. Thx
>>>>The term non-directional is incorrect. The term should be bi-directional, two directions, no?
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kosst_amojan
The only person I’ve plopped down in the listening chair and played music for who didn’t immediately recognize that they were hearing something of unique quality was a guy who was literally deaf in one ear. My hard of hearing mother thought the money and effort I was pouring into this was kinda crazy.... Until she heard it. It doesn’t take some wacky obsession for somebody to appreciate quality sound and want it for themselves. It doesn’t take hocus pocus fuses either. I’m looking at a thread here full of people swearing fuses - things not even in the actual signal path - make these marked differences. A few months ago I ripped out the big, bad madly shielded IC cables I used in my F5 obtained from a fellow building some very nice cables and replaced it with some solid 26g twisted copper connecting the RCA jacks to the amp boards. That’s a change far more radical than a freaking fuse. It made only the most barely perceptible difference. A $50 for a fuse, eh? To alter the sound of $5 worth of transistors? That’s not insane? I’d be better off better matching my source resistors! Hell of a lot more difference! Hell of a lot cheaper!
>>>>>So, you’re saying your hard of hearing mother says she likes the sound quality of your system? That’s sweet.
The reason you didn’t hear much difference between the radically different interconnects is because your system isn’t revealing enough. Oh, well, that’s the way it goes sometimes. 😛
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nonoise
Everyone agrees that no fuse sounds the best, so just what is it that degrades the sound? Bueller? Bueller? The question that should be addressed is just how much of a change a fuse introduces, not that it's so small as to be insignificant. That undercuts the very argument of those who rely solely on measurements alone.
>>>>I’m pretty sure we already know the answer to that question. We know the answer by examining what it is that high end fuse manufacturers are doing to achieve superior results. Ready? OK, so here we go. As you said, purer metals for the conducting wire. Also better metal and pure metal for the end caps. Again, better conductor. OK, then you got your beeswax filled or liquid filled fuse or ceramic body fuses for vibration control. Make sense. The super thin wire is especially subject to vibration. You also got your black powder inside the fuse or Graphene on the fuse body for RFI/EMI shielding/absorption. Then you got your cryogenics which further improves performance. If you’re in the spirit a little bitty WA Quantum chip on the fuse is like the cherry on the top. Voila! Hey, how come DIYers don’t make their own fuses? Explain that if you can.
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Sorry, Mitch, that wasn’t me. 😬
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The AC signal continually reverses direction, at the rate of 60 cycles per second or whatever. That’s why it’s called alternating current. It the signal first travels one direction then the other. It is therefore bi-directional. It’s not non-directional or indirectional. It’s not continuous as I’ve seen you say somewhere.
But when we talk about fuse directionality we’re referring to the idea that the fuse sounds better when the fuse is inserted in one direction rather than the other. A fuse in an AC circuit is directional because what you hear in terms of sound depends only on the signal during the alternating cycle when it is traveling toward the speakers from the amp or to the amp from the wall, whatever. You don’t care what the signal sounds like when it’s traveling back toward the wall outlet. That’s why fuses in AC circuits are directional.
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Al, comment accepted without comment. |
douglas_schroeder OP
In all matters of what can be heard in systems we cannot discount the influence of hearing loss, ambient room noise, and the level of equipment. That varies across the audiophile universe, so we should expect a certain amount of divergence of opinion on such things as fuses, even among those who have tried. As for those who haven’t tried, these variables don’t matter. ;)
>>>>Let me add (1) experience listening to and evaluating tweaks, (2) having mistakes in the system, (3) time of day, weather, (4) not following instructions and (5) use of CDs for the test that are in reverse Polarity, which would be what, about half of them? There is even (6) the spectre of reverse placebo effect, the dreaded nocebo effect, looming in the distance. 😬
An ordinary man has no means of deliverance. - old audiophile saw
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Dear Mr Chef, I’m afraid we’re having a bit of a communications problem. I’ve explained what I meant already. You want the fuse oriented so the direction of the current or the signal is toward the speakers. And yes, we know all about why fuses are used. Which is ironic since I don’t use fuses myself. Nor do I have places to use fuses even if I wanted to. |
The last time I looked audiophiles do not (rpt not) agree on much of anything. Do you seriously think any self respecting skeptic or audiophile would agree with the notion he can’t really hear or that his system is not all that. I mean, come on! There have been cases, not many I’ll grant you, where members have reported not hearing aftermarket fuses. I kinda doubt they will agree with you, that it’s their hearing or their system that’s to blame. Besides, I trust you’re not trying to speak for all audiophiles.
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Whoa! Hey, you were the one that started all this. I’m just trying to be helpful. 😳
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Uh, no. 😬 A diode allows much more ease of current flow in one direction than the other.
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Addendum: There’s no such thing as a “directional fuse.” They’re all directional. There aren’t any non-directional fuses. Even Littelfuse and Bussman fuses are directional.
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There is no doubt magnetic fields are bad for the sound. That’s why there are low frequency high permeability metal absorbers for large transformers and similar high frequency high permeability metal shields/absorbers for speaker magnets. Fuses themselves can be shielded greatly reducing magnetic field effects on the fuse/sound, but you would undoubtedly find the fuse was still directional so it’s very unlikely magnetism causes directionality in fuses in particular and wire generally. I don’t even have to bring up the self induced magnetic field.
All of the wire in the component is directional, not just the fuse. Cable manufacturers control directionality of cables and power cords for a reason. To remove all the guesswork and to improve the sound. Whereas cables are controlled for directionality and are marked with directional arrows, fuses usually must be tried both ways even when they are marked with a symbol or arrow.
Perhaps fuse holders should be manufactured better, who knows, in any case rotating the fuse in a fuse holder would produce random results so the fuse holder theory cannot be the overriding one. The sonic results are also quite peculiar and notable for fuse directionality and cannot be attributed to the imperfections of fuse holders. In other words there are recognizable and repeatable distortions in the sound of fuses in the wrong direction, unlike a “weak” connection in a fuse holder.
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mapman
One indisputable fact for sure is you change a fuse and you also change the connection. No way to get around that one! Everyone knows connections do matter. Right? How do you get around that one in order to be sure its the fuse and not just the connection changing the sound?
By careful testing.
mapman
If you treat a regular fuse with contact enhancing gunk does that make it a fancy fuse? Inquiring minds want to know!
Sure, why not?
mapman
What if the properties of the gunk changes with age (like most of us and not usually for the better) and the connection gets worse over time not better? is there some high end gunk remover for that?
What if it doesn’t change? What if electrons get old and cranky?
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timlub
I did measure directional resistance before putting them in, not sure that direction matters, but I figured "why not"..
Interesting. What were your measurements?
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I thought he was wearing a mask. 🤡 |
Well, you’ll pardon me for saying so but they’re not ageing quite as quickly as your posts.
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“You can’t stop what’s coming.” - No Country for Old Men
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mikexxyz
I think its a mischaracterization to say jealousy drives some of the naysayer comments. Personally, I know that other people can hear better than I can - no problem. Likewise, I have no problem with people of means buying whatever they like. What is troubling is the misrepresentation of the benefits of these dubious products.
>>>>Huh? Whoa!! First, no one accused anyone of jealousy. Where did you come up with that? We DO accuse them of being pseudo skeptics since real skeptics would actually attempt to get to the bottom of all this fuse business instead of shooting from the hip and from the comfort of their Barco Lounger. Second, no one has misrepresented the benefits of the aftermarket fuses. Haven’t you been following? Talk about shooting from the hip. What HAS been misrepresented is the notion that “well designed amps” are immune to the benefits of aftermarket fuses and some sort of mumbo jumbo nonsense that science can’t explain why aftermarket fuses work better than an ordinary fuses.
It appears Harbeth in their wisdom copied the business model for blind test scams set forth by The Amazing Randi and his Education Foundation. Cough, cough! |
NASA gets the high end fuse bug. Note similarity to audiophile high end fuses. 😁
“The high voltage power systems of satellites and spacecraft present unique fuse and fault protection challenges. High reliability fuses presently defined by MIL-PRF-23419 do not meet the increased voltage and amperage requirements for the next generation of spacecraft. Solid-body style fuses exhibit superior electrical and mechanical attributes that enable these fuses to perform reliably in the vacuum and high vibration and shock environments typically present in spacecraft applications. The construction and screening techniques for solid-body fuses described by MIL-PRF- 23419/12 offer an excellent roadmap for the development of high voltage solid-body fuses.
While FM08 style fuses are constructed with a wire filament that passes through a hollow cavity (see Figure 1), solid-body fuses (FM12 styles included) are designed and constructed in a manner that ensures that the overall fuse package is substantially devoid of air. Figure 2 provides a sectional view of a typical FM12 style fuse. The fusible element is comprised of thick film gold that is deposited on a thermally and electrically insulated substrate. A complete range of fusing values is achievable by precisely controlling the fusible element print thickness and geometry. Thick film silver termination pads are placed at each end of the thick film fusible element. The fusible element is completely covered with an arc suppressive glass. Leads are attached to the silver terminations by the use of high temperature solder. The final fuse package is insert molded with an engineering thermoplastic to complete the fuse.”
NOTE: Excerpt provided above taken from technical paper written almost twenty years ago. - your friend and humble scribe who, incidentally, presented a paper to the national AIAA conference on the dodgy subject of a low thrust ion engine for interplanetary travel exactly 50 years ago today. |
Full disclosure. I used to be a fuse adaptor, was for many years. But with my battery powered portable Walkman CD Player fuses are a thing of the past. So is house AC, interconnects, power cords, transformers, all that kind of stuff. Talk about low distortion.
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Just to mention the AC fuse in some units, such as my former all tube Woo Audio headphone amp, is located externally where the power cord enters the component. Ditto speaker fuses in my Fultons, external. In my previous player, the world’s most thoroughly modded Oppo 102, I bipassed the fuse with a pure copper slug, figuring what the hell, I’ve already broken any warrantee I might have had. 😛
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gdhal
I am not a fuse adopter, with digital front end.
By the way, I haven’t read anything herein (could have missed it though) about cases where fuses are not readily accessible and therefore require one to open a factory sealed component and risk voiding the warranty as a result of doing so. Of course if you’re a do-it-yourself person that may be a moot point.
But voiding or potentially voiding a manufacturers warranty is a hell of a price to pay for being stylish.
>>>>Yeah, amazing what audiophiles will go through for better sound! Trust me, you have no idea. Seriously.
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ieales
Possible reasons changing fuses could make a difference:
- fuse socket is contaminated. Metal to metal junctions become semiconductors over time. R&Ring the fuse a couple of times can restore metal to metal contact.
- fuse element has degraded over time from ’near misses’ in thousands of heatings and coolings
IMO, the #1 reason ’fuses have sound’ is lack of rigor on the part of evaluator. There are 1001 other things that introduce ’differences’ far more audible than a couple of mΩ. See WinterBlues
Unless the DUT can be changed without the CBLF’s knowledge, AFTER a clean contact / standard fuse baseline is established, and note changes concomitant with either device when unknowingly substituted, then it’s just fantasy.
>>>>High comedy on Audiogon. 🤡 It appears there are more folks following the wrong....you know...
🐑 🐑 🐑 |
I was quoting an article on the subject of the then new NASA fuses. I mentioned in my post it was an excerpt of an article. ‘‘Twas not I. My association with NASA ended long before that article was published.
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No thanks, partner, but good luck with that blind test scam. 🤠
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I realize I’ve posted some of these before somewhere along the line but maybe it’s good to post them again. We’ll see. 😬 Without further ado here are some suggestions for further improving any newfangled high end fuse. Or any stock fuse.
1. Cryogenically treat the fuse. The cryo lab (if he’s a nice guy) will cryo it free.
2. Alternative to cryoing - Freeze the fuse in the home freezer, 2-4 Days recommended, let thaw in main refrigerator section for 4 hours.
3. Apply contact enhancer to end caps. If you already have established correct fuse direction be sure to maintain correct orientation.
4. Alternative to contact enhancer: paint both encapsulated with permanent violet/purple marker.
5. Wedge a thin slice of natural cork under the fuse holder as counter vibration measure.
6. Make a “tent” out of mu metal and cover fuse and fuse holder. Since mu metal is VERY CONDUCTIVE cover both sides and all edges of the mu metal with adhesive paper or vinyl.
7. Apply WA Quantum Chip for Fuse to the body of the fuse. WA Quantum Chips are still available from distributors such as VH Audio. WA Quantum Chips come in various flavors for capacitors, inductors/transducers, speakers, breaker box, cables, etc.
8. It goes without saying the fuse, even if it’s a stock fuse, will sound significantly better in one direction than the other.
Your friend and humble scribe,
Geoff Kait, Machina Dynamica |
Just to be clear nobody has mentioned Machina Dynamica products on this thread including your humble scribe. i can certainly understand the OPs fear, however. LOL Quagmire like fuse threads aren't quagmires. Give me a break. |
That’s OK, douglas_schroeder, I understand. 😬 My only intention is to add content to the thread.
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I get that a lot. Many folks think I’m a Young Turk. 🤡 |
