Turntable upgrade recommendations: SME vs AMG vs Technics vs other

@drbond 

After your earlier thread on amplifiers and preamps it was great to see you have purchased the Ypsilon amps - they are excellent.

With regard to the SME 15A versus the 20/3 - the 20/3 is a decent step up in resolution, solidity, and sound staging. The 20/3 bridges the gap between the 20/2 and the 30/2. By comparison the 15A is an upgraded model 10.

from the HiFi+ review of the 15A

I have long been a fan of the SME 20/3 and, as it was to hand, I put the two up against one another to see how they differed. The four footed and pricier turntable with the mighty Model V arm delivers a more solid, assured, and three dimensional sound than its sibling. It produces more depth of image and greater resolution of reverb and harmonics, too. Essentially the character is the same, but you get more of the detail off the disc.

You have a very good system that deserves the 20/3 level of performance.

The 30/2 is up another notch but if you can buy a 20/3 new vs a 30/2 second hand I would be tempted to go with new, you never really know how tonearms have been handled, no matter how knowledgeable the owner, and bearings are easily damaged through mishandling.

Something to consider - if you put a reasonably priced good quality MC in the 20/3 you will get a better result than putting a more expensive cartridge in the cheaper deck.

By the way nobody answered your original question -

SME vs AMG vs Technics

SME has a sense of ease and grandeur - very smooth, excellent soundstaging, and quite transparent. If you are familiar with Spendor loudspeakers - the SME has similar qualities - very smooth, unforced presentation that allows you to listen into the music. Superb on classical. I have listened to the SME with a variety of cartridges - 2 of the best for me were the Soundsmith Paua and Van den Hug MC - both presenting great level of detail with musicality.

The AMG I have heard is very smooth, but I found the AMG with their own arm/cartridge underwhelming. Slow. I know someone here who replaced the AMG fairly quickly after purchasing due to lack of dynamics and energy.

The Technics - presents fairly lean and clean.

Of the 3 I would recommend the SME.

Others to check out would be the Brinkmann Balance and Kuzma M/4Point11.

The Kuzma which I have heard at length and fettled, is a very easy TT/arm to set up for folk that don't do TT set up often. The Brinkmann is a great deck - a legacy product. Some of the Brinkmann Balance owners prefer the Kuzma 4Point11 arm instead of the Brinkmann arm as a combo.

Best of luck.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear @dover ​@drbond  : In that SME review comparison exiast a very important difference that's that the 15A comes with the inferior 309 tonearm but my advise to the OP is to buy the 15 with the V tonearm.

The SME 20/3 has a much more substantial subchassis with a much lower resonant frequency and heavier platter than the 15.  And of course the SME 20/3 is a significant improvement over the older 20/2.

It is a much better turntable regardless of arm, deeper bass and more gravitas in its overall presentation.

Why not mix both?, SME TT and the Kuzma tonearm.

Contrary to earlier statements by @mijostyn I have seen the Kuzma 4Point11 fitted to SME/20 & 30 TT's. There are a couple of examples on the Kuzma website.

It is a straight bolt on with the SME adapter provided by Kuzma.

The AMG is also an integrated Turntable, tonearm, clamp design. The same as the SME, in terms of integrated design. Why SME instead of AMG? Have you heard both turntables?

I have heard both at some length, price to price the SME's are better sounding than the AMG's, more revolving, better built, and have better resale value. SME's main business is UK military supplies, they will never go broke and they will service almost any product they have made.

I doubt very much that SME have decided to change the construction of the Series V arm due to escalating metals prices. The amount of metal in the arm is infinitesmal relative to the volume of metal in the turntables!

The SME V arm tube is a casting. It may well be that they are running out of stock and the minimum run size is now uneconomic.

 

@drbond 

For that budget I would investigate

Brinkmann Balance 2 arm with Ront Tube power supply

Techdas Air Force 3 Premium

both of these would be around the $40k mark before negotiation.

For the Acoustic Signature you would have to go to the Ascona Neo @$50k retail to meet the performance of the Brinkmann/Techdas.

As an aside - if you want to explore vintage a mint Micro Seiki 8000 mk1 can be had for around US$25k, which according to some owners of both is as good as the Air Force One ( north of $100k ).  It may require a little extra effort for any parts, maintenance etc but the performance is at Airforce 1 level.

 

 

@audition__audio 

cc @drbond 

CSPort air bearing turntables you are referring to are very good.

IMHO they add complication in set up and depending on the table may have some type of additional motor or mechanism to move the arm which can add noise. 

No thats not correct.

The top linear trackers use air bearing carriages - the stylus follows the groove without any need for motors or mechanical drive

Examples are Kuzma Air, Eminent Technology ET2.5, Air Tangent, CSPort.

@drbond 

You are right. Most experiences of audio components are within the context of the system in which they are heard. Even reviewers often have a narrow window.

And of course opinions are always subject to ones own preferences.

Each of these turntables should be capable of excellent performance. 

Choice of tonearm and in particular cartridge should enable any of these turntables to deliver what you want, in other words as long as you buy the best TT you can, you should be able to then tailor the overall presentation through arm/cartridge choice.

Given the gear you have, and the fact that you enjoy different presentations of amplifiers for example, I would recommend you look at a turntable that is capable of 2 arms, even if you start with one. This will future proof your purchase.

Even if you start with one, once you have a handle of the outcome you can then tailor future cartridge purchases to your system and/or add another arm to play with different cartridges. If you purchased any of the TT's I've mentioned, with a top arm, even a modest price cartridge should give you outstanding results. Starting with a couple of cheaper cartridges would give you a feel for what you like - and are always handy for backup in case of accidents.

With regard to tangential trackers, I have owned an Eminent Technology ET2 linear tracker modified for around 30 years, in addition to many other arms such a Dynavector, FR64S, Kuzma  etc.

By eliminating tracking angle error and distortion, properly implemented tangential trackers give you the most accurate soundstage presentation, for example if I listen to a church choral recording, with the ET2 I can hear clearly into the recording environment, soundstage, instrument location, reverberation more than with any conventional pivoted arm. I use to use the ET2 with the original Martin Logan CLS electrostatics - and to this day even my current system cannot match that combination for presenting a phenomenal window into the recording venue.

Some folk argue that linear trackers have too high a mass for the cartridge - but that is not necessarily true - depending on the linear tracking design. Careful matching of cartridge and arm and decent set up are always important.

The CSPort has a linear tracking option and I believe can also run a conventional arm as well - ie 2 arms.

I currently enjoy multiple turntables in my system and run both linear and conventional arms. Arm/cartridge and cartridge/phono matching is the key and a decent phono stage.

By the way interested to know how the Ypsilons are going - how do they compare to the Lamm combo ?

 

 

 

 

 

@drbond

Yes I interpose linear/tangential.

I am not a fan of the new pivoted arms that try to simulate tangential tracking such as the Thales and Reed on the basis that they introduce new problems - that is they do not provide a rigid platform for the cartridge because of the additional bearings required to accommodate a rotating headshell and/or rotating arm base.

Thanks for the feedback on the amps. I’ve heard the Lamms but not the Ypsilon.

@drbond

Great news - forget about the analog digital debate, it will wear you down. Just enjoy your superb system. And buy more records.