Ultimate Turntable search...OMA K5 or ?

Dear @mattdrummer  /friends: Here some design details and a few/enough magasines reviews. MF even mentioned 2-3 details vs the K3 :

 

SME | Model 60

 

R.

Dear @mattdrummer  : As you left clear prority belongs to transiente response characteristic directly related first to the cartridge and then to the TT speed accuracy and continuos stability. I know that you want DD but this very well regarded UK manufacturer shows to you/us not only " words " about but " incredible "  thrid part measurements and I said " incredible " because the TT is BD one. Yes the SME 60:

 

" S peed stability has been a given with previous SME turntables, but the switch from DC to AC motor drive has taken its Model 60 to another level. Its ~0.005% absolute speed accuracy and mere 0.01% peak-weighted wow (fig.1) are comparable with the best of today’s direct-drive offerings, including Technics’s fabulous Grand Class SL-1200GAE. Few other belt-drive decks get this close. Minor flutter modes at ±12Hz, ±33Hz, and ±65Hz (also visible on the unweighted rumble spectra, fig.2) amount to no more than a peak-weighted 0.02%. Furthermore, the sintered bronze bearing, with its oil-damped ball, is so precisely machined and polished that both through-groove and through-bearing rumble are truly state of the art, at –75.5dB and –76.5dB (DIN-B–weighted, ref. 5cm/s), respectively. The impact of the screw-down record weight/clamp is limited to a mere ±0.1dB variance on the through-groove measurement; replay from less flat vinyl discs may benefit more meaningfully. The Series VA tonearm’s spring-loaded downforce dial is calibrated to within ~2% over a 0–3gm range (1gm = 1.02gm; 2gm = 2.05gm of actual downforce). Although the Series VA tonearm’s design is based on the Series V, the new polymer armtube brings the effective mass down closer to 10gm. While this might render the Series VA slightly less compatible with heavier, low-compliance MCs, the current trend for slightly more relaxed MC suspensions—in pursuit of improved tracking—actually makes the VA more relevant. The sidemounted oil bath is retained in case additional damping of especially excitable pickups is required. As with the Series V, the VA’s bearings are free of any perceptible play and for our purposes are essentially frictionless (<5mg in both planes). Resonances within the arm itself are resolved into just two components: a bending mode at 105Hz with a harmonic at 270Hz (structural harmonics are not necessarily integer multiples) and another, higher-Q, resonance at 450Hz. The freedom from more complex resonances, and general clutter, is quite remarkable (CSD waterfall, fig.3).—Paul Miller MEASUREMENTS Fig.2 Unweighted rumble from DC-200Hz (with clamp, blue; without clamp, black), all ref. 1kHz at 5cm/s. Fig.1 Wow and flutter re. 3150Hz tone at 5cm/s (plotted ±150Hz, 5Hz per minor division). Fig.3 Cumulative spectral decay spectrum illustrating the tonearm’s various bearing, pillar, and “tube” vibration modes 100Hz–10kHz over 40"

 

As any one can see the SME is not only a contender against way more expensive TTs but a true/real challwenge extremely hard to beat it. There are not only " words " but measurements that till the other TT manufacturers show it can puts any one in shame.

 

Matt, at the ned this is a serious alternative where you don't buy by kilogram.

 

Btw, Other that SME only TTs made in Japan ( CS Port/Esoteric) shows specs ( words . ) but SME not only shows but real time measurements from a truly experts TT manufacturer with experience for more than 50+ years building different TTs: it's not a " new kid in the block ". SME is a true warranty of true whole quality, nothing less and second to none.

 

R.

Dear @lewm : " So it’s quite likely to exceed SP10 Mk3 and SP10R specs in its performance. "

At the K3 price not only should be with better specs than the SP10MK3 but over the Pioneer Exclusive P3a that shows: 0.001% speed and 95db in signal to noise ratio.

 

Of course that no one ( and I mean it ) can discern betqeen 0.001% on speed stability against 0.02% or between 95db and 88db in signal to noise ratio for TTs but this is not the main issue but that those 2 specs speaks by it self the TT true quality level. With that specs the customer is not buying just at " random " trusting only on the manufacturer words in the site advertasing.

I think that any of those expensive TTs manufacturers must be and should be talk a little less and show up with the reality on measured quality level performance, this is not about $ but honest for the customers of each one of them. If not at the end : what are we buying?.

 

If we buy a Ferrari that car manufacturer shows and you can corroborate where are your money that paid for it. Well only an opinion.

 

R.

Dear @mikelavigne : "

the most significant part of a turntable is the steady powerful drive and energy of the music that the turntable projects. that is the main separator of good, better and great.

cool looking turntables are a dime a dozen. exceptionally musical and transformative sounding turntables are rare.. "

 

I already posted that a TT most does not have a " sound " by it self but the reality is that that can’t be fixed yet. Each TT develops different kind and levels of colorations/distortions, there is no noise-less TT.

 

You said " energy of the MUSIC that the TT projects ". Maybe a new TT characteristic that I have not a knowledge about. MUSIC " energy " exist in the LP recorded grooves and for me it’s the cartridge/tonearm combination who can projects that " energy " where the TT main target is to spin at precise speed with continuous stability. Yes suspension, TT bearing vibrations all other TT characteristicas are important too, everything is important in any room/syatem.

 

Now you own 4 different TTs and reading in this and other threads each one of them " sounds " different and that means that each one has a SOUND by it self and you have a favorite that’s the one that like you more ( in the past was the Saskia and seems that today the Esoteric. ) and this " like " is the same with all of us that could be of different " like " kind according our priorities but in all cases that " signature " in TTs is only the TT self colorations/distortions. There is no noise developed TT. In general with analog we all are accustomed to listen different kind and levels of distortions that are distortions/colorations that we like. It does not exist the truly NEUTRAL sound and when what we are listening goes out of the distortions we like or a "boring " item maybe is boring because it’s with not only different distortion levels but probably because is near to be neutral with lower distortion levels.

 

" musical y transformative " is only part of those distortion levels we like. Through analog we are accustommed to high distortion levls and our ears are way " relaxed " with those kind of colorations/distortion in reality are a poor tool to tell us the true.

Even that two of your TTs have no top speed stability your ears are not compliant about ( the other 2 TTs do not exist specs. ) as many of us including me however we speak of " top quality level performance " and we are so " flexible " to that quality levels but if we think a little about maybe that " top quality level performance " does not exist but a different kind of quality and even that all of us like the MUSIC our ears and pruiorities function in different way too.

I think that with TTs the look of the unit maybe has 50% or even higher " weigth " in our final choice. My choice ( example ) between the K3 or K5 belongs to the K5 only by its looks against the K3 .

 

That’s why today are dozens of " shine " and heavy TTs as more heavy the better and I think that Japánese vbintage TT designers almost started that trend with Micro Seiki ( TechDas. ) that introduced too the multiple arm boards and yes the the 8000 SA2 is a beauty and for those time came the TT air suspension, air bearing, air TT platter and the like.

American sound was in those times a copy of MS but with more all around metal weigth. In thoase times the AS 1000X weigth was 170kg and around 60kg. by the platter alone and the unit came as the MS with pivoted/cantilever 4 arm boards.

Those designers think that more heavy metal contribute to lower develped distortions/colorations but it’s not that way because any mass ( TT platter ) in movement develops internal vibrations/resonances and other problem is that such heavy platter mass even its high inertia moment is in true imposible to control continuous stability, please think in speed changes from 33.33 to 33.31rpm. We don’t even discern about that kind of speed unstability.

@peterayer  , you own the today version of that vintage TT AS20000 and you are way satisfied with: do you own the unit measured specs special on speed and w/f?. I think that for only 14 manufactured units at least we have to know those 2 specs: at least. Is important to know it not only in your unit but in any other TT.

With those very heavy metal weigth TTs we need to know not only ( that we already know ) the price of each metal kg. we paid that seems that’s the market strategy with those units but if gives the speed stabilituy for that critical MUSIC/notes transient response. Btw, I know almost for sure that you have not those specs and that were your ears and the seller who convince you to own that shiny vintage TT.

@whart  said: " dollar range for the TT, how do you effectively compare and evaluate? " other that " I like ".

 

R.

 

Dear @lewm  : Thwe issue is not what you posted. Manufacturers at those high prices like to " talk " showing no single spec.

 

@mattdrummer  said that transient response is the critical subject for him and I have to tell 2 things:  first is that matt is only the second gentleman  in this and  other forums I attend or attended that mentioned transient response that's is where MUSIC reproduction at home start and is not only critical but the most important characteristic in any room/system at any price levels.

Second is that those two TT specs ( w/f and speed stability ) are the most important for that TRANSIENT RESPONSE . Everything is important but always where starts the MUSIC reproduction develpment is there.

Btw, the other audiophile that posted about was me.

 

R.

Plus the original SOTA Mat and Basis Audio TT clamp and you are done with the Technics.

 

R.

Dear @mattdrummer  :  " is my interest in time accuracy. Thus, direct drive. Time domain is just better with direct drive. And it’s that lifelike transient response that I am after.  "

The main any good design characteristic is speed stability, with out that characteristic your statement never appears. Transient response is where MUSIC natural color BORN in a live event or home reproduction.

Esoteric is not really good about and at its asking price I think is a poor performer:

0.01% and w/f a really poor 0.06 % when the SP10MK3 shows: 0.001 % ( speed ) and a w/ 0.01% and those specs are critical for what you are looking for can appears.

The OMA through reviews and by its site speak of several importan TT characteristic but you can't find out any of those specs , even less information from the other DD by SAT.

TheTT you are looking for needs to have no sound by it self, it should be jus: blackness and if you read reviews of MF the TTs develops all kind of souen levels because in reality he is reviewing the tonearm/cartridge combinations.

Now, all audiophiles including reviewers own different roo/systems and more important is that even that all of us like the MUSIC reproduction this does not says each one of us MUSIC taste is exactly the same because each one of us has different MUSIC reproduction priorities.

So you need to trust in you and your fist hand experiences. Now if OMA shows you with its TT measurements that at least even the Technics MK3 specs in the K5 then you can decide for it.

I doubt OMA can shows you any  critical audio item specs. They like to talk and we can read in its site ( example ) tha its phono stage is way accurated on its RIAA and guess what: no single spec about anywhere the audio world.

Now, you can look to these SP10 MK3 of this Agoner gentleman:

Living Room | Virtual Listening Room (audiogon.com)

and you can choose the tonearm or tonearm of your preferences and a plattform as the Minus-K or the top of that line and you will have that precise transient response.

Several audiophiles do not like or do not care about specs and I could understand their way of audio life because they choose what they like.

You have the xperience need it to choose a new TT. Trusting in manufacturers could be or not a good strategy because at the end the manufacturer wants that you buy its products.

You like OMA and OMA convince you about its products but what that gentleman Jonathan told you:

" would explain to me the benefits of high efficiency speakers and low wattage tube amplification and I was quite skeptica..... "

 

it's not exactly true. His main issue is that he manufacture speakers, electronics, TTs an the like and he at the end is a seller.

 

 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.