Send to me a private mail and I can give you a Pointer toward a Arm that has for a few put this arm and the Sibling Arm IV on the storage shelf.
What Does It Take To Surpass A SME V?
Thinking about the possibility of searching for a new tonearm. The table is a SOTA Cosmos Eclipse. Cartridge currently in use is a Transfiguration Audio Proteus, and it also looks like I will also have an Ortofon Verismo if a diamond replacement occurs without incident.
The V is an early generation one but in good condition with no issues. Some folks never thought highly of the arm, others thought it quite capable. So it's a bit decisive.
The replacement has to be 9 to 10.5 inches. I have wondered if Origin Live is worth exploring? Perhaps a generation old Triplanar from the pre owned market?
Any thoughts on what are viable choices?
241 responses Add your response
No Secrecy I have seen posts from neonknight and the info' offered may be well suited to their outlook on things. If the contact is made, all that will need to be made know to learn more will be offered for their own evaluation and appraisal. It is not hard to supersede in performance a Glorified version of a early Tonearm Design from the Company Rega. If Rega had the collateral in the early days of their becoming a Business, there 'may' have been Patents Present that would have stop most plagiarist's in their tracks. |
Dear @neonknight : You can up-grade your " old " V with a new silver ( Audio Note UK silver wire.. ) internal rewirig that this time goes with connectors directly to your phono stage.
Other alternative and very hard to beat is that with the same recomended " treatment " look for the MAX -237 with the J removable headshell, an excellent tonearm.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Just to throw another name brand into the mix, Reed tonearms are very good. Schroeder tonearms are also superb but have a reputation for long wait periods if you order a new one. I have no basis to claim that any tonearm is "superior" to the SME V, because I don't own one and have heard it only in audio salons and at shows, which experience I judge to be a poor way to choose gear. Also, keep in mind that the cartridge (matching to the tonearm and SQ), the turntable, and the downstream system have everything to do with how we perceive the performance of a tonearm. Instead, I would look at features, like how easy is it to adjust overhang, VTA, VTF, azimuth, etc., along with quality of construction and design execution. |
Triplanar can't compete vs MAX 237 and I know that you have not the Proteus but an old one but as with the V are audiophiles that like the Tri. as like Schroeder or the Reed or the Kuzma or the OL, or this one where M.Fremer in his SAT DD XD-1 100K TT/SAT tonearm compared vs the RP 10 that comes mounted with this tonearm and Fremer mated with Lyra Atlas, Anna by Ortofon and some other top cartridges:
https://www.rega.co.uk/products/rb3000
R. |
As there is no indicator the SME V under inquiry is owned, but only being considered and is a early version. A suggestion of alternatives is no harm. The used V Model being considered, if from the mainstream offerings is most likely $3500 - 5000ish There is a lot of options to be put on a list at this purchase point, even a New Model of another Brand in this price range. As said in previous Posts, if it weren't for the Rega Design being so successful and sought after, there would most likely not be a SME IV, V, 309, along with a host of others that poached the Rega Geometry and Design. |
@rossb kudos for the nod towards musicality :) @neonknight beaten surely but at what cost, right? Btw hello fellow Washingtonian! |
Dear @rauliruegas , I have the impression that the internal wiring is Kondo and not Audio note UK. In any case this wiring is very sensitive (though matches arm perfectly) and requires extreme care when installing. This is one of the reasons I have not committed to this internal wiring change. |
@neonknight In relation to your wondering if OL are worth exploring. The Tonearm I am familiar with for this Company is the Illustrious. SME OL and Audiomods are Companies that have their TOTL Tonearms from a certain era formed from using the Rega Design and Geometry. SME have remained Loyal to the Rega Geometry and maintained a Singular Material used for the Arm Wand. OL have maintained the Rega Geometry, but evolved to using Composite Materials for the Arm Wands t to the Higher End Models, but keep a Singular Arm Wand Material reserved for the lower in cost models. Audiomods have maintained the Rega Geometry, and have joined the competition with OL and have a Composite Material used for their Series Six Arm Wand. I own a SME IV, Adiomods Series V ( Singlar Material Arm Wand) and have been in the the company of the OL Illustrious on quite a few occasions. There is little if any real difference between the SME IV and Audiomods Series Five. Each are quite similar in all areas of a Vinyl Replay. When being demonstrated the OL Illustrious, there are sonics and a presentation I am quite familiar with, and this encourages me to feel the Three Tonearms are all much of muchness. When the IV and Series V have been compared to the Tonearm I am using now. The most noticeable difference is how constrained the IV and Series Five are perceived to be influenced, there seems to be too much imparted from the design as a control, which has come to be identified with as not for the better. When the restricted freedom is observed and the loss of detail from the recording is being witnessed is associated with the constrained manner the arm seemingly functions within, these arms can quickly become less attractive to a Arm in use that does not create this impression. The Arm in use today, leaves a really difficult assessment to discover where it might have a fault that is unwanted on the replay, the detail and structure of the recording are laid out to be experienced in a manner that is extremely attractive and more of the capabilities is wanted regularly. For me, after a long marriage to the SME IV and a Shorter Affair with the Series Five, it was a very easy decision to Separate from each of these and bring into the Set Up the latest Tonearm of Choice. Even better for when the HiFi System is set back up for regular use, the latest Tonearm of Choice has a few tweaks which I have been instrumental in having some of the latest additions developed, and been Party to the Demonstrations during changes put in place. I know there is the X Factor now available for this Arm, the sum of the Work undertaken has a finished function that is quite something and totally optimised for the already, very attractive and special design. |
Dear @neonknight : If you are satisfied with the V then stay with, however if it's the first V generation maybe could be fine that be checked for an expert to confirm if it's still in today V operation condition.
R. |
Like you, I had an early SME V on a SOTA Star III, in use for over 30 years, serviced twice mainly just to clean and check. I replaced it with an AMG 9W2 which I managed to find used. It outperformed the SME in every respect except perhaps the bass where while more articulate, perhaps not quite as full. In truth, I did not notice this on the Kuzma TT which replaced my SOTA. Carts used in the last 5 years or so have been ZYX Airy3 and Dynavector XV-1s. Fast forward, I finally changed out the SOTA and went with a Kuzma Ref 2 on which I mounted the AMG arm. Quite frankly, I never missed the SME and sold it only a few weeks are getting the AMG. I eventually replaced the AMG with a Kuzma 4point11 as I wanted the arm to match the TT. I would not say that the Kuzma performaned better than the AMG. The setup for the Kuzma is easily faster and more repeatable but I think quite highly of the AMG. I sold it to a Garard 301 user and he loves the arm. |
With the present restriction to the SME Arms as a New Model, there is the situation where these designs do move to new owners without too much waiting. Staying with the SME will not remunerate funds to enable an alternate Arm to be considered, with the funds raised from the SME Sale. A Service won't do any harm, it will allow for it to be used once more in a improved condition, if it has a thorough cleaning of the areas that are needing to be mechanically free. It will also enable the assessment of the Arm to be a fairer comparison if the curiosity leads to experiencing other arms. The SME V will enable the replay of music very effectively, it will even do that with a pride of ownership, as the aspired to Tonearm is present. If moved on for a Arm that is a better performer to your evolved preferences born from the period of new experiences encountered. It will not take too many demonstrations to show where betterment is to be had. , Betterment is available, if using the accounts of others offering their subjective evaluations of other Tonearms impressions made in place of a V or IV. The Arm will be easily forgotten, it is only the Ego Born from the period of making such a purchase that will be sticky for a while. The Marketing and Collaboration with HiFi Media proved to be very good at making the SME V one to be aspired to. My IV is now viewed as a Cash Exchange for a Grandchild when Older if they do not want to keep it as a memory of GrandPops. The fact the Media in the UK took to being a 'Duck to Water' on the Subject of Refurbishing Idler Drives and the SME V or IV were the Arms selected by the Companies and Media to be the tool to rein in the Noticeable imbalance of Bass, the Arms were furthered in appeal as a result of this use. My closeness to this movement and extended communications about the Idler Drive TT, pretty much pointed to the Rega Arm, as being proven to do very similar for Bass Control to a Idler Drive by the DIY'ers, from the day. As a Commercial Venture for the Idler Refurb, the end product was being claimed by the Companies to trounce all TT competition, the snobbery of it all, and support from the media on such claims required a SME Price Tag, to further substantiate the claims and worthiness of the TT for such an Arm. This mental manipulation of the Marketing and the period of time where Media Support was on offer for the V and IV used with the Idler Drive sticks in many minds, even through to the present. I don't know of anybody who let the V or IV go, in either 9" or 12" that has pined for the return and rued the decision, in general there is decent remuneration and monies still spare, if a parity type arm is selected, a small top up in funds might be needed to purchase a New Model that has a better presentation, but if still considering a used Model from many Brands, there should be funds available to cover the Purchase. If I sold my IV, I would have approx' £1K profit if the funds were used to off set the against the purchase of the present used arm. |
@neonknight I ran a Cosmos for quite a while with the SME5. Mine was an early Cosmos (serial number 0, the production prototype which was done entirely in white). The Cosmos had an excellent platter pad at that time, designed by Warren Gehl of Audio Research (before he joined them). This has been the most effective platter pad I've seen. I have one; Warren sold them directly prior to SOTA getting the contract for the product. Some of the recordings I use for reference are ones I've made. So I know what they sound like since I was there. Back in the old days when the SME5 was first made, there were only three top arms; the SME5, the Graham unipivot and the Triplanar. I tried all of them. The Triplanar proved itself the most versatile, being able to track a wider range of cartridges due to its greater adjustability. Since then the Triplanar has been improved and there are 3 models. I've yet to hear anything beat it. Its the only arm that can do what my master tapes do without coloration, showing that the LP was mastered properly. I've never been able to find anything that could make it mistrack. I've had mine about 15 years and I hear there's a new wire that might be a bit better, but I've not had much incentive to update- it works really well. One thing this arm really taught me is its much more important that the arm be able to track the cartridge properly than ultimately what cartridge you actually have. Anyone who does not understand that will be doomed to spending more and changing out cartridges much more frequently.
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@atmasphere To have owned an arm for 15 Years and thoroughly enjoyed it is a real blessing. What is also quite interesting is that you deselected other Arms prior to your choice being made, that has proved to be a long-term relationship as the outcome. I myself at times, get a motivation for probing the next ’what if’, and on occasion a new gem is discovered. I would encourage a look into the Wire for the Arm that can be selected. If one can be discovered that is off interest, why not speak to the manufacturer about a Service for the Arm and to see if they would install a alternative wire to your choice. They may stipulate a dimension for the Wire, as a pinch point might be present in the wire route that may have a detrimental effect on the mechanical function of the arm. Suppleness is the key, and a Silicone Sheath is a superb material to achieve this. I am not aware of your Wire Preference for a Signal Path. I have not got a great deal of interest in Silver Wire, I have it as a through wire Pin Tags to RCA Phono as a Silver Litz Wand Wire and have used it as a OCC Silver Wire Cable DIN>RCA . The Cable is Superseded in use for a few years and the Tonearm is no longer used, unless to demonstrate the model to an individual with a interest in it. To be fair to the Tonearm, it is the overall performance of the Tonearm that has been the main reason for it to be removed from regular use, how much of this is attributed to Silver Wire is not entirely sure. Silver every so often has a presence that gets my attention, there is a SUT I intend on having a home demonstration from with Silver Coils, it will be a same Brand Copper/Silver A/B and then my owned Models in the Mix and a Head Amp. My gut feeling from my own experiences is that there is something more to be offered from your Tonearm, and it might be a simple affair to find a very satisfying move to a betterment. A incentive to update might be a retrospect incentive, when the impression is made from experiencing a choice for a change put in place. |
@lewm , it was not. What I posted happened, it's his style: post after post till he think already win but in this isue has no reason to post and post and post and all because his friend and because he think is " the best tonearm " outthere. He has knowledge in tube electronic but certainly is not in that way with cartridges or tonearms, at least not as he think.
Lewm you only have to re-read again his statement in that post to know he is totally wrong:
" Back in the old days when the SME5 was first made, there were only three top arms; the SME5, the Graham unipivot and the Triplanar. "
In those times as today the Graham unipivot as all unipivots was a " terrible " tonearm ( a copy of the Audiocraft unipivot. ) but in those times were all the top Japanese tonearm designs where even today the Tri can't compete with.
So, lewm: waht are you talking about?
In the other side I'm not saying a negative comment on the Tri, things are that there are better tonearms andthat's all. Facts speaks by its self.
R.
R
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Perhaps facts speak for themselves, but where are the facts in your insulting post? Also, I do not want to be dragged into defending the Triplanar. That has nothing to do with it. It is the manner in which you delivered your opinion. Don't you get that you are not the only one who can be insulted? You like to use the word "win". That is the problem; most of us are not trying to win anything. It's quite OK for you to point out whatever you think are the drawbacks of the Triplanar or any other piece of gear. I think we have a consensus that there is no such thing as "the best" tonearm or the best anything. |
I tried several arms when I got into the hobby, several decades ago, but at that time I judged the SME V to be the best choice and I still use them on a Sota Cosmos and a VPI TNT V in two of my systems. Setting up amd trying different arms with the same tables and cartridges is a lot of work and once you reach a conclusion you aren't anxious to do it all over again. I certainly agree that there are other arms out there that may be superior but I long ago stopped searching for the audio golden grail. |
This statement is false. I have not mentioned Mike in any way. But now that you brought him up, he has a friend that makes a much more expensive arm ($16,000 last I heard). It copies the Triplanar VTA tower but is otherwise different. I found it didn't play bass as well as the Triplanar and the Triplanar seemed more neutral so I still prefer it. What Mike likes is his business and I don't fault him for it. We have differing opinions but somehow remain cordial on the web and in person because neither of us find reason to level personal attacks at the other! You would do well to emulate his grace. |
Yes, actually you did. ?? I'm ascribing this to an issue with your understanding how syntax in the English language works. Just so you know, your use of the colon in your quote suggested otherwise. The quote just above seems to confirm that for the same reason. |
I have the Graham Phantom. It is the best arm I've ever had. Very adjustable. The SME 5 is a good one. It will be hard to beat, though a Phantom II or the Kuzma would be ones to try. A friend has recently gotten a Kuzma, but I haven't heard it yet. He likes his Kuzma better than the Graham, though I imagine that they would be close. |
Dear @peterayer : You don’t specified under wich analog rig scenario you made your tonearm comparisons. Ideally comparisons must be doing using same TT/cartridge/phono stage, well same audio system.
It’s normal that 3 different tonearms with the same cartridge performs in the reproduced sounds in a different way with different kind of developed distortions/COLOR and is up to each one of us priorities in MUSIC at home but here maybe there are other cartridge surrounded room/systems differences in between. Stand alone the 3012R is the one with more differences between the other two: it’s not a VTF balance design, it use steel build material instead magnesium, bearing is different two using knife/ball and not well damped as the other two. For me the 3012 is the one that develops the higher distortions and nothing wrong with that if it’s what you like but with out any kind of preference bias the 3012 R is the worst one and today not true competitive if what we want is stay truer to the recordings.
R.
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Raúl, I compared the SMEV – 12 to the SME 3012R both on the SME model 30/12 turntable over a period of about a month. I built a standalone arm pod so I could have both Tonearms on the same turntable. I could not use the vintage tonearm on the modern turntable so I switched the modern tonearm onto the arm pod and I compared both arms on the same arm pod with the same cartridge on the same turn table under the same conditions in the same system. to me the SME V tonearm is over damped and colored sounding. The vintage 3012R sounds much more natural in my system. |
I have a similar impression comparing a SME 3012R to a Kuzma 4P. The 3012R sounds livelier in a pleasing way, the 4P over-damped. Comparisons made with a Lyra Etna and two ART 7s on a Luxman PD444 with three arms and two 3012Rs, one stock and the other(better one) with silver wire and a bronze bearing. |
The 3012R has a charm to the sound. I have set up multiple cartridges on the 4Point11 and have never heard it sound over damped. It is very quick, and quite neutral. I don't use the damping troughs on the 4Point. As always with tonearms, the results can vary depending on the actual TT used and mounting. |
Dear @peterayer : my mistake in my last post: " it’s not a VTF balance design " and should say: it's not a dynamic VTF design.
Yes, I remember your thread about and if you re-read my posts down there say almost the same with the additional issue of the external arm pod that per se could change everything.
Each one of us like some kind of distortions/color and nothing wrong with that but in an unbiased way affirm that the 3012R is superior to the V12 has no sense due to several disadvantages with the vintage one but if only one disadvantage could be enough is the different tonearm bearing design in favor of the V12.
R. |
Dear @dover : I don't think no-one else can win what is my take on any audio thread is that all of us are winners with no loosers at all.
In a thread if you confirm that what you know is confirmed by other gentlemans then you win because now you are more sure your knowledge is in the rigth side but if things are that what you know in reality is wrong through other gentlemans posts you still win because you can go out of your " error/mistake " and a third possibility is that in an audio subject " suddenly " through other gentlemans posts you took in count that you leraned something new.
In all those scenarios you win and no one lost nothing.
R. |
Dear @dgarretson : Nice to " see " you again, in many threads we need you.
" livelier ", well that's exactly what SAEC owners including me think about those double knife tonearm designs.
As a fact I owned 3 SAEC's and I bougth due to the comments of Japanese audiophiles opinions I found out elsewhere including the advertasing through the USA distributor Japanese Stereo in CA ( seveal years ago ) and those opinions came in comparison between the SAEC 506/8000 vs the Micro Seiki MAX 237/282 that I owned too and those audiophiles said exactly the same as you for the 3012R and the Kuzma where for the Japanese the Kuzma was the MAX 237/282.
That's why I bougth the SAEC's when I already owned the Micro Seiki's and yes the SAEC was " livelier " and the MAX tonearms just as your opinion of the Kuzma till I learned first from where came that " livelier " and second why the MAX was really a superior tonearms. The livelier came from the knife bearing with its tiny " rattle " and in the other side that the SAEC's are not a well damped design: more or less like the 3012R. When I learned and even that the SAEC's looks just great and were build with a very high quality levels I prefers the MAX all the way down and till today. The MAX is perhaps one of the best tonearem designs and along the Lustre GT-801 the only dynamic baknce design that just does not ring like a bell with its VTF set up mechanism..
Even that great MAX/Lustre dynamic balance characteristics I ended using both through gravity forces that's the natural way for VTF. Dgarretson, as I said before each one of us like what we like, it's our privilege. Welcomed, R. |
@peterayer Your parameters to select a Tonearm has been as good as one could want to be achieved. The discovery made by yourself about there being 'when discovered' something that is repellent about the Flagship SME Tonearms is in keeping with my own findings. Your description is "over 'damped and coloured sounding". It does not need such control parameters to be in place as you have used, for an individual to discover a experience that is extremely attractive to them. A one off experience and a attraction made is a subjective evaluation, or a extended period of A/B comparison between devices, in a controlled parameter, is still a subjective evaluation. If a device is used, and it hits a home run, that is perfectly suited to ones unique taste and preference, that is enough, the choice made is after all, made by the one who is to experience the choice made, as part of their intended wish to have musical encounters. When I was learning about how a New Tonearm to myself could compare to my SME IV. I come to the description the IV was seemingly constrained and controlled. There was a overbearing perception that a freedom of interaction was missing and when aware of this, it was unattractive and become a repellent, quite a outcome for someone who had been Wed to the IV as a 'go to' Arm for many years. The Tonearm I have now in use has the capability to create the impression it is completely free from constraint, the perception is it has a tangible freedom, and is interacting as a 'tool to do a job' in a manner that is very attractive, ( the chisel certainly is not blunted ). In your own evaluations you used a Tonearm Pod and it is possible this Pod or another version of one is still in use. I have no concerns for the use of a Tonearm Pod, from my observation from a time when a Two Arm Table was an attraction, and I was looking at options to create the set up. I viewed the Standalone Pod, as not too much different from a Side Bar Cantilever Arm attachment as seen on a variety of TT Brands looking to offer a Multi-arm mounting configuration. The Cantilever can present it own mechanical deficiencies, but not enough to make a replay unattractive, the Pod has the same condition. There is a Standalone Pod Designs I have seen in use that have a Mass Structure and a Densified Wood Arm Board as a Interface for the Tonearm. When sharing a Support Base with a TT, where the base has very stable inherent properties, the methodology for this set up, is unquestionably fit for purpose and will adequately mount an Arm, not only as a trialing mount for an A/B but also as a permanent role as a Arm Support. A friend with a SP10 R was investigating a New Tone Arm, to enable the variety of arms to be used for the demonstrations the SP10 R owner has has a Standalone Tonearm Pod produced. From recollection the Arms used were a Glanz MH-12000s and MH-900s and a Reed 3P (9" Model). These three arms were home demo's on a few separate occasions through a Local HiFi distributor. My SME IV was loaned for a extended demo' period, as well as a Loaned OL Arm and there was a Linn Arm already owned. Each of the Three above loaned /owned arms were able to be fully understood for for their impact on the performance, when used with the SP10 R and a established impression was able to be formed about each. Neither of these found their place on a Shortlist as a Model to be considered. The Arm Purchased after the experiences encountered was the Glanz MH-1200s, which has made such a positive impression on a Standalone Monopod that is where it remains mounted. Even though there is a difference in how the 3012 R and Glanz arms were chosen the control criteria in place to help make the decision is with similarities, and a arm was discovered that has made a very positive impression and wanted to be lived with. I am able to enjoy the SP10R > Glanz (Standalone Pod Mounted)> Miyajima on regular occasion and have never felt at any time something is amiss, 'recording dependent' the musical experience encountered is jaw dropping good and always wanted to be revisited. I am hoping your jaw has a drop now and again as a result of the good musical experiences being encountered, and whilst standing in a queue somewhere the desire surfaces to get back for a listen, with a Tipple in moderation of ones favourite at arms length.
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