Even being on a concrete slab, suspension and a wall shelf can really improve the performance of the P8. It did for me, but I have a suspended wood floor, so I probably got the most improvement possible.
If you think you have maximized the isolation and have a large budget, you may want to see if you can get hold of the Rega Naiad, Roy's ultimate table made in limited supply I believe. The lowest possible weight with theoretically lowest possible internal force needed to turn the platter and hence lowest energy dissipated. Someone mentioned you could get one made special, but not sure if your budget will allow it. It is his "cost no object" design.
Anybody in Agon land have one of these? I never seem to see it mentioned.
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This is why I like Rega tables - extremely light platters/plinths/arms with low torque needs and noise. Great arms, build quality and durability. As long as you isolate them, they are a tremendous value.
By the way, when I put mine on a spring platform from Townshend the sound improvement was shocking. Now, it caused foot falls (so @lewm your concerns about springs are on the money even though @millercarbon will strenuously object to that comment) because of the frequency combination, so I had to put it on a wall shelf, which got rid of the problem, but you have to be sure the springs are the right tension for optimal sound improvement. The sound is dead quiet and the speed is at 33.28 and 44.98 RPM respectively and probably is even a little more accurate as I measured the revolutions with a cell phone which added a little weight to the platter.
Not sure why they don't get more positive mentions on the 'Gon.
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@drbond - I've been using a van den Hul One Special for 9+ years and I have been very happy with it. It is medium to high output for an MC - .75 uV but has an excellent, unique stylus that is very long lasting. I use a Sutherland Insight phono stage with a linear power supply that has more than enough gain and several load options. It is extremely quiet. Tubes would be warmer, but I like dynamics, detail and a clean, quiet sound.
This is not as "high end" as some analogue rigs mentioned here but is the best part of my system. I'm of the school that everything is important, but the source is the most important. arm/cart/phono stage at the center of it. At one point I had the RB880 arm on a P5 upgraded from an RB700. That was a huge improvement, probably more than any other change in the analogue part of my system. Phono stage was big also replacing the input that comes with my Plinius integrated amp. The move from the table itself from the P8 to the P8 was not as big as improvement, but I really like the design, dust cover and wiring update,
I am set for now until the stylus wears out and I'll probably get it replaced by van den Hul or they may just swap the cartridge for a brand new identical replacement with a price close to the maintenance cost - that's what I did last time.
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Typo - should say move from the P5 to the P8 was not as big an improvement.
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How many cartridges over $7500 can possibly be sold every year? And so many manufacturers, some who only make cartridges.
Lyra, Koetsu, Ortofon, van den Hul, Soundsmith, My Sonic Lab, Clear Audio, Dynavector, and even Grado are brands I've heard of that have cartridges >$7500. Are all these marketing/halo effect offerings are they actually readily available?
Also....a $70K phono stages I saw mentioned? How many of those have EVER been sold? What are these things made out of?
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@drbond - wow….a waiting list for a $70K phono stage. I wonder how many they actually make and how many people are on the waiting list. Also, with this kind of money being thrown around, I hope they are maximizing their listening room, which is as (or more) important as their components.
I heard that the winning system at an audio show had a van den Hul cartridge and phono stage that were around $20K total, as part of a $400K system that beat systems costing over a million dollars.
Perhaps these Swiss marketed components are not reviewed because they can’t possibly be seen as a good buy. Maybe the best sounding but only meant for those spending for what for them is Monopoly money.
it must be nice…..but I don’t think I would ever spend that much regardless of whether or not I could afford it as comfortably as what I spent on my system. I would figure out a better use for the $$$ ithrough a charity or relative.
I wonder if that makes me a cheapskate as @lewm says he is. Most people think my music hobby is extravagant.
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@lewm - you certainly are not a cheapskate with all those cartridges. I assume you have several turntables as well.
I like to think of myself as more "value conscious" than a cheapskate as 99% of people who are non-audiophiles would think I am crazy to have a low 5 figure total stereo investment and equal on the software (records) side.
I might have thought I was crazy if I was looking at me now when I was starting out the audio quest back when I was in college.
Everything is relative, and I guess if $70K is monopoly money to someone, that expenditure on a phono stage is reasonable with a total stereo (bad) investment of $400K or more, especially if it is a vinyl only source system like I have. For some reason, $400K for an entire system is not as shocking to me as $70K for a phono stage or $10K for a power cable.
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@drbond - a spindle weight goes against the Rega philosophy 180 degrees. Roy is against weight and it may impact the TT PSU which is designed to move a very lightweight platter. You don't need that to eliminate the reverberation you are hearing - Isolation/vibration control for sure will do that, but verify that whatever you use is effective with something as light as the P8 at only 10 pounds.
The only thing that worked for me was the Townshend seismic platform with the smallest possible pods (AA), which eliminates the worry of where to put the podiums or hockey pucks (which I use under my phono and amp) - not individual podiums. New turntable mat - maybe - I tested a few because my Rega mat kept lifting up occasionally when changing records, but I didn't hear any improvement and most still lifted up, so I just put a couple very small pieces of double sided scotch tape under the mat on top of the platter. Plus the black mat on the Rega table is a classic.
SME would definitely be a step up, especially with their top arm, but it will be 4-8 times the cost of the P8. Good news is that if you unload the P8 you will get a good % of your expenditure back. I'd be interested to hear your impression if you get the SME keeping the cartridge and phono stage the same. If you change multiple things at one time it will be hard to tell what improvement was due to each change. I've had that happen. Oh well, there are bigger problems in the world.
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@tomic601 - do you have any info on the SOTA reflex clamp and how it would attach to a non threaded spindle like the Rega P8 has? I am always looking at ways to improve the sound.
I don't think Lew @lewm is frugal with his cartridge collection :-)...
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@alexberger - very true. As I mentioned the $400k system beat ones costing over $1M, and it had only $20K with of cartridge/phono stage.
Plus the majority of ones who throw "loot" at their system I bet are not really listening and comparing and are usually trying to impress people with how much they've spent. Probably not most Agoners, but many customers of high end audio stores.
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I also have to say that my suspension sits on a wall shelf screwed into studs, so I am getting double vibration control/isolation and no foot falls.
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@lewm @drbond
The spindle is purposely not threaded so not sure how a lightweight clamp would attach or work.
Once the doc address his vibration issues, the need for the weight should go away - I doubt your vibrations are from the platter it turns as smooth silk - more likely from the plinth, which would be greatly eliminated with suspension/vibration control.
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According to Rega’s lead engineer, nothing should be put on top of the platter as a clamp or weight is not part of the design. If it were, they would include one or make available as an optional upgrade like they do with a shelf, improved belts for their lower end tables, etc.
I am sure it is incorporated into heavier table designs like SOTA, VPI, Oracle, Clear Audio, Basis, Michell and the other big boys who sell or include weights/clamps along with their tables.
As far as @drbond ‘s original question, IMHO I would go with an integrated arm/table design like SME. You know it was designed to work together, and SME’s arms supposedly are outstanding and now only available new from them when buying one of their tables. I view SME as an end game table, maybe you can work your way up to their top of the line.
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@drbond - I spoke with a Rega dealer who is also a SOTA dealer and asked him about the clamps for a P8 and they have two models, the reflex that is 8 oz and the screw down is 4 oz. He thought it would help for warped records, and he only had the 4 oz one in stock, which I guess he recommends because of the lower weight.
Since probably 97-99% of my records are not warped, I didn't go ahead and get one.
Do you find it helps for all records, or primarily warped ones? Also, as an FYI, he prefers Rega to SOTA tables.
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@jperry - my bad- I was mot aware AMG made arms.
Also, havent heard much about them. Sounds like @dover has though.
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Hey @drbond - the P8 is extremely light and the only thing that worked for me without counterweights was the Townshend Seismic platform that has pods screwed into the base. The very smallest pods are effective against the 10 pound turntable. If the pods are too inflexible, they won't do anything, and if they are too flexible they also won't do anything. The ones I use are just right - about 50% compression in the pods, and you don't have to adjust anything for position. They worked great for me.
Unfortunately, Max Townshend just passed away last week, so I am sure there will be some delays, but supposedly they have the capability to carry on. One frequent Audiogon poster I believe just started working there @millercarbon. You may want to reach out to him.
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@drbond - most important to match the phono stage to the cartridge and your system in general. Turntables should have no sound - improvements are the elimination of distortion caused by vibrations. Of course you need to make sure the arm works well with the table, that's why I like the integrated ones like Rega and SME and it's good to know you're leaning towards the SME. From what I've heard their V5 arm is about the best out there.
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@drbond - you need to make sure the phono stage has lmpedence (load) and gain settings that match what is recommended for the cartridge. Many good ones have several or even continuous settings for these.
Some phono stages are made to work with their own cartridges. I have a van den Hul cartridge and if I wanted to really splurge, I would go for their phono stage, but I don’t want to exceed what I spent on everything else for a cartridge and phono stage. From the numbers you were throwing around, it might fit your budget. I was told that combo was part of a $400K system that won best in a show against 7 figure systems.
The output from the phono stage can go to any regular line input of a preamp. Ideally, the preamp is just a switching box and volume knob without affecting the sound. Personally I like to KISS and go with an integrated amp and avoid an extra interconnect and power cord and save $$.
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@drbond - If I were you, and spending that kind of dough, I would talk to Dr. Vinyl (he is based out of Maryland, but travels all over the place to set up expensive tables and is a dealer for a lot of small TT manufacutrers) who I spoke with a couple days ago with a quick question and he told me the level of equipment he deals with ($450K TTs and $80K Phono stages). Nice guy.
Also, I would check with Mike Lavigne who is a frequent contributor on Audiogon who has multiple tables in and above your target price range. Very serious audiophile.
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@drbond - no matter how much you spend on any component, there is ALWAYS something better.
Linear tracking arms have one main advantage - there is no anti skating force required since there is no centripetal force pushing the arm away from the center of the record to counteract while the platter is spinning. I had a table a while back that had that which did not sound as good as a $500 (20+ years ago) table I bought to replace it when it broke. It was a Phase Linear 8000 which probably wasn’t set up optimally. I’ve learned a lot since then.
IMHO they add complication in set up and depending on the table may have some type of additional motor or mechanism to move the arm which can add noise. That being said, an audiophile friend got one last year and he loves it. Part of that affection though is the cool factor. Personally, I like low mass arms and simplicity in all parts of my system.
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Turntables are not better for any type of music. Turntables are supposed to be "dead" and let the cartridge do the work along with the phono stage. Same as the tonearm. It should be properly isolated if the table doesn't provide sufficient isolation (as the SME clearly does) by itself.
If someone says they can tell the sound of a turntable, then that turntable is not doing its job.
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