We Need A Separate Forum for Fuses
I still find,...when taken out of context. It's just like removing the fuse from the equation to make a point have more significance than it does."so small as to be insignificant"to be the salient point of the entire statement Again, some amps designers say that using no fuse sounds the best but it has to be used, for safety purposes. I find that to be quite a salient point. 👍 All the best, Nonoise |
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Geoffkait 3-18-2018Geoff, you've stated this explanation a number of times in various threads. However with all due respect **even if** fuses are somehow inherently directional in AC circuits to an audibly significant degree I would be surprised if there were a single competent and experienced electronics designer in the known universe who would agree with this explanation. In the case of a mains fuse, when AC current is moving toward the component in the "hot" conductor it is moving away from the component in the "neutral" conductor. And vice versa. So it is moving both toward and away from the component at all times. And a mains fuse is in series with the current in the neutral conductor as well as being in series with the current in the hot conductor, via the primary winding of the power transformer. And simultaneously, as I'm sure you will agree, energy is being transferred unidirectionally, toward the component at all times, in the form of an electromagnetic wave comprised of photons that is distinct from although intimately related to the AC current. Similar considerations apply in the case of a speaker fuse, the relevant difference simply involving terminology (the two conductors usually being referred to as positive and negative rather than as hot and neutral). I will have no further comment on this matter. Regards, -- Al |
Fuse directionality is a quagmire; it is of little use arguing it here. There is no advantage to discussing it and it only muddies the conversation. It only offends the sensibility of skeptics. The question will not be settled by discussion of directionality. I'm sure some will disagree, but imo you're wasting your time arguing it with those who don't even accept aftermarket fuses. It's similar to claimed directionality of cables. You largely waste your time debating it with someone who doesn't even think aftermarket cables are significant. |
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My 2 cents, getting back to the general topic.... I'm always interested in the technical aspects of equipment, but ultimately I listen with my ears. I became interested in fuse upgrades for the same reason that "Elizabeth" stated in her earlier post. I have a pair of Magnepan 1.7s that have a fuse in each speaker for the midrange/tweeter. I've always been concerned about the effect of the speaker vibrations on these cheap, generic fuses. I've spent a substantial amount of money on good quality cables, etc. to get the signal intact to my speakers. To then have the signal go through a cheap, thin (vibrating?) fuse wire just prior to getting to the driver made no sense to me.... I was hoping to find a fuse that would at least provide some dampening for the actual fuse wire. I purchased a pair of Synergistic Research Black fuses when they were first released. I was hoping that they would improve the upper frequencies of my Maggies (e.g. less distortion, grains, etc.). Although they did have a minimal sonic affect on the upper frequencies, to my surprise the greater effect was in the BASS. It became more prominent, with better pitch definition. This kinda blew my mind, as it was not at all what I had anticipated. All that I can assume is that the level of distortion in the mids/highs was decreased to the point that the bass was allowed to come through more readily. In any case, it was obvious to me that there was a sonic change, especially since that sonic change was not at all what I had expected. No longer being a skeptic about fuses, I decided to swap some in my electronics with SR red fuses. I started with the main power fuse in my Rogue Sphinx integrated amp. Improvements in noise floor and dynamics were immediately apparent. So then I replaced the other 2 internal fuses in the amp with the same fuses. No real obvious benefit. Just my wallet was a bit lighter.... I replaced the fuses in my Simaudio Moon CD transport/DAC with Hi-Fi Tuning fuses, as I'd read a user review recommending them for this unit. This did have some minimal, but still obvious benefits in terms of noise floor and dynamics (similar to the effects of the main power fuse in my amp). I know what my ears tell me, especially when it comes to long-term listening in a system I'm intimately familiar with and with recordings that I normally use as references. Fuses can certainly make a difference, but apparently to varying degrees depending upon the component and the synergy of the system. If you don't personally hear these differences, that's great and you've just saved yourself some money. However, I wouldn't dismiss the fact that other listeners may benefit from fuse upgrades in their own systems. Cheers all! |
In all matters of what can be heard in systems we cannot discount the influence of hearing loss, ambient room noise, and the level of equipment. That varies across the audiophile universe, so we should expect a certain amount of divergence of opinion on such things as fuses, even among those who have tried. As for those who haven't tried, these variables don't matter. ;) niskymichael, interesting that the power fuse held change, but the other signal fuses did not. Have others reported/experienced the same? |
It could be due to the mix of fuse brands that led to niskymichael's results. I've found that different fuses have different sonic effects. HiFi Tuning fuses tend to accentuate the leading edge of notes at the expense of everything else whilst PADIS fuses, after a long up and down period, tended to dull things a bit. With Brimar fuses, it was like opening that window on all things music. As for which component gave me the biggest results, it was my SACD player that took a big leap and the integrated, maybe half that, but it was of a different order. The SACD player benefited from a musical stand point and the integrated, a strength stand point. All the best, Nonoise |
I have to admit being a bit surprised by the mixed effects of the fuses in my Rogue amp as well. All of the fuses used in that component are Synergistic Research Reds. I've had personal experience a number of times over the years with how important clean AC power is for good sound. However, that amp is connected to a Shunyata power conditioner with a Shunyata cable. I didn't necessarily expect the main power fuse to be the one with the most impact sonically. I only chose to replace that first because it involved the cost of one fuse vs two... :) |
douglas_schroeder OP In all matters of what can be heard in systems we cannot discount the influence of hearing loss, ambient room noise, and the level of equipment. That varies across the audiophile universe, so we should expect a certain amount of divergence of opinion on such things as fuses, even among those who have tried. As for those who haven’t tried, these variables don’t matter. ;) >>>>Let me add (1) experience listening to and evaluating tweaks, (2) having mistakes in the system, (3) time of day, weather, (4) not following instructions and (5) use of CDs for the test that are in reverse Polarity, which would be what, about half of them? There is even (6) the spectre of reverse placebo effect, the dreaded nocebo effect, looming in the distance. 😬 An ordinary man has no means of deliverance. - old audiophile saw |
geoffkait - the notion of diretionality means to favour one direction over the other. If the current travels in two directions, there is no favoured direction, therefore directionality becomes irellevant, hence my use of the term 'indirectional'. My question to you was how can a fuse demonstrate directionality i.e. to favour a particular direction when the current travels in both. Switching the fuse direction doesn't answer it as if the fuse was directional, there would always be one direction that would suffer - so you're just swapping the problem around. And I would also go on to say that anyone who suggests that no fuse is best when fuses are put there to protect people from electric shock and potential death needs to think hard about their motivation to make such statements. |
Dear Mr Chef, I’m afraid we’re having a bit of a communications problem. I’ve explained what I meant already. You want the fuse oriented so the direction of the current or the signal is toward the speakers. And yes, we know all about why fuses are used. Which is ironic since I don’t use fuses myself. Nor do I have places to use fuses even if I wanted to. |
The last time I looked audiophiles do not (rpt not) agree on much of anything. Do you seriously think any self respecting skeptic or audiophile would agree with the notion he can’t really hear or that his system is not all that. I mean, come on! There have been cases, not many I’ll grant you, where members have reported not hearing aftermarket fuses. I kinda doubt they will agree with you, that it’s their hearing or their system that’s to blame. Besides, I trust you’re not trying to speak for all audiophiles. |
The fact that the current travels both ways doesn't negate that something in that current (say, a fuse) doesn't sound better one way over the other. If the fuse is directional (and I've heard it with three different brands), then it would sound better one way over the other. Granted, it wouldn't protect any better and no one is saying that, but it would sound better. You're conflating two different aspects. Or maybe, ignoring one. What's also a stretch is that one is advising removal of fuses when no one advocated it, except I believe, in a speaker. All the best, Nonoise |
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Hi Elizabeth, While others here disagree, IMO the most plausible explanation that has been offered regarding fuse directionality was provided in this thread by Atmasphere (Ralph). As you’ll see it recognizes the legitimacy of the many observations of fuse directionality that have been reported, but at the same time does not mean that a fuse is **inherently** directional. And note that he has performed actual measurements which support his explanation. Some excerpts from his posts in that thread: Atmasphere 5-23-2016While Ralph’s explanation may strike some as being at least somewhat implausible, even though he has performed measurements supporting it, to me and I believe to most others having electronic design backgrounds it is far less implausible than the notion that a fuse would be intrinsically directional. Also, as far as I am aware exactly one member here besides Ralph has reported inserting and re-inserting a fuse with differing rotational orientations and comparing sonics, a member by the name of SGordon1. Like Ralph he found that significant sonic differences resulted, and encouraged others to try this. Regarding your thoughtful hypothesis about magnetic fields, the magnetic field surrounding a fuse would have a magnitude and be in a direction corresponding to the current flowing through the fuse, which I would not expect to differ as a function of which way the fuse is inserted. Aside, that is, from the small effects on magnitude of the phenomenon Ralph has described. Best regards, -- Al |
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There is no doubt magnetic fields are bad for the sound. That’s why there are low frequency high permeability metal absorbers for large transformers and similar high frequency high permeability metal shields/absorbers for speaker magnets. Fuses themselves can be shielded greatly reducing magnetic field effects on the fuse/sound, but you would undoubtedly find the fuse was still directional so it’s very unlikely magnetism causes directionality in fuses in particular and wire generally. I don’t even have to bring up the self induced magnetic field. All of the wire in the component is directional, not just the fuse. Cable manufacturers control directionality of cables and power cords for a reason. To remove all the guesswork and to improve the sound. Whereas cables are controlled for directionality and are marked with directional arrows, fuses usually must be tried both ways even when they are marked with a symbol or arrow. Perhaps fuse holders should be manufactured better, who knows, in any case rotating the fuse in a fuse holder would produce random results so the fuse holder theory cannot be the overriding one. The sonic results are also quite peculiar and notable for fuse directionality and cannot be attributed to the imperfections of fuse holders. In other words there are recognizable and repeatable distortions in the sound of fuses in the wrong direction, unlike a “weak” connection in a fuse holder. |
I've posted this link on connector tests where it was determined that connectors are the villain. The author would measure and leave and came back and measure again only to get a different result, all the time. Nothing was touched or changed. Bare ends were determined to be the best way to connect a wire. This was in a military application where it was crucial to have consistency in reconnecting equipment which happens to operate in the same range as audio equipment. So can a fuse holder be considered a connector? If so, is it as unreliable in being consistent as other connectors? Could that account for the differences when measured after rotating a fuse in it's holder? If so, it wouldn't account for sounding different when reversed. Just a thought, which I'm sure will be shot down. All the best, Nonoise |
If so, then something else is afoot as I’ve clearly heard a better presentation when the fuse was in the correct orientation with three different brands. The odds of just breaking contact and reinserting a fuse on three different occasions doesn’t hold water as I’ve even put the fuses back in the wrong way only to hear the difference and take them back out and put them in the right way (not three times but once was enough). Maybe Clark’s three laws applies:
4. Any sufficient advance in audio perception is indistinguishable from magic when it can’t be measured. All the best, Nonoise |
One indisputable fact for sure is you change a fuse and you also change the connection. No way to get around that one! Everyone knows connections do matter. Right? How do you get around that one in order to be sure its the fuse and not just the connection changing the sound? If you treat a regular fuse with contact enhancing gunk does that make it a fancy fuse? Inquiring minds want to know! What if the properties of the gunk changes with age (like most of us and not usually for the better) and the connection gets worse over time not better? is there some high end gunk remover for that? |
As I've already said, I've swapped out three different fuses and they all sound better one way than another and when replacing one set of fuses, I put them in the wrong way and it was immediately apparent. Once you orient the fuses by placing them so that they read the same as the print on the PCB, or the other way (using the orientation as reference), it isn't due to chance reinsertion. It's the orientation of the fuse. If you're saying that it's due to reinsertion, then why does it consistently sound better one way than the other? Also, tell me how the contacts of the holder change when inserting something circular. All the best, Nonoise |
So does an 18 gauge cable sound better than a 10 gauge cable? Does any fuse sound as good as no fuse? If no fuse truly sounds better, why can't fuses sound differently? I've never had the heart to purchase any crazy expensive fuses, but I have twice purchased cheap designer fuses on Fleabay. They are called Aucharm..... They were not a different world over stock fuses, but you could hear them. Still don't have the guts to buy mega buck fuses, but I can say that fuses can make some sort of difference, for me not huge, but these fuses were like $4 or so. |
mapman One indisputable fact for sure is you change a fuse and you also change the connection. No way to get around that one! Everyone knows connections do matter. Right? How do you get around that one in order to be sure its the fuse and not just the connection changing the sound? By careful testing. mapman If you treat a regular fuse with contact enhancing gunk does that make it a fancy fuse? Inquiring minds want to know! Sure, why not? mapman What if the properties of the gunk changes with age (like most of us and not usually for the better) and the connection gets worse over time not better? is there some high end gunk remover for that? What if it doesn’t change? What if electrons get old and cranky? |
@timlub Thanks for thinking it through and taking the $4 challenge. 👍 Not too dear a price to see for oneself if there is something to all of this. It opens minds as well as doors. I just wish more were willing to try instead of decry. Don't take it personally if you're deluged with demands for double blind testing or that you're delusional or suffer from expectation bias. For some, that $4 could have gotten a subscription to Skeptics Weekly. 😄 All the best, Nonoise |
nonoise3,110 posts03-21-2018 8:48amAs I've already said, I've swapped out three different fuses and they all sound better one way than another and when replacing one set of fuses, I put them in the wrong way and it was immediately apparent. Really!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kw32fiasUSs Cheers George |
Okay. As I’ve said elsewhere and here, The HiFi Tuning fuses that I used were the Silver Stars. They were okay but I could never get the highs on my speakers to have as much presence as the rest of the spread until I reversed them, some two years later out of boredom. I was never a believer in directionality until then. Then I had all the highs I used to have with my previous speakers, along with better presence and definition. After awhile, I tried PADIS and though they showed promised, they had that rollercoaster break in period where they got better, and then dulled, and finally after a long break in, settled in on a very mid range emphasis with somewhat recessed highs compared to the HiFi fuses, with a bass that was fulsome but not that well defined. With Brimar fuses, I get everything that seems to mirror what others have said about SR Black and Blue fuses at a fraction of the cost. Detail, extension, clarity, definition, sound staging, presence, musicality, coherence, separation and anything else that can be attributed to great music playback. Add in strength and dynamics as well. Looking back, I’d say that the HiFi fuses (Silver Star at least) favor the leading edge of the note at the expense of everything else. Attack is great and they grab you at first listen but leave you wanting more after hearing something like Brimar fuses. It would be nice if someone could compare SR Black or Blue fuses with Brimar to see how they fare. Brimar are sold only from Asia and seem to be made for asian and European markets as an alternative to what we can get stateside. They are made by Telos (Germany). They go through very similar treatments (cryo and a form of Quantum treatment) and use premium metals (gold plated silver end caps and silver fuse wire). Hope that helps. All the best, Nonoise |
douglas_schroederThat’s all we need another disguised "snake oil" thread that was shut down like this one was 5mins ago, just to get fuse talk going for the gullible to question it and purchase >$100 fuses. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/simple-snake-oil-detection Like they say any talk, bad or good (even voodoo) in the right ratios is good for sales in the end. You only need 50% of the gullible to believe the "good" and you’ve generated sales, with a product that could have 500% or more markup. Cheers George |
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