Turntable upgrade recommendations: SME vs AMG vs Technics vs other

I am quite familiar with the SME 20/12 > SME Series V and am quite happy to vouch for it being a stellar performer.

I am as a listener quite attuned to detecting smearing and small distortions during a replay. My experiences has allowed myself on a few occasions to offer suggestions on methods to decrease the noticeable presence of the unwanted information.

Sometimes a thorough stylus clean is enough, on others a selection of Puck weights can offer an improvement and on the the odd occasion it has been suspected that a Platter Spindle Bearing is not functioning at its optimum.

A very basic treatment of a few drips of oil added to the Spindle Housing has yielded a much improved result, a subsequent servicing of the bearing housing has created a perception of a very good improvement having occurred.

I don't think a TT manufacturer would randomly select a TT to be used for testing and supply the Technical Data for their Models. I assume this will be carried out a TT, that has had a little post production attention. Measurements offered for the TT are not guaranteed to to be maintained for the usage life of the TT.

They are probably expected and designed for, to last the warranty period only.

What average TT owner would check for evidence of the deterioration of the Tech Data Info' ?    

I have no recollection of any perception of the SME 20/12 producing any unwanted smearing or distortion during a replay, so I will assume the design for the SME bearing is able to be maintained at a optimum for many many years after being new.

That is not the case for all TT's, I have purchased TT's with a questionable bearing condition, especially when assessing what has been discovered and how it would impact on the function, whilst inspecting the internals of the housing.  I also know others who have shared in this same encounter, and following a few simple procedures attained a much improved functioning part for their TT/TT's. 

@drbond 

Maybe you should consider yourself lucky that you ended up with the Model 30. The Model 60 costs in excess of  £20,000 more, and offers, as substantial improvements:

(i) a new motor and motorcontroller (with separately-housed transformer);

(ii) a new resin armwand for the SME V. 

Apart from these two (let's assume) clear improvements, the suspension system has been reworked so that the 'o' rings are now hidden (many will consider this an aesthetic improvement), and everything has been made a bit more massive.

But;

- the basic concept is unchanged: heavy metal subchassis and heavy metal top-plate suspended with 'o' rings

- the drive system is unchanged

- the main bearing is (I think) unchanged

- the platter (and clamping system) is unchanged

- downforce, antiskating, damping and general adjustability of the arm are all unchanged

The word is that the Model 60 is a considerable improvement sonically. Aesthetically, it is definitely more stylish, but (in my opinion) only if you take the all-black version (the coloured versions remind me of  much cheaper turntables). 

Back in 1996 (when it was originally introduced) the Model 30 cost £10,000. Now the Model 60 costs five times as much. 

I am not sure Mr Robertson-Aikman would have given the go-ahead to this project. For him, the Model 30 was already the best that SME could produce, and also the best that the end-user could reasonably ask for. Sobriety was the watchword. 

SME is today a Brand owned from late 2016 by Cadence Group as a Parent Company.

Cadence like Profits as all Companies do.

They also like the cost of base materials to be controlled, and metals are escalating in value, resins are more controllable.

The Model 60 with the SME Series V 'A' does seem to fit into a Marketing Model of a Parent Company.      

@drbond 

Maybe you should consider yourself lucky that you ended up with the Model 30.

Err, did he? Thought he went with the Dohmann Helix?

Dear @drbond  : You have not any trouble to match the SCHroder tonearm with almost any cartridge due that you can get 3 different weigth " headshells.

Now, I don't like the Blue Lace overall performance levels and looking the " road " you choosed my advise is to go for the Lyra Atlas Lambda and the Verissimo.

R.

I think that the Koertsu designs are already " exhausted " against today topnew cartridge designs.

R.

@dover 

Thanks for the reminder not to get wrapped up in the analog / digital debate.  They both can be excellent media, and appreciated for their differences!  (I just demonstrated this to myself by listening to the same performance of Gilels playing Beethoven's Piano Concertos on both CD and LP today, and with two different cartridges on the LP.)  

I have The Thorens 124 MK2 with SME (12’) :is great !!!

I remember a few years back Mr Swissonor came home for a listen with his rebuilt 124 equipped with his own tonearm. I was about to buy it but with my SME 3012-R. He didn’t want because he said the 12’’ would unbalance the 124 (you need a larger than normal  armboard) and wouldn’t sound as good as it should. 
Finally I kept my Raven AC 3. I have installed a second tonearm for my mono records and very happy.

My 2 cents

PS  : very important to listen to 220V and not 230V for a much better sound for Europe.  If you are in the US I don’t know . This is very important if you want to hear your 124 at the max of its immense potential.

I doubt very much that SME have decided to change the construction of the Series V arm due to escalating metals prices. The amount of metal in the arm is infinitesmal relative to the volume of metal in the turntables!

Senza , you are right : in Europe , you have to use 220v , instead of 230v. Is very important !! Thanks for your tip !

That’s why Urs Frei from Swissonor and some other famous restorers produce a special power supply for getting a lower voltage, closer from what was used in the 124 era.

Congratulations on your purchase! Sounds like you hit audio Nirvana. Enjoy!

And don't pay too much attention to people who know which cartridge sounds best to you in your own system. Many of the most sophisticated audiophiles use Koetsu, especially with the diamond cantilever option. Then there are exotic options like field coil and strain gauge systems. Take your time, enjoy the fine system you already have. 

I doubt very much that SME have decided to change the construction of the Series V arm due to escalating metals prices. The amount of metal in the arm is infinitesmal relative to the volume of metal in the turntables!

The SME V arm tube is a casting. It may well be that they are running out of stock and the minimum run size is now uneconomic.

@Dover and anyone else

What do you make of the resin armtube? If you had an SMEV would you be looking to have it upgraded with the new armtube if this were possible (it isn't at the moment but it may become possible sometime in the future - technically speaking the new armtube is an exact replacement for the old)?

Dear @terry9  : Koetsu design is as I posted an exhausted design. Nothing is changed in the last 10+ years in its motor, what change is the stones but the cartridge motor is the same.

Lyra Lambda is a new design as the Verissimo against  the " older " Koetsu design and the Verissimo comes with diamond cantilever and the Lyra is boron with diamond " plated " ( I don't know the rigth name. ).

Koetsu was in the vintage times a " myth/legend " when in reality its quality level performance never been really good till appeared the KRSP and I know because I owned at least 6 different models over time listening including the blue lace. 

I respect those " sophisticaded " audiophiles that own Koetsu but that does not means that is a true superior performer.

Koetsu stone models are very good looking but are outperformed by other newer designs.

R.

I own one of those new designs. It's just not as good - in my system, on my turntable, with my tonearm, and with my arm wands - to my ears.

Matching cartridge to system is more than just considering effective mass of the tonearm. Setting up is more than VTA. When you spend time and thought and money to get it right, as the OP is doing, you get a lot further than if you omit one of those.

I don't think that you do know what his ears hear and what his system sounds like.

Dear @terry9  : " Matching cartridge to system is more than just considering effective mass of the tonearm. Setting up is more than VTA. "

Agree and is weird you did not mention phono stage critical analog item.

" I have a similar problem with my Mayajima cartridge "

Well, I don't know if ytou refer to that " new " cartridge design or in reality to the Lambda/Verissimo.

R.

@rauliruegas 

To repeat, "I don't think that you do know what his (OP) ears hear and what his system sounds like."

Could have added, "with his kind of music."

And no, I'm not going to help you derail this discussion.

@terry9  : No I don't want to derail nothing. You posted and I gave an answer. That's all.

R.

Thanks for everyone’s contribution to this thread! Having individuals share their decades of audiophile experience definitely has helped me make more informed decisions with setting up an audio system.
I’ve thoroughly enjoyed the first 2 weeks of an upgraded turntable. I think that the two cartridges on the Dohmann (Lyra Atlas and Koetsu Urushi Black) are a good balance / complement. I can definitely appreciate different aspects of the musical presentation with each cartridge. The Lyra is more detailed, but at times can too revealing, when I can hear a surface hiss of the needle dragging across the LP during very quiet moments of the music (mostly while listening to classical, as jazz, etc has very few quiet moments) The Koetsu is not as detailed in its presentation, but possibly seems more musical. I don’t hear as much detail, and no surface hiss, but seems to be better characterized for classical music, whereas I’m enjoying the Lyra better with jazz, bluegrass, other acoustic music. Overall, I would say the Lyra Atlas puts you in the front row of a musical performance, whereas the Koetsu Urushi Black puts you in the tenth row.

It’s all a very enjoyable listening experience. It’s fun to listen to the music, and experience what it would be like to hear some of the best musicians in the world who have lived in the past 60 years perform for me. It seems like I can feel the expressions / emotions of the performer and the composer more significantly with the Dohmann turntable.

It seems like I can feel the expressions / emotions of the performer and the composer more significantly with the Dohmann turntable.

And that's what it's all about! Enjoy

Without direct, personal experience, I am super impressed with the Kronos TT.

The counterrotating “platter” under has been said to be the only true innovation in T T design in many years. Seems logical that the precision and stability of rotation is key to the function. The show rooms which use the Kronos all speak superlatively. I would love to hear one.

Don't recall if this topic has come up, but have you considered ultra-sonic record cleaning? Big benefits right away - quieter, more revealing - and big benefits delayed - low stylus wear.

My own stylus costs a lot to replace, so the US cleaning system is paying for itself twice over.

In any case, well done by you!

@terry9 

Funny that you should bring that up!  One of my audiophile friends insists that I buy a Degritter for U/S record cleaning.  I bought a VEVOR U/S record cleaner instead a few months ago, which I can tell really makes a big improvement.  I (obviously) don't mind spending the money necessary for a significantly improved result, but I don't know if the Degritter is worth the $3000 price, when the VEVOR is available for $225.  Ideally, I would compare the two devices side by side, to see if there's an audible improvement after the Degritter vs VEVOR, but I haven't done that yet. . . maybe that's a project for next month. . . 

I use a lab grade US tank, made by Elmasonic. Runs at 80KHz or 37KHz - I use 80, and a rotating spindle to run one revolution per 9 minutes. Usually once through is enough, but some garage sale specimens have required 3.

Two threads might interest you: one here on Audiogon by antinn, a high class expert in cleaning technology. The other is a long thread on DIYaudio. Turns out that 80KHz is a really good frequency for records.

The reasons you might want a lab machine are: 80 KHz, internal heater, enough consistent power, and generally meets spec. As you know, lab equipment has to meet spec or there is Hell to pay. Consumer audio, not so much.

Bit of a DIY approach, but that's my style ...

Plenty to learn from in the link about Methods to clean Vinyl LP's

I am using the Manual Method and on a Batch of Six Plus LP's can clean in approx' 10 Minutes per LP.

I did intend on using the owned US Tank for the final rinse cycle, but the impressions made has created the condition of a LP where it is felt and additional steps are not needed.

The Manual Method is not as convenient, but is very affordable and the 'Job Well Done' aspect is quite satisfying.   

Precision Aqueous Cleaning of Vinyl Records - The Vinyl Press

You might want to ad SOTA to your list. I have a Star Sapphire table with vacuum hold down and a SME 309 arm on it, a very nice combo IMHO. The SOTA tables being produced now have been seriously reworked for the better, magnetic levitation bearing, new motor and motor control units and are reliable to a fault once setup. Music flows out from the table and expands to fill my room with a wall of sound and I couldn’t be happier. And also, they don’t cost a fortune and if you need help, just call them and you more than likely will get one of the owners to answer the phone. Great customer service which is invaluable when purchasing and setting up a top tier turntable.

Thanks @pindac  . Could not remember the exact reference. VERY useful.

Vinyl has a few ritualistic disciplines, that are a Joy to behold when all are synched.

Developing the want for participating in the disciplines and acquiring the required lessons and equipment necessary to develop the skills and additional practices can be as much fun as the listening experience, even though a little more mentally challenging and less restful when taking part. 

Someone else mentioned Galibier turntables and I bought my kuzma tonesrm from galibier.  I’m here in Colorado about 45 minutes from them and the owner; thom mackris came down to my house and spent 2 whole days showing me how to set it up at no charge but the cost of the arm.  Then when I got a new turntable, a galibier, Tom came back down to help me do the arm and cartridge set up.  Anytime I have an issue with any piece of my gear, most of which I didn’t buy from galibier, my first call is to Tom and he always is willing to help - whether it’s noise out of a tube pre amp or setting up a real su and Tom always happy to help.  Never had a better experience than I had with Tom.  So im a huge fan of galibier.  And I love my turntable and kuzma arm.  With that said, of the 3 you mentioned; sme amg, and technics, there is a great dealer here in Colorado and he sells all 3- now I haven’t done a perfect comparison (different arms and carts) but I much preferred the sme and amg over the technics.  

@gasherbaum It is great to see there is a opportunity for yourself, to get out and experience different equipment without having to consider a long round trip.

In my experience there is no better way to evaluate a performance of a TT and supporting ancillaries, the actual being in the room with the equipment, is the best.

When a space to carry out the listening is carefully worked on, to enable a better presentation and listening experience, this is usually a much improved encounter over an encounter at a Big Event and can even be better than a home demonstration, as not all listening spaces in a home have a work carried out to improve the system/room coupling. 

Most importantly you was there, you have carried out an assessment and your evaluation is very relevant to the OP's query.        

Thanks Pindac.  I should say that the dealer who sells SME, AMG and Technics is Crescendo fine audio in Wheatridge Colorado and the owner there Matt is a great dealer.  Matt/Crescendo are super supportive of all the gear Crescendo sells and Matt will let you borrow almost anything (he even has shipped large Wilson speakers to someone for a test run).  He let me borrow his Ayre Amp and pre amp and take it to my house for a week to test in my system as well as an Aurender W20Se (which I bought).  similarly, Galibier, before i bought the turntable, Tom Mackris, the owner, brought the turntable down to my house and we spent an entire day comparing it to my turntable and actually swapped the arm and cart back and forth do a true comparison using my arm and my cart on both my turntable and the Galibier i was thinking of buying, before I bought it.  Too many dealers at least nowadays seem to just want you to buy stuff and if its more expensive they say it will be better (often not the case for me).  I like the dealers or in Galibier's case,  he is both a dealer of things like Kuzma and a manufacturer of his own tables, who will actually help you improve your sound and are not just trying to make the largest sale as quick as possible.  Also, if you are not in Colorado, but buy from Tom/Galibier, Tom will fly out to help you set up your turn table and I've never seen anyone better at turntable set up.  And I know Matt at Crescendo works with clients outside of Colorado, so anyway, if anyone is looking for a good dealer i would check both those out.    

@gasherbaum I have come to learn, with hopefully not sounding too critical, that there are many with a keen interest in equipment, that do not get out and create experiences for themselves.

It is very common today for an individual to use the available at fingertips searches and gain Knowledge of Equipment by observing different types of Media Presentation or through forums.

For many who use a HiFi System of as a Pass Time and a Luxury, the activity is a lone activity in general and can be quite insular. I can't help feel, the most common method used for creating a furthering of knowledge about owned or other equipment, is adding to the growth of insular equipment owners, with limited experiences of other equipment, especially being demonstrated in environments that are put in place to allow a system to perform at its best.

To take a owned device and have it used on another system, is a wonderful experience to undertake, and to bring a unfamiliar item of equipment into a owned system will have all of the same positive benefits. To achieve either of these outcomes, a dialogue is required between two individuals who share a similar interest, either of the individuals may have a much different set of experiences behind them, and shared information about impressions made can be a great way to share between each other. More importantly respect and friendship is developing and possibly even a whole new social interaction is only around the corner.

I have just described my own experiences and what possibly is a fair chunk of your own.

I am vehement toward avoiding any idea of being a lone participant, with very little interaction in undertaking experiences of equipment.

I like any other can write anything I like about an equipment not demonstrated, but cherry picking from writings from others. I wonder how an assessment would compare, if such a description was made following the outcome of a demonstration.   

For the record, my system is not in use at present, and in the past months, I have discovered devices, as a result of meeting with others and receiving demonstrations of equipment, that has left me with no other thoughts than these are needing a home trial, as the impression made in another system has been very good.    

Just sharing my thoughts here at this late thread date on the overall topic, as owner of an SME 20/2 model with the SME V arm and a Lyra Skala cartridge - I absolutely love it! And yes, I've heard other high-end tables in high-end systems. When I hear about how dead or tame these tables sound to others, I shake my head in disbelief- and that's as someone who's owned a Rega table plus a Linn LP-12 (neither known for 'deadness'), and has heard other ones for the sake of comparison.

But this is not a post about how great I think SMEs are. It's that one has to be wary of 'received audio wisdom' in general, without testing against reasonable skepticism and especially personal experience. One bit of 'received wisdom' I heard before I bought my SME years ago was that it was really a table for classical music lovers (the founder was a huge fan of opera). While classical listening is about half of my overall listening, the real revelation for me once I had my table was on the rock and jazz side of things- particularly jazz, which the table really brought to life in my experience. So- that notion about the SME turned out for me to be a bit misleading in its emphasis.

Overall, though, no one can tell someone else which high-end table is best for them. Not only do tastes differ, but the rest of the system, the listening room, perhaps even the genres of music favored really affect the subjective listening experience- often radically so. I love the rest of my system, but have heard various components of it sound lesser or even 'dead' elsewhere (in other setups), and imagine my SME setup could sound 'dead' in certain systems, and so have questions about just how reliably others who slam SMEs or their worthy competitors have made their own comparisons. It's possible that some people slamming certain table setups have not even reasonably optimized them in terms of setup or isolation or whatever, right? Plus, obviously cartridges make a huge difference, and I wonder how many people making comparisons between table lines have heard compared models using identical cartridges. So- IMO a lot of people who slam certain 'table lines simply ignore the relative degree of these factors because such individuals are so invested in their purchasing decisions plus their overall conceptualizations that they become insecure or overconfident in their outlook and respond accordingly.

SME, AMG, Technics, VPI, and so on- all make amazing high-end tables. For all but those particularly obsessed (even by audiophile standards) or who really enjoy endless equipment searches/sagas (I don't), I believe it's better to narrow down high-end choices to several or so reputable manufacturers - a half dozen at most (all of whom, as mentioned before, likely make fabulous turntables that are a lot more alike than different in their presentation within the same system); particularly ones with some track history and reliability; and choose among them, both by sound preferences, plus other features (whether one needs more or less adjustability in their turntable setup (I don't in my case). Factors leaning towards the SME in my case was concern about having to keep the Linn in tune over time; the SME is built more like a tank in that regard. Obviously there are other 'tank-like' tables out there.

Anyone who hasn't reliably heard the competing table/arm/cart setups in the same system and same room is deluding themselves to think they can reliably isolate variables in the sound differences between these tables. I mean, I've heard substantive differences from things like isolation, tube rolling, and cable swapping on the order of the differences between high-end tables- and these differences invariably exist between high-end tables in different systems. That's not to say that differences between high-end tables don't exist (for example, recently I was able to compare my table by hearing it in a system with an AMG Viella- and their were obviously sonic differences), but too many posters in this thread speak as though they've attained ultimate knowledge in a vacuum- and while sometimes dealers or professional critics have a deeper experiential base, they have their own personal and situational biases- particularly the former, in my experience.

In my case, while I wouldn't be surprised if there were setups I could afford that could substantively better what I have now, for my own ears, very, very good enough is very, very good enough when it comes to the time, money, hassle and care of further comparing turntables- though I know that to many audiophile ears, such a standard is heretical. So I will only swap out my setup if/when I go to the next level- whether it would be a better SME setup or something like a higher-end AMG or Basis setup or something like that.

Turntables are not better for any type of music. Turntables are supposed to be "dead" and let the cartridge do the work along with the phono stage. Same as the tonearm. It should be properly isolated if the table doesn't provide sufficient isolation (as the SME clearly does) by itself.

If someone says they can tell the sound of a turntable, then that turntable is not doing its job. 

My familiarity with the SME 20/12 > SME V is now quite distant and I can't quite recollect where I found it most attractive.

The owner of the above set up moved onto a Garrard 401 Idler Drive mounted into a bespoke produced compressed Bamboo Board Plinth > Origin Live Illustrious > Sumiko Pearwood.  I am very familiar with this TT and when used mounted on a Support Structure using Densified Wood Sub Plinths and Pneumatic Isolation Footers, it was in my assessment the best I have heard from a Idler Drive.

The same owner, returned to Belt Drive and purchased a Schue TT (modified to use a Origin Live Motor) and used with the above Tonearm > Cart'. They soon formed the view this was the set up that was equal if not better? than the SME set up. This set up has also been used in a Bake Off between a few other TT > Tonearm > Cart' configurations where on TT set up has cost substantially more. The assessment has been that the Schue added a different flavour to the replay, but was not a bettered TT by the others. 

Most recently I have been demonstrated the Schue with a OL Conqueror Mk IV Tonearm > Sumiko Pearwood. The owner has felt the set up was worthy of this additional investment. This as a set up has maintained the very good impression it can make and is in my assessment recommendable.

An individual has to be sat in front of the Speakers to be able to assess what is happening, reading and conjuring up ideas is fantastical and not with any accuracy, even the aesthetic can be quite different on how it appeals when seen in the flesh in place of a Photo.

Interestingly the TT's owner has a indelible memory of the impact the use of a Densified Wood has had when utilised, and is keen to have the Schue Chassis produced from this material. I am an advocate of such concepts, it would be great if a A/B comparison could be achieved, but the time constraints between setting up both Chassis will potentially be too disruptive.   

SME (suspension), AMG (mass), and Technics (direct drive).
What are the advantages and disadvantages of the different types of turntables, and of those in particular?

Aside from listening, which is most important, Paul Miller’s lab results from HiFi News & Record Review’s summary of SME’s newest Model 60 say a lot.

It comes up Aces in terms of pitch stability (“the most pitch-stable belt-driven deck we have tested”) with bearing performance from platter and tonearm that push the limits of measurement along with a new tonearm tube that is the subject of another thread of “What Does It Take To Surpass A SME V?” that PM describes as, “The freedom from more complex resonances, and general clutter, is quite remarkable”

https://www.hifinews.com/content/sme-model-60series-va-turntable-lab-report

It’s an amazing achievement.

says someone above, and I quote, "Technics, not even close!" REALLY?? NOT EVEN CLOSE?? Do you have some kind of bionic ears?

How much ya wanna bet this guy, ALL-IN, has less than $10k invested in his entire system. No one who is ’audiophile proficient’ would ever make such a glaringly superfluous statement, except maybe a stoner whose primary measure of a great system is 1) volume knob going to 11 and 2) bloated bass, in the quality (and quantity) of a Saturday night in downtown Detroit.

@jymc I guess you're a Technics owner?

And I wouldn't make any bets on the amounts any poster here has invested over the years in their systems. It's probably a case of "think of a number and then increase by an order of magnitude"!

What is it that you object to so strenuously? The flippancy or the content of the opinion expressed by arcticdeth, 17 months ago? (Addressed to jymc, not dogberry.)

dogberry

Nope, would NEVER consider a Technics in my rig.