Ultimate Turntable search...OMA K5 or ?

To my eyes the K3 has a sort of Industrial Steam Punk vibe going on. Very interesting. I wish the Esoteric came in an exotic black finish.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As a user of a Log Fire for home heating, I can't recommend cutting up furniture coated with a finishing material to be used as Kindling.

If a Chimney Fire occurs, a Insurance Company will be taking swabs of the Flue Liner. Any Chemical Substances discovered that are not a deposit from wood will leave the property uninsured.

The only wood to be burnt is pure natural untreated woods.  

It is also worth noting this if a property is being moved into that has a Wood Fire that is intended to be used as working fire. The fire may have had all sorts burnt in it by the previous owner/owners, if a swab is taken at a time of need for financial support, it might not be offered through no fault made of ones own.

@lewm right.... no reason to argue about aesthetics and personal preferences... people buy it for the way it sounds. 

 

That’s beautiful, too.

Art deco? This is an art deco record player:

And I wish my mother had never told me to make kindling of ours.

Here's the thing: I like it, and you and some others don't.  Yet, amazingly, we are all probably good persons. It does not trouble me that you and others do not like it. None of us can afford it anyway. Also, I don't think Richard Krebs was first and foremost striving for recognition as a creator of beautiful sculptures. I think he was following the engineering dictum: form follows function.

Both harken back to Art Deco designs of the 30s.

I am a big fan of Art Deco and its off-springs like the Bauhaus but IMHO the K3 is not Art Deco. You can call it art like you can call anything one creates art, regardless to me, visually, it's a mess and has no relations to Art Deco. 
(never seen or heard it so my opinion is as irrelevant as it gets :) )

I have been investigating the R&D into organic origin resin composites and looking to see if they have yet been utilised for Audio Purposes.

I have recently discovered info about organic resin composites of which one type is now used within the Formula 1 Industry.

I have now learned the Esoteric Grandioso T1 has used this same material type in part of its construction. 

I can't help but sense the wood used on the chassis is a Phenolic Resin Impregnated Densified Wood. I am OK to be proved wrong, but with Linn now utilising the same material it makes sense to guess that way.   

Dear Raul, OMA wrote the ad copy.  OMA is not really the manufacturer; they are sellers in the US.  I am sure the specs could be accessed if needed. I don't feel like we disagree but perhaps you do.

Dear @lewm  : Thwe issue is not what you posted. Manufacturers at those high prices like to " talk " showing no single spec.

 

@mattdrummer  said that transient response is the critical subject for him and I have to tell 2 things:  first is that matt is only the second gentleman  in this and  other forums I attend or attended that mentioned transient response that's is where MUSIC reproduction at home start and is not only critical but the most important characteristic in any room/system at any price levels.

Second is that those two TT specs ( w/f and speed stability ) are the most important for that TRANSIENT RESPONSE . Everything is important but always where starts the MUSIC reproduction develpment is there.

Btw, the other audiophile that posted about was me.

 

R.

But always, always, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  I still like the looks of the K3.  I even like the Schroeder arm that goes with it.  Both harken back to Art Deco designs of the 30s.  If you don't like Art Deco, that's OK with me. I also like the GW and Golden Gate bridges that share a certain look with the Schroeder.

Now that thing in your photo? I find it rather off-putting; the tonearms and the big feet seem to form a barrier around the platter, where I have to get to in order to deal with the LP.  I don't fancy two-arm TTs, because the rear mounted tonearm is difficult to manipulate and because it is very difficult also to clean the stylus of the cartridge mounted at the rear.

Oftentimes a radically different design seems jarring and ugly at first and then with time it grows on you. It is integral to human behavior-we are initially drawn to the subjective impressions we are accustomed to. One need only look to automobile design. But as with the Pontiac Aztec and any number of other cars, sometimes ugly just remains ugly. Besides bringing as many problems to the table (pun) as they solve, I have never seen a radial tracking arm that I consider to be esthetically pleasing. I agree that the Schroeder designed arm to the OMA is hideous and reminiscent of a rust-belt highway bridge. The Caliburn Cobra arm always looked hideous to me too. That said, so many of the all-out no-expense spared products have a certain sameness to them-looking like moon-rover equipment. Tech-Das excels at this. 

 

I was intruiged to see how the OMA K3 looks. My goodness it is ugly.

I mean, not completely charmless like the congealed aluminium turd that is the american sound as2000,  but close. From the decks under discussion here, i find the Esoteric very appealing. But the one that keeps me awake is the SAT turntable (and arm)...if i had the cash, that would be my choice.

But i do like the design language of the Esoteric

 @testpilot I am pleased the link was to your liking.

I'm doing a proportion of the Xmas Day Dinner and have a little time to hunt around, whilst hovering around in the Kitchen 🎅

As stated earlier in the thread, I have experienced a Prototype TT, that is designed to be contactless driven on the platter.

I have just searched out images from the event from June 2019 and have the TT in a image. As said it has a Substantial Depth Platter, approx' 5" inches deep, which I now recollect is produced from Delrin. The off board Electronic Control devices designed by the owner of 'Long Dog Audio' are also seen in the images

The Demo' given was carried out after a period given for demo's of variances of Modified Idler Drives, where replays were via a 'Long Dog Audio' Phonostage and 211 Valve Amp and a impressive design and performing OB Speaker.

The Contactless Drive Prototype was demo'd with a SME V/12, through the same Phonostage, 211 Valve Amp and the impressive design and performing OB Speaker. 

The recollection has been, after the event, I contacted my friend and well known Vintage DD Overhauler/Modifier, where I was informing them, the demo' given was very much in keeping with the experience we had, when we demo'd my Heavily Modified Idler Drive to his overhauled/modified SP10 Mk II.

The Prototype stood out in a notable way for its attraction over the other TT's being demo'd. Would the Prototype be compelling enough in a comparison to my now in use DD TT, to encourage myself to move on from my now in use overhauled/modified SP10 Mk II?

The SP10 Mk II demo' given, had a profound impact, where it compelled myself to move on from the long term use of Idler Drive TT's.

 

@pindac , now that’s a beautiful turntable!

If anyone reading this thread has been intrigued by contactless drive for a TT's Platter, the link is showing a TT designed and produced by another advocate of the SP10 Mk III. This is a product that has a longer life as a product, resulting in info about its performance being easier to discover.

It is a TT that has been discussed on The Gon. 

The present used price, shows it is a TT, that is not commanding too much of a price to experience technology that uses contactless drive.

 

  

I think Richard Krebs used the SP10 mk3 as his benchmark when designing and developing the K3. So it’s quite likely to exceed SP10 Mk3 and SP10R specs in its performance. Still, it is surprising that OMA don’t publish specs.

Plus the original SOTA Mat and Basis Audio TT clamp and you are done with the Technics.

 

R.

Dear @mattdrummer  :  " is my interest in time accuracy. Thus, direct drive. Time domain is just better with direct drive. And it’s that lifelike transient response that I am after.  "

The main any good design characteristic is speed stability, with out that characteristic your statement never appears. Transient response is where MUSIC natural color BORN in a live event or home reproduction.

Esoteric is not really good about and at its asking price I think is a poor performer:

0.01% and w/f a really poor 0.06 % when the SP10MK3 shows: 0.001 % ( speed ) and a w/ 0.01% and those specs are critical for what you are looking for can appears.

The OMA through reviews and by its site speak of several importan TT characteristic but you can't find out any of those specs , even less information from the other DD by SAT.

TheTT you are looking for needs to have no sound by it self, it should be jus: blackness and if you read reviews of MF the TTs develops all kind of souen levels because in reality he is reviewing the tonearm/cartridge combinations.

Now, all audiophiles including reviewers own different roo/systems and more important is that even that all of us like the MUSIC reproduction this does not says each one of us MUSIC taste is exactly the same because each one of us has different MUSIC reproduction priorities.

So you need to trust in you and your fist hand experiences. Now if OMA shows you with its TT measurements that at least even the Technics MK3 specs in the K5 then you can decide for it.

I doubt OMA can shows you any  critical audio item specs. They like to talk and we can read in its site ( example ) tha its phono stage is way accurated on its RIAA and guess what: no single spec about anywhere the audio world.

Now, you can look to these SP10 MK3 of this Agoner gentleman:

Living Room | Virtual Listening Room (audiogon.com)

and you can choose the tonearm or tonearm of your preferences and a plattform as the Minus-K or the top of that line and you will have that precise transient response.

Several audiophiles do not like or do not care about specs and I could understand their way of audio life because they choose what they like.

You have the xperience need it to choose a new TT. Trusting in manufacturers could be or not a good strategy because at the end the manufacturer wants that you buy its products.

You like OMA and OMA convince you about its products but what that gentleman Jonathan told you:

" would explain to me the benefits of high efficiency speakers and low wattage tube amplification and I was quite skeptica..... "

 

it's not exactly true. His main issue is that he manufacture speakers, electronics, TTs an the like and he at the end is a seller.

 

 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

 

 

In the case of the Esoteric, the rotating magnetic motor is outside the circumference of the platter, as in a conventional rim drive. But the skirt around the circumference of the platter itself is ferromagnetic in order to respond to the driver. One has to assume that Esoteric engineers accounted for potential issues, one of which would not be to induce up and down motion of the cartridge, I think.

Art is a personal thing. Every machine has an aesthetic factor, but if I interviewed 100 people who visited the Guggenheim Motorcycle exhibit I would get 100 different opinions as to which was the most beautiful bike. Look at the opinions of the OMA table on this thread. It is ugly as hell. IMHO all of these tables are ugly but the OMA takes the cake. I think the Basis Inspiration is the best looking table made. The principle driver  behind which of these luxury turntables someone choses to buy is the aesthetic one, not sound quality. I might add that given the same arm and cartridge it is highly unlikely anyone could reliably identify any of these turntables blinded. I actually doubt anyone could tell them apart from an RP10. What you see determines what you hear when sonic differences are subtle. 

What Michael Fremer owns is not a good indicator of anything. According to reliable sources his hearing is shot. You have to yell at him to have a conversation. He does have what must be the worlds largest private record collection. Kudos.
 

@lewm 

Just what you want directly under your cartridge, rotating magnets with alternating poles no less. I envision the cartridge bouncing along. 33.3 bounces per revolution. Could this be Hip Hop?

 

Mike, I finally found a good diagram or anatomical drawing of the workings of the Esoteric, on your thread on WBF.  That drawing is worth a thousand words.  Now I see how it works.  It is a rim drive where nothing touches the rim, which is probably what you were trying to say.  Until now, I envisioned that the motor was situated directly well below the platter such that the rotating magnets were concentric with the platter itself, as is the case for the Transrotor TMD and the EAR Disc Master, where in both of those cases the rotating magnet structure is driven by a belt from an outboard motor. In shorthand, the Esoteric is a contact-less rim drive.

i like the K3 and K5. think they are works of art and legit. some time back i honestly did try to buy a K3 but could not work it out, so there is that. 

If one reads the 'T1 sales speil' , the reader is steered by the author, to take on board  the notion, that the creation of other Competitors Companies TT's are born from an inferior foundation supporting the process through to the items production.

The T1 has made an entry to the Market Place with a stand that isn't 'taking any prisoners' , especially seems to suggest ones most expensive options are for the Buyers best if it is overlooked. 

As for the T1, shortly before Covid, I was demo'd a TT, that the Owner of Long Dog Audio had been commissioned to design the Electronics.

From recollection this has been a TT, that is driven with no coupling to the massive Platter. I do believe I have heard a TT with an SME V/12, sharing a propulsion for a Platter similar to how the T1 works. The Prototype I had been demo'd may be a Production Model in today's market. 

Performance notwithstanding, I find it interesting that some would reject the K5 based on its looks alone.  In my eyes, at least, it is a relatively bling-less design. Do we want "some" bling, but not too much, for our megabucks?  I see it as an homage to Art Deco, and I like Art Deco.

When it comes to experience, Fremer got rid of his Caliburn and now owns a K3. He didnt buy the SAT (which I have crossed of my list since it is basically a modified SP-10 motor) or TechDas or even the Esoteric (which is magnetic and not direct drive). And since Fremer used to have the Caliburn in his system, I am quite interested in his preferences. But as I mentioned in my original post, I am very curious if anyone has real life experience with the K3/K5? Or any tables with similar tech?

 

@mattdrummer

i think he would have bought the Esoteric had he not already bought the K3 prototype. as it’s character is more middle ground in terms of sound signature (felt it split the difference between the K3 and TechDAS Zero), but much more flexible platform (three arms with reasonable mounting options) for his purposes. he loved the build quality, tech innovation and elegance, and a much smaller footprint too. just my take on his review and other off line feedback on it.

carefully read the review comments on his serious respect for the design innovation. he was very impressed by the whole thinking behind the Esoteric.

the K3 is a magnificent extreme turntable, but a poor review tool. and even if he had the space for the TD Zero, he could not (or would not) afford it even at the accommodation price.

“Mr Krebs had considerable influence.” How ironic! The K5 and K3 are Richard Krebs’s babies, completely. OMA has marketing in the USA. OMA may have had input on superficial cosmetics and on pricing. Richard worked to perfect the K5 for more than a decade.

I guess it takes all kinds, as they say. I, for one, find the OMA K3 to be quite beautiful. it’s refreshing to see such a striking design for a high end turntable. most tables in this stratosphere have an overbuilt and bulky appearance. and I have found the look of tables like the esoteric, techdas, basis to be quite boring. they all really do look the same to me. at least the K5 has an elegance that separates it from the pack.

I can typically find beauty in most audio products, but the OMA turntable has the looks that only a mother can love. For aesthetics alone, the OMA would be off my list. 

Take a look at Origin Live Voyager S with Agile Tonearms.

Can’t get past the OMA aesthetic.

It really surprises me how many have chimed in on this thread without ever having actually heard an OMA K3/K5 table. However if it was me I'd be taking Mike Lavigne's approach and have 2, 3 or even 4 different top tables that each use a different drive system. I wish I could own just one of his tables. 

I spoke to Jonathan (last?) when his table was still in development. He spoke of using a cutting lathe as a model and I know Mr. Krebs had considerable influence. 

How can you meaningfully compare these, and with what variables? I suspect at some point, there are ergonomic considerations. I've followed a fairly masochistic route that brought considerable performance gains by increments, but none of this is plug and play, especially at this level. Arms, phono cartridge choices, phono stages and the overall "voicing" of the system all play a role in this. I'm not sure how you eliminate such variables, let alone get to make meaningful comparisons.

It's a process as much as a destination. I think you learn a lot by listening, but chances are, those will be in systems/rooms that are not "known" to you. How to sensibly approach this? 

The OMA is fine as long as you place it on a MinusK Isolation platform. I am a big fan of Schroder tonearms, but I prefer the LT. I personally use a CB.

All of these turntables are luxury items and are in no way necessary for the best sound. Ownership is egocentric. I think it is important to note that the best performance is available at seriously lower prices. Blinded, nobody could reliable identify any of these turntables in a line up of great tables between 10 and 60 thousand  dollars. 

IMHO you might as well go for the one you think is the coolest, the one you can brag about the most. That would be the Work of Art for me. I think the OMA is butte ugly and the Esoteric is not far behind. All are trying too desperately to justify their existence by coming up with silly ways of doing simple things.  To limit yourself to direct drive is self defeating. Suspensions and record clamping are far more significant. 

 

Thanks for all the responses. I’m now realizing that I should have given a bit more info about my turntable search in my original post because I really am focusing specifically on direct drive tables.I would love to steer the conversation back to the OMA K3/K5 tables or similar designs, if possible. For many years now, I have owned the best belt drive in the world (according to Fremer and many others). It’s a fantastic table but it has come to my attention that there is more I could be getting from my front end.

My main reason for upgrading is my interest in time accuracy. Thus, direct drive. Time domain is just better with direct drive. And it’s that lifelike transient response that I am after. In terms of value, I’m really interested in the K5 because it is roughly 30% the cost of K3 yet utilizing the same tech. I consider that to be a great value. To take the value thing even further, my AC-1 speakers have outshined all the similarly priced speakers I’ve owned in the past. And the enjoyment I get from them make me forget about how much I spent, which is something that is just not true with other high end speakers I have owned. Before I became an OMA owner, Jonathan would explain to me the benefits of high efficiency speakers and low wattage tube amplification and I was quite skeptical since I was very much on the other side of that approach for decades. But I was also never satisfied with my previous setups. My experience has shown that Jonathan was 100% correct. That is why the OMA tables have really gotten my attention.

In my research, I have spent some time watching the OMA videos, especially the ones with Krebs and Jonathan discussing the K3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3z6byPM6LaE

And this interesting video where Jonathan talks about the new motor for Neumann cutting lathe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIVHCOPGdEE

I liked when I heard Krebs say that 50% of what you hear is on the record and 50% is on the table.That message resonates with me and I am convinced that belt drives just can’t do it. How is direct drive not the ultimate technology for playing back a record since all records have been cut on direct drive lathes? For me, eliminating the variable of speed variation is absolutely crucial in turntable playback.

When it comes to experience, Fremer got rid of his Caliburn and now owns a K3. He didnt buy the SAT (which I have crossed of my list since it is basically a modified SP-10 motor) or TechDas or even the Esoteric (which is magnetic and not direct drive). And since Fremer used to have the Caliburn in his system, I am quite interested in his preferences. But as I mentioned in my original post, I am very curious if anyone has real life experience with the K3/K5? Or any tables with similar tech?

 

Dear Mike, I certainly would not wish to criticize the Esoteric, sight unheard or any other way. But I do beg to differ from what you wrote above, in response to my claim that the Esoteric "magnetic drive" system is naught but a direct drive where the rotor is in effect moved away from the stator:

You wrote, "no. not a direct drive. a direct drive turntable has the motor directly connected to the platter. an idler pushes. it pushes the inside of the platter, or the outside of the platter (rim drive idler). my Saskia, and the Garrard i use to own, both pushed the inside of the platter with an idler wheel. the Esoteric T1 pushes the bottom outside of the platter magnetically. a motor turns a wheel which magnetically causes the platter to turn with a magnetized bottom ring on the platter. in fact the platter and plinth have zero physical connection to the motor assembly. there is nothing direct about it in any way, shape or form."

Yes, I agree that the Esoteric is not purely a direct drive turntable in its simplest form. And I certainly do know the various forms that an idler drive can take, save for any experience with the Esoteric. But since the Esoteric drive system is not in contact with the platter, I would never think of it as an Idler Drive type at all. The Esoteric, so far as I can tell has most in common with Transrotor TMD, which is not new, and second most in common with direct drive, where also "the platter and plinth have zero physical connection to the motor assembly". This is true of any and all direct drive turntables. However, the typical direct drive places the complete drive system (stator and rotor) right below the platter which does open the possibility for EMI to affect the audio signal. The Esoteric drive system moves the source of EMI a bit further away from the platter, probably preventing any sort of EMI from interfering with the signal. Same for the Transrotor TTs with TMD. The trade-off for that immunity might be less rigid control of the platter, or more compliance in the drive system, compared to a DD. Of that, I do not know. I do know there is no free lunch. No criticism of the Esoteric is intended; I drooled over it when I saw it in Tokyo mostly for its beautiful construction and the typical Esoteric craftsmanship.

the most significant part of a turntable is the steady powerful drive and energy of the music that the turntable projects. that is the main separator of good, better and great.

cool looking turntables are a dime a dozen. exceptionally musical and transformative sounding turntables are rare. should be purchased with ears not eyes.

at the high level all the turntables are quiet. some of those sound boring.

which one touches your soul?

 

None of the above. As a matter of value The Dohmann Helix One. The Basis Work Of Art IMHO trumps all the other turntables that have been mention as it has vacuum clamping and a great suspension. Pictures do not do it justice. It is a beautiful thing in person. How the record interfaces to the platter is way more important than the ultimate in speed stability or the quietest bearing. Records are by nature imperfect, Any irregularity in the surface affects pitch as does offset spindle holes. 

The Astellar is quite the piece and if it had vacuum clamping it would be perfect. IMHO the Esoteric is boring.  

The two features that matter to me most are an adequate isolation system and vacuum clamping.

Esoteric costs ???

@lewm

Esoteric T1---$72,500 without arm, $80,000 with the TA-9D Ikeda arm and arm board.

arm boards are approximately $3000 each, and take 90-120 days to get.

the Esoteric T1 sounds better with an OCXO 10mhz clock. the best choice being the Esoteric G1X clock which is $27,000......although there are lower cost alternatives. i do have this G1X clock. big step up.

https://www.esoteric.jp/en/product/g1x/feature

and a high quality optical 50 ohm 10mhz clock cable matters too. here is the one i use.....$2450.

https://shunyata.com/products/digital-cables/sigma-series-digital-cables/sigma-v2-aes-ebu/

so when you add up the costs of an optimized T1 with two arm boards, clock and cable, you are around $107,950 at list prices. and that plays at the highest levels of turntable performance, has a modest footprint, and can handle up to three arms.

in today’s uber turntable landscape, based on the OP’s questions and experience with the over $150k Caliburn, it represents a good value proposition.. i certainly think my Esoteric is at the tip top. i’ve now been listening to my T1 for 10 months every day. love it.

Astellar: up to 5 tonearms it says

 

Had to check, the Esoteric allows 3 tonearms!

Dust Cover????

Bergmann Galder w/ Odin Linear tracking tonearm.  Amazing equipment.  Every time I listen I am impressed at how good it sounds, and frankly what it doesn’t sound like.  Total blackness.  Any number of quality cartridges will do the trick.  I use a Sumiko Palo Santo Presentation, but I know of some better.  

Check it out.  This is a wonderful turntable and arm. You won’t be dissatisfied.  

As an added benefit, it doesn’t look like a spaceship!  

@mikelavigne after you mentioned the Esoteric T1, I subsequently read MF recent review here. Looks like my end-game target as I favor multi arms, thanks for the tip.

I wonder why you describe it as a "magnetic drive idler", since according to the Fremer review there is no conventional idler wheel, and the platter is driven by magnetic induction, such that the drive force is applied at a distance from the platter. (In other words, this is a direct drive turntable by another

@lewm

no. not a direct drive. a direct drive turntable has the motor directly connected to the platter.

an idler pushes. it pushes the inside of the platter, or the outside of the platter (rim drive idler). my Saskia, and the Garrard i use to own, both pushed the inside of the platter with an idler wheel. the Esoteric T1 pushes the bottom outside of the platter magnetically. a motor turns a wheel which magnetically causes the platter to turn with a magnetized bottom ring on the platter. in fact the platter and plinth have zero physical connection to the motor assembly. there is nothing direct about it in any way, shape or form.

the advantage of an idler is more torque since it acts on only the outside housing of the platter, instead of the center shaft with a direct drive. which has benefits musically to the drive and PRaT of the music. in the case of the Esoteric, you can actually dial the torque with a micrometer which varies the distance from the drive wheel to the platter. quite an amazing design.

i will agree with you that the Esoteric is not a belt drive. but that does not mean it's direct drive.

Amplifying on wands, I don't mean elementary considerations such as  compliance etc. for tracking. I mean basic engineering considerations which offer perfect transparency at the expense of listenability, or vice versa, and your preferences on that continuum.

Esoteric costs ???

I have heard a lot of top turntable designs. IMO, the best and by quite a large margin, is the Basis Transcendence. It is still a belt drive, but AJ (RIP) hit it out of the park with this table. Plus, his Superarm is a great arm.

Like Mike L said, the new Esoteric should also be on your short list. What do you dislike about your Caliburn?

 

I built my own air bearing TT and tonearm. I would suggest that you consider an air cushion in 3D - that is, not just air suspension, but an air bushing for radial bearing. I use an air bushing from New Way.

Also consider mating the tonearm wand to the cartridge. My d/c Koetsu and Grado Epoch need slightly different wands to sound their best.

Good luck. 

I have spent considerable time w top level Basis, Brinkmann Kuzma ( on minus K ) and Dohman ( w integral minus K )….. frankly at that level it’s going to be Wayyy more about arm / cartridge synergy and system matching…. which frankly is probably the OMA strength - as mike said…most likely at a cost.

Have fun, enjoy the journey…but full disclosure i am a Brinkmann / Triplaner / Kuzma owner

Mike, I saw the Esoteric on display at various hi-fi emporia in Tokyo, last spring.  Very beautifully made, as one might expect.  I wonder why you describe it as a "magnetic drive idler", since according to  the Fremer review there is no conventional idler wheel, and the platter is driven by magnetic induction, such that the drive force is applied at a distance from the platter. (In other words, this is a direct drive turntable by another name, differing from true conventional direct drive only in the fact that the rotating magnetic field is not directly under the platter, which I suppose does eliminate the chance for EMI to affect the signal at the cartridge.)  Doesn't Transrotor offer something like this? I think they call it "TMD" or some other 3-letter acronym.