My children growing older and leaving home has allowed me to get back into our common interest. I find myself wanting a new pair of speakers and I’m torn between some vintage models that interested me in easier times, but were not obtainable due to budgetary limitations, and current models with their state of the art drivers. Case in point: B&W 801 Matrix Anniversary vs. anything in the 702/703. I would like to hear people’s thoughts.
Some flagship equipment from the late 80’s and on can be had at ridiculously low cost. I wouldn’t worry about recapping or reforming unless/until the unit needs it. Check out the used equipment just like you would check a used car, don’t take blanket statements that all The parts have to be updated, that’s just throwing money away. Can you get exceptional sound from vintage.....absolutely. Comparisons.......well, for cost if you compare flagship of then to flagship of now you’ll find huge depreciation makes vintage flagship super affordable. if you compare sound quality then as stated by others, some vintage flagship was truly amazing with many examples given. Who cares what technologically advanced innards new equipment contains. The work that went into vintage equipment achieved an end result package that should satisfy most anyone. Problem is shopping vintage will require set up and listening which is multi fold more problematic than new. As an aside, I think it’s more fun and satisfying shopping vintage gear, just a thrill when you do find something that’s right.
There are so many wonderful sounding and beautiful pieces of vintage equipment, it's really a great way to revitalize your hobby. One of the things we've discovered at Deer Creek Audio is that putting Dirac Live room correction in the mix with high-end classic systems can bring the audio performance up to that of the latest modern designs.
This guy just loves to troll! One of the most ridiculous, ignorant comments I’ve heard from this guy! I have heard several of the tekton speakers, and owned a few. They actually sound very good. But to say that nothing comes close in a vintage sense, is just pure trolling! Just one of many offerings from altec smokes the tekton very easily IMHO. They were made in he 60’s, used some of he best Alnico drivers made, even by today’s standards, and can sound truly world class in the right system. Bet I’m getting a rousing Amen from many here. I’m telling you, this guy just does this to piss people off. Dont comment to this guy, maybe he’ll go somewhere else!
If you are happy with the way your system sounds then I would leave it alone. Some times that is the hardest part about this hobby.
I believe that newer isn't necessarily better.
If you are looking to improve the sound - there are several ways to make improvements without replacing speakers. ( more power = cleaner sound)
If you feel that you absolutely need new speakers, then I would look beyond B&W. There are a lot of option especially in a used market.
While Class-D amplification is the new thing- there really hasn't been very much improvement in basic component design over the years. Improvements -have- come from better quality parts. Capacitors are much better now than 40-50-60yrs ago, same with resistors and wiring. A good basic design can be made to sound better and very competitive with new equipment just from a careful restoration using new high quality parts. Several have mentioned the MAC 240, certainly. And there are many other examples. A restored HK CIT II is about $3500-$4000. Are there any new 60wpc tube amps available for the same price that sound better ? Many say the new Mac 275 mk (whatever version) sounds inferior.... Audio Research D76, At the other end- a carefully restored ST-70 is about $800. You would have to spend -alot- more to meaningfully better it. A VanAlstine Super Pas3 is an outstanding preamp that can be found for $600-$800. And so on.
Speakers however have seen considerable improvement through design and implementation. Use of CAD and modeling have led to very audible advancements in what is possible at any given price point. The proliferation of ribbon tweeters at modest cost has led to great speakers that outperform their price points.
IMHO older speakers (there are exceptions) just do not sound as good as newer speakers. Transient response is not as precise, treble not as clean, a few more cabinet resinances and so on. May people gloss over these flaws out of a sense of nostalgia. Someone lusted after JBL monitors 45yrs ago, and can now afford to build a system around them. JBL understands and introduced a new L100, but is it a good $4k speaker......
My system is a combo of old and new- older amps, preamps, and TT, with newer speakers. Works for me.
Interesting discussion. There may never be a consensus of what constitutes the best loudspeaker due to psychoacoustics, HRTF and confirmation biases. That said, here’s what we know has and has not changed over time:
design technology (CAD -- construction and measurements)
digital recording and playback (bits)
room acoustical design and implementation (studio and home)
What has not:
anatomical design of the ear (biology)
vibrational excitement of a medium (how sound is produced)
wavelengths of audible signals
unique emotional responses to sound from listeners
I’m sure the above list is not comprehensive, but it represents some of the obvious variables which affect why we might like, or not like, what we hear from a loudspeaker. On the bright side, it’s such a subjective topic that there will always be something to talk about. :-)
The comment that 70s speakers were voiced for the music that was most popular at the time was spot-on. That music was rock (the Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, The Who, Grand Funk RR, etc). The speakers were built with full-range capability being the most important factor (no subs back then), while accuracy was mostly an afterthought. JBL was considered the best for rock, while brands like Advent, AR, and KLH went for a more balanced presentation. Mated with good electronics from that era that have been kept in good shape, those combos still provide a sound that has a lot of meat on its bones IMO. My little Pioneer SA-7100 is a delight, driving either a pair of large Advents or a pair of ADS L-810s from the 80s, and I don't feel the need for a subwoofer. A Musical Fidelity A-308 and B&W CDM 9NTs satisfy my cravings for a more refined sound when I'm in that kind of mood. In my book, it's all good and we should just enjoy the ride.
There have been great strides in modern production film capacitors, resistors, inductors. Check out brands like Jupiter, Duelund, Jantzen, Audyn, Miflex, Mundorf. Could go on and on. You can 'tune' speakers to individual preference with judicious choice of components. My present Klipschorns most definitely don't sound like any stock Klipschorn. The necessity of replacing certain crossover parts, and perhaps speaker surrounds as mentioned above, are an advantage of purchasing vintage, IMO. You've already opened up speaker, perfect chance to upgrade, no warranty issues.
Not willing to open up and mod or replace, stick to modern.
Vintage will likely require some crossover parts replacement, but I'd say lots of current loudspeakers would benefit from same. One of greatest bang for buck upgrades is replacing common run of mill capacitors, resistors, inductors in crossovers.
I thought that with millercarbon shilling for Tekton that we finally caught a break from his constant promoting of Synergistic Research. I guess I was wrong...
"
Maybe someone so sure there was great wire back then can name me the 1970's era power cord they would put up against a circa 1990's Synergistic Research Master Coupler? This should be good..."
Vintage has inherent issues with things wearing out. Electrolytic Filter caps for example do not last forever and need to be replaced. Contacts, relays, potentiometers, Lpads all oxidize over time and can cause problems. Some woofer surrounds deteriorate and have to be replaced. Unless you are willing to address ALL such issues rather that employing a piecemeal approach, vintage is not going to work out in the long run in my opinion.
I love vintage speakers. Problem is there are many things that can age in a speaker. I worked for AR (Acoustic Research) in the mid 1970's. I bought some 10pi speakers in 1980. I pulled them out a few years back and brought them back to near new shape. That cost around $500.00, more than I paid for the speakers.
They still sound great, still eat lots of power. I gave them to a friend of mine to start building his system.
Another thing - Used speakers on eBay can be a great deal, for what they are.
Funny back in the 70s my 901s were killer.JBL 100s still go for crazy prices.Carver Amps,Rotel,Macintosh still hold there own.Everything has a place .Sure new speakers .But back then you could get top of the line for hundreds not thousands.
I'm sorry, but the Tekton Double Impact looks as if it would sound truly horrible. What is it: A Bose 901 based on tweewers, rather than midranges, plus a bunch of subs? Jeez! No one needs all of those 14 tweeters, unless he can't design one to take more than a watt or so. I will bet that with the 8 subs, one with a bit of midrange thrown in, does have at least double impact.
Nothing has change from BC TO AD as far as our hearing. Audio equipment has evolved. My ears perfer the sound of music through vintage equipment. I am no hater when it comes to new audio equipment. Perfection has evolved over every single piece of audio equipment from the rca cables speaker cables dac etc. I embrace all the different varieties of audio equipment manufacturers we have to choose from. Don't get caught up in all the BS hype in audio. Just listen to what your ears are telling you not the salesman. The salesman can turn you on to a lot of equipment to choose from but ultimately your individual ears will tell you the truth. B&W 801 are great speakers . Some days I am more reserved and some days I want to jamm at loud volume. I pick and choose my equipment to sound great to my ears but also take the abuse at louder volume and have the capability to sound damn good without breaking a sweat.
Boxes distort. Horns belong on poles at HS football stadiums. Pure electrostatics are brittle at volume and cause very quick "listening fatigue"--i.e., "THAT"S ENOUGH" Hybrids require too many items in the chain and degrade input/output (Fulton Modular J and Levinson HQD, for example.)
Unfortunately, not everyone has a room or equipment that work with them.
When you hear only what goes in, you have to deal with what produces it.
In 2019, before lockdown, I was in a similar position. Having owned a pair of B&W 801 Matrix S2s (with upgraded XOs) for 28 years, I felt an itch I needed to scratch and went to my local dealer in Belfast to listen to KEF R11 which had just come out. The KEFs cost £4,000 and sounded "nice" but not as good as my 801Ms. The dealer agreed that in order to get anything significantly better I'd probably need to spend at least £20K. At that point the itch stopped.
However, that made me think. We are being told by marketing people that anything new is better than what came before. In my experience that certainly is not true. It doesn't matter whether we are talking about audio equipment, cars, motorcycles, or bicycles. The newer gear probably involves less effort but does not generate the same emotional involvement. I enjoy riding my 1982 10 speed Bianchi steel-framed bike just as much as I do riding my new custom 22 speed titanium bike. Yes, I'm faster on the Enigma but I enjoy riding the Bianchi just as much, it's a different experience. Same goes for cars: more gizmos don't get you there any faster, they just add showroom appeal (and cost more when they break).
Newer is not necessarily better - it is different, and we all should figure out if that difference is worth paying for. My 801s have a great sound stage, fantastic imaging, they are very accurate (they do let you know if a recording is cr@p), and their bass extension is good, although not as good as on my other system (Meridian amplification &CD with ProAc Studio 1s - bought in 1988!, and dual BK XXLS400 subs). I might buy another pair of XXLS400s to go with the 801s, that £1,000 is a lot cheaper than buying a new set of speakers for 20 times that amount.
So, mjjw I would say that ideally you should listen to both the 801 Anniversaries and the 703s and then make up your mind. If you can't, ask yourself whether you'd rather own an older legendary speaker (pride of ownership undoubtedly is a big plus) or a new run-of-the-mill model? Will the rest of your equipment be up to the revealing nature of the 801s? These are monitor speakers, designed to reveal a recording's good AND bad bits. By definition, they will also reveal any short-comings in your signal chain: bullish!t in, bullsh!t out...
I would say that these speakers will get you 90% out on the curve of diminishing returns, where 100% is a cost-is-no-object seven figure system. You just have to make sure that the rest of your system can do them justice.
True vintage wine will kill anything new but you have to go way
back to prior to 1965 and buy the impossibly expensive French wine of
that era and when you do you will not want to drink anything else.
True vintage speakers will kill any new model but you have to go way back to prior to 1965 and buy the impossibly large full range systems of that era and when you do you will not want to listen to anything else.
I think the real question here is whether or not speakers which were reference quality when they were new 20 to 30 years ago have similar sound quality to reference speakers of today. The cost difference between these two options can be a factor of 10 or more.
I own a pair of Thiel CS6 speakers, a Krell KRC-2 pre, and Krell KSA 300S amp. I went to AXPONA in 2017 and had a chance to listen to a lot of systems that cost in the high five figures to well over 6 figures, with one being over a million dollars. I came away with the observation that my system holds up very well to any system under $100k. I did hear some amazing speakers that were $70K+ (MBL 101 X-Treme, large YG, big Vandersteens, etc.) but most of the systems didn't sound as good as mine in general. They might have had one characteristic that stood out but overall they didn't strike me as something I had to own.
I came away from this experience believing that sound quality hasn't improved by leaps and bounds over the last 25 years unless you get into the price stratosphere. The corollary to this is that high end used speakers are a real bargain. Reviewers drooled over the top models from B&W, Revel, Wilson, and Thiel a couple decades ago. However, this industry depends on the perception that sound quality is always improving so that we stay on the upgrade treadmill. Certainly there has been some improvement but the cost of this improvement is very high.
oldhvymec, you aught to know by now I don't pull punches. Horrible? In the universe of horrible things my opinion of Tekton loudspeakers is way down the list. I would rather think most people could care less. They just think I am politically inept and they would be right.
Lots and lots of opinions there, Most probably not helpful.
Go and listen to speakers for yourself. Then you might get some idea of what you should consider buying. You then should know what sound qualities you prefer, and those that you detest.
Don't allow yourself to be swayed by people whom you've never met about speakers you've never even heard. That way you'll only need to look in the mirror if you've made a poor choice.
When I was figuring out what to buy, I looked at used Klipsch. Afterall, some models have been around since the 40s. Lots of fans. A couple vendors popped up who specialize in new parts. By the time I would have updated Heresy or Cornwall, I could buy new speakers for several thousand.
I have not decided if my next speakers will be used or new. I will probably limit the age of used to 10-15 years. I want them to work for many more years. I think I will avoid speakers from the 90s or older.
Some while back I reclaimed my mid- 80's Proac Studio 2's from extended loan to my parents. Put them back in my current system whilst listing them on eBay. They sounded stunning. You can't replicate the build quality of the cabinets (for the modest outlay), by current standards. Marine ply rather than MDF, 2" inch thick baffle and real wood veneers of choice. The better the gear the better the Proacs use to sing. On the subject of cabling, I recall my Hi-fi shop had one specialist speaker cable for sale, as for mains leads as MC says there weren't any in the UK. I remember my dealer ringing me to tell me about Van den Hul's Revelation speaker cable when it first came out - specialist cable really was a rarity item back then. Hobson's choice so to speak.
Can only relate my experience. In the day, I had biamped Dahlquist DQ10’s with double subwoofers, driven by an Audio Research SP6B and either two GAS Ampzilla or else a C-J MV75A-1 driving the DQ10’s. Pretty good. But my modern electronics- Cary SLP05 ultimate upgrade and SSt Son of Ampzilla II just crushes my old electronics, even after they had been rebuilt and recapped. My ATC speakers have better resolution
If the music you listen to is from the vintage easier times then buy some vintage speakers...the best you can find from the era.....they were voiced for the music of the day and they still hold their own with most music from today,,,,again if you go vintage do your research and get good ones from that era,,,,Tannoy and Klipsch are really expensive...and good but you can do some research and find others for less
Today’s best is tomorrow’s vintage. It sounds good today, take care of it and it’ll sound good tomorrow. Today’s worst is also tomorrow’s vntage, so you can’t generalize very well. Good is still good even if it’s not THE BEST! (He says as he jams out to some glass tubes and a 15 year old cool beast of an amp).
Poking my head back in this forum once every 6 months and nothing has changed just like a 40 yr running soap opera. Same characters, same script, same drama....
In many instances, vintage speakers took a completely different approach than modern design. Designed for a higher, steady impedance, they could coax gorgeous sonics from tube amps. Why do you think Art Dudley coveted the sound of both his 1966 Altec Valencia's and newer Flamenco's? It depends on the amp you're pairing with and the type of music you appreciate most. With 300b's or really any SET circuit the sound can be texturally gorgeous. Certainly much more to my liking than the sound produced by some bright blue 4 ohm clunky box that looks like a DIY job made in someone's garage.
Ya the 110Z was hot Rod by two guys Modeferi of Mac fame and a great tech w ears here in WA - Elite Audio Tech only works on Mac, logging road for driveway to shop.. the Apogees are wonderful, but so are my ESL 63… nothing in that room is stock… well the NAIM is… good on ya Heavy aspiration should always exceed energy
tomic6018,396 posts07-05-2021 4:15pmwell….a properly upgraded (Mike Samra )and maintained MC240 with the right tubes ( Andy at VTS ) is probably as far as ya can get a transformer tube amp. The MC240 xformer one of the best ever.
I looked at your page. I could see the Samra’s PS upgrade in your 240.. He sure could get a 240 to sing.. You should hear the way he does up a C20 NOW.. He did up the phono stage like I’ve NEVER heard on a Mac.. I added Super Hexfreds and Vishay copper resistors.. after he did his magic..
I have to many irons in the fire and ZERO energy to get er done.. :-(
I have a C11 (Samra) I’ve never pulled out of the box. I have new glass for it to boot.. Fixed a Bass pot too.
REMOTES.. that is my problem.. a darn remote.. I use a Parasound Zpre3 in the tape loop on the Mac valve preamps... Very nice.. and adds a little DAC with sub out and remote sub volume control.. Nifty little preamp and a C20 to boot.. I LOVE IT.. You should hear what a C20 (S) does to ANY class d.. It’s like magic.. MX110z for that matter..
Have you tinkered with any of the class ds, Electro-stats and that MX110z. I bet it would blow your mind too.. Nothing like a planar designs and Ribbons.. I keep looking at Sound Labs and Apogee :-). Before I kick.. LOL
Most vintage is outdated, capacitors in the day Suck, after 15 years of steady use caps dry out and loose their detail ,if they don’t leak , resistors cement ,or even carbon warm but veiled. the only thing that could be a gem was vacuum tube transformers mostly from Japan like Tango or other brands ,, As Millercarbon said Nostalgia with it $$ to rebuild it . Their were great designs in the past but rebuild with modern Quality parts is my advise. I have been there done that . I many times buy modern ,but I upgrade or mod to a much higher level in parts quality. I rebuild my own Loudspeaker Xovers for example, in the vast majority parts are average at best.What most Audiophiles don’t realize is that only 25% on average actually goes into the cost of the parts,the rest overhead and markup. That’s how Modwright is so successful.
There are plenty of vintage speakers and electronics that still sound incredible. The B&Ws are a very nice choice especially for the prices. Upgrade a few parts and even better.
We recently compared 3 Class A solid state amps a few current and one not so current the BEL amp. 5 out of 5 picked the old BEL amp.
If you are someone who thinks vintage cannot compare to todays components I would be more than happy to compare my Lafayette KT-550 tube power amp to whatever you have. Those hand wound transformers cannot be duplicated today which provides the magic - think dynaco - simple design but good transformers.
BTW the old KEF 104.2 and up still sound dame good. Find a pair of the Sony monitors SS-ARs or something like that still outperform many monitors today.
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