Turntable upgrade recommendations: SME vs AMG vs Technics vs other

@terry9  : No I don't want to derail nothing. You posted and I gave an answer. That's all.

 

R.

Dear @terry9  : " Matching cartridge to system is more than just considering effective mass of the tonearm. Setting up is more than VTA. "

 

Agree and is weird you did not mention phono stage critical analog item.

 

" I have a similar problem with my Mayajima cartridge "

Well, I don't know if ytou refer to that " new " cartridge design or in reality to the Lambda/Verissimo.

R.

Dear @terry9  : Koetsu design is as I posted an exhausted design. Nothing is changed in the last 10+ years in its motor, what change is the stones but the cartridge motor is the same.

Lyra Lambda is a new design as the Verissimo against  the " older " Koetsu design and the Verissimo comes with diamond cantilever and the Lyra is boron with diamond " plated " ( I don't know the rigth name. ).

 

Koetsu was in the vintage times a " myth/legend " when in reality its quality level performance never been really good till appeared the KRSP and I know because I owned at least 6 different models over time listening including the blue lace. 

I respect those " sophisticaded " audiophiles that own Koetsu but that does not means that is a true superior performer.

 

Koetsu stone models are very good looking but are outperformed by other newer designs.

 

R.

I think that the Koertsu designs are already " exhausted " against today topnew cartridge designs.

 

R.

 

Dear @drbond  : You have not any trouble to match the SCHroder tonearm with almost any cartridge due that you can get 3 different weigth " headshells.

 

Now, I don't like the Blue Lace overall performance levels and looking the " road " you choosed my advise is to go for the Lyra Atlas Lambda and the Verissimo.

 

R.

Dear @drbond  : Congratulations that your new anolog rig is fulfilling you with a higher listen MUSIC enjoyment, good.

"  I really enjoyed the Rega P8, the Dohmann Helix One Mk 2 renders a much more musical and realistic presentation.  "

No doubt about , the Dohmann main difference is its almost total isolation against resonances/vibrations developed normally in the arm board, platter, bearing footers, plinth and the like. Those resonances/vibrations now are isolated and I can think the cartridge tracking is not disturbed any more as in other TTs and that kind of isolation is mainly what makes the main differences for the better.

It's not the issue here but  a simple question: what could happen with a RP10 TT with the rigth isolation or even a top the Minus K?

As dover said buy the software you like and enjoy it.

Btw, " As many a commenter has remarked, digital just sounds flat by comparison. "  opinions like that only says that some one like oranges more than apples because both mediums are way and totally different. 

Again, congratulations ! ! 

 

R.

 

 

Dear @drbond  : As an alternative to SME Kuzma is very good but the SME TTs are little better.

 

Why not mix both?, SME TT and the Kuzma tonearm.

 

R.

Dear @sokogear  : ​​​@drbond  is rigth in his post:

"" but the sonic difference is very significant even on flat, non-warped records: *everything* is much clearer, cleaner, and more detailed. ""

 

A good clamp as Basis Audio one makes that resonances/vibrations developed between the cartridge stylus tip, LP surface and TT platter change its resonance frequency out of our ears frequency range or at least we can't listen any more and everything improves. Even improves the cartridge tracking task and helps with the cartridge/tonearm developed feedback distortions . A clamp is a must to have.

 

R.

Dear @drbond  :  too noisy? with all respect to your audiophile friends that " noisy " they heard through the FMA just comes from one or more links in their audio systems and that noise through FMA can't be " hidden " .

 

The FMA audio items are the best " tools " to analise how good is your or any one else audio system.

 

Analytical?, with all respect too for your friends they just don't know for sure how the live MUSIC sounds seated at near field.

 

FMA electronics can sound in any way but analytical or noisy, neither with the 123.

 

True experience knowledge levels is what need your friends, I don't care about any of them I just care about you as the OP .

 

The SOTA was fine but the Basis is even better, I own both. and both can run with the RP10 too. 

@cleeds  : You are argumentative because more than enhance our knowledge levels you want to " win ".

 

Who asked by digital/computer alternative? just argumentative.

 

In the other side I already listen the SG cartridge at least 3 times in 3 different systems and at least in two room/systems where you can only dream its very high quality performance levels.

 

Now, do you want to " win " ? I can help you: agree with you, you are rigth. Satisfied?  Useless and futile to follow about.

 

R.

Dear @cleeds : " the system is specifically designed for LP playback, whether it is to your taste or not..."

 

This is not about taste is about facts. When was discussed here in Agon that the strain gauge cartridge did not mimi the inverse RIAA eq and the same PL posted that deviation in a limited frequency RIAA range when the RIAA is from 20hz to 20khz. Well in the SS site he posted the Italian magasine review where any one seen the overall 6db deviation from the RIAA, after a few days of that discussion that link in the site just disappeared.

 

That today was in some way fixed through additional equalization that does not means was created for LPs " due tat mimic naturally the RIAA eq ". This is all about.

 

Btw, it’s not the cartridge whom needs to follow the inverse RIAA eq. but the phono stage and the SG phono stage did not. He said it does not needs the RIAA eq. proccess and that was and is false.

 

R.

Dear @cleeds  : I think you are wrong or have a misunderstood.

 

This is what PL posted in a thread here years ago:

 

""  in my Schroder Reference SG, the new SG design it was +/- 1dB from 50 Hz to 12K ...""

 

in that limited frequency range the cartridge has 2db of frequency deviation but 

it's not true that the cartridge " mimic the RIAA curve " naturally " ", this is totally false.

 

In the thread where PL posted and in the SS site in those times he published the cartridge curve frequency response against the true RIAA by an Italian magasine where any one seen that the swing of the cartridge vs the RIAA 20hz to 20khz was around 6+dbs ! ! !

 

Can you name it "mimic naturally "  ?

 

R.

Dear @earthtones  : " has been quite innovative with the Strain Gauge ..."

Not really innovative because strain gauge cartridges exist several years ago with designs by Panasonic  ans Sao Win ( between others designers. ) and those vintage designs were designed to run with RIAA recorded LPs.

 

The SS design can't mimic the necessary inverse RIAA eq because its design is " different " and that's why comes with its dedicated phono stage, you can's use it with any other phono stage. No, it's a design for other kind of LP recordings but not for the ones that comes with the RIAA curve.

 

R.

Dear @dover ​@drbond  : In that SME review comparison exiast a very important difference that's that the 15A comes with the inferior 309 tonearm but my advise to the OP is to buy the 15 with the V tonearm.

 

drbond, you still have a very good alternative through Rega with a departure design from the 8 that's the RP10 with better tonearm too.

Even that could be not the best reference when MF made the SAT DD 100K TT he compared its quality performance against what he listened through his review with the RP 10 and this could be important to you.

 

In the other side, you can always go for the FMA 123 that still is a superlative unit and less expensive than the 223.

 

R.

Dear @edgewear  : "" Comparing new and vintage cartridges in my own system over the years has confirmed the impression that no major sonic breakthroughs have been accomplished over the last 30-40 years of cartridge design. Not by Ortofon and not by others. But I’ll admit, prices did go through the roof. ""

 

I totally agree with you and is what I posted several times here and in other forums. Price gone well not gone but runned as a Ferrari Enzo in cartridges with out a true palpable benefit.

 

I never had the opportunity to listen the Xquisite cartridge but perhaps is the only cartridge through the years with a NEW design characteristic:

 

 

 

R.

Dear @drbond  : I think that you don't need to buy that 30/2 when the new 15 with the V tonearm can gives you at least 90% of a new 30/2 quality performance.

Now it's a hard call against a new 30/2 but vs a 27 year old 30/2 the call is different because it's not that SME can check up the used TT but that through all those 27 years SME made it a lot of refinements to its TTs with out notice for the customers.

Next is a review of the 15 but with the 309 tonearm that's inferior quality performer than the V class levels:

 

R,

Dear @edgewear  : Maybe you have to own it. It's unique because almost all was improved including suspension damping. Ortofon never put in the market a cartridge with the Verissimo " credentials " just as a MK2 " something ".

I had the opportunity to listen with a new  audio friend that as you owns the Anna and I owned the 95.

 

For me the " colourful " was and is a Anna design characteristic that in some ways was a departure from the other cartridges when started in the market. For me too the Verissimo has a more natural color the MUSIC color and at the same time has a natural balance over the frequency range.

Asd with the 95 the Verissimo is different performer than the Anna, better quality performer a little more near to the live MUSIC,

 

R.

Dear @drbond : " Add the weight of the cartridge to the effective weight of the tonearm to get total effective tonearm weight, in order to determine the best compliance in a cartridge? "

 

You have a misunderstood.because what we want through the know parameters: cartridge compliance and the tonearm effective mass+cartridge weigth+cartridge screws weigth is to know the resonance frequency in between: cartridge/tonearm that should be inside the " ideal " resonance frequency range of 8hz to 12hz.

 

In the other side the Ortofon Anna Diamond is an " exhausted " design that comes from around 10 years now.

The Verissimo model is the Ortofon " ultimate " design incorporating new cartridge characteristics by the very first time in any Ortofon cartridge and obviously the best of the Ortofon knowledge level and skills.

 

The cartridge is a departure from the very well regarded Anna where instead of those heavy 16grs. goes to only 9grs and with a healthy compliance of 13cu that will track every LP recorded groove. A very hard to beat cartridge quality performance by any today LOMC cartridge.

 

As the 223 you don’t need to listen it before buy it, as FM Acoustics is FM Acoustics Ortofon is Ortofon: you can’t go wrong with or with SME TT/tonearm.

 

Here a resonance frequency calculator:

https://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_resonance_evaluator.php

You can " see " that the Verissimo/SME is just at the middle of the ideal resonance frequency range: 10hz ! !

R.

Dear @drbond : " I would probably agree with you if I had the chance to listen to that system..."

 

You just don’t need it is not rocket science but just common sense, please let me explain about:

 

First the phono stage amplifying task: a healthy phono preamps that can handled any LOMC cartridge even with an output of 0.05mv or even a little lower needs around 80 dbs of gain and this gain with true low noise levels ( something only 1 or 2 units can do it if none at all. ) wwhere due to that low output in the MC cartridges the signal way before any kind of amplification is contaminated from every where ( rf, emi, wires,solder joints, etc, etc. ) so when goes inside the phono unit that signal is already " waiting " to be and suffer high electronics contamination/degradation of every kind.

What is a normal amplifier gain to handled speakers?, around 22db-26db and this gain is with a more " healthy " and " robust " signal that is not so sensitive to contamination.

For we can have 3db more gain level we need the double of power, so it’s not easy to achieve 80db gain when each 3db we need to duplicate the power: it’s a true challenge. Why do you think exist SUTs? yes because there are not many designers that can handled accurated and with aplomb that challenge.

 

In the other side: the RIAA equalization is a hard task and a challenge to do it accurately and what means the word " accurated " and what if not accurated?

 

we will see: the RIAA equalization is a curve this’s that’s not linear and the overall equalization goes around +,- 20dbs from 20hz to 20khz. This is the standard equalization that the RIAA association determined several years ago.

So during recording the equalization reduce the bass frequency range starting at around 20db and the high frequency range is incremented at around 20dbs and from there comes the RIAA curve.

Inside phono stage the recorded audio signal needs to be proccessed/must pass through an inverse RIAA equalization designed curve that been inverted permits to recover a flat signal that in theory is what we will listen through the speakers.

In that hard equalization proccess and I say " hard " because the equalization db range is of 40db, please think on this: in my old times I owned equalizers ( graphic and parametric. ) and that I remember never gone over full 12db-14db and in the phono stage " things " goes at 40dbs ! go figure. It’s a true " masacre " for that cartridge signal where everything could and can happen.

Now, the inverse RIAA equalization must be accurated to achieve that flat frequency in the phono sdtage output and that means in theory that the equalization has not any deviation over the frequency range: 20hz to 20khz. Any deviation over the RIAA curve at any discrete/main frequency affects around two octaves adyacents to it and ovbiously that affects too to the harmonics developed in between those discrete/main frequencies.

Normal phono stage RIAA deviation are in the range of: +,- 0.5db to 0.1db all over the frequency range and normally the RIAA deviation in the phono stage left channel is different to the phono stage rigth channel ! !

So we can’t have not even one channel with flat response that can honor the recorded audio signal and could be a dream to have both channels that mimic in between ! ! ! Non accurated RIAA eq. means higher colorations/distortions on what goes out of our speakers.

 

Well, till today I know only two phono units that are nearer the full exp´lained targets and only one of them can be buy for any one and yes that only one is FM Acoustics.

 

No matters wich TT you choose, no matters which cartridge you choose and no matters which tonearm you choose if your phono stage will " destroy " everything and it really matters what your analog rig does if your phono stage can honor it.

 

Certainly Ypsilon, CH, Dartzeel and I can follow name it can’t do it but the 223.

Here you can read something about:

 

R.

 

 

 

Dear @drbond  :  We already know that everything ( items. ) in the overall analog rig is critical: TT/cartridge/tonearm and for good reasons.

 

Now, you can have/own the ultimate: analog rig with the best whole capacity for the cartridge can pick-up " all " the recorded signal in those grooves adding the less every kind of distortions but the next step is the hardest and more " terrifying " for that recorded audio signal because that extremely delicate and sensitive signal must be amplified at a level that can be handled by the line stage or by the speaker amplifier and this kind of amplification is a true challenge for any phono stage that needs to amplify 10K times with no noise and no distortion ( those is imposible to achieve, nothing is perfect. ) or at least mantain at minimum to preserve the original audio signal integrity and things does not finish with the amplifiying steps but it comes additional steps in the phono stage that even degrades higher the cartridge signal than the amplifiying proccess and this is the proccess of the inverse RIAA eq that must be accurated with at minimum everykind of distortions.

 

The task of a phonolinepreamp will demands the best electronic design you can achieve to mantain at minimum the whole signal degradation that happens in the phono stage proccecess.

 

Yes, you need the Bugatti and if you think you do not then why to worry to change your RP-8 or your cartridge?

 

Don't you think?

 

R.

"" As a general rule, every active device (transistor or tube) in the signal path increases noise. ""

 

and passive device too. So, what? other than different kind of " noise "/distortion.

 

 

Dear @drbond  : In this link go to the end of the page and downland critical information about this phono stage:

https://www.fmacoustics.com/products/phono-linearizers/fm-223/

Dear @drbond  : I think you know about Allaerts LOMC cartridges. Well, those cartridges never had a review on TAS or STHP magasines and I asked MF why not a review of Allaerts cartridges and he told me that J.Allaerts refuse to gaves him one cartridge for review because he had and has a way long waiting list of customers that already made its in advanced payment for their samples.

 

Due to that fact I send to MF my sample of the MC2 Gold Finish for the review and my cartridge came back 2-3 months latter after the review.

 

In the case of FM Acoustics you don't find out a review because something quite simple: THEY DON'T NEED IT as Dartzeel, Ypsilon or CH  and the like.

Chips down there? well obviously that you don't know for now what you are talking about.

" active devices increasing noise ", as @terry9 you are wrong and both of you have to know that there are active phono preamps designs and there are PHONO PREAMPS designs and this fact makes a huge differences for the better or worst.

Other than live MUSIC we took FM Acoustics as an audio quality reference sound for our SS fully discrete active phonolinepreamp design and here exist an owner that can tell you is just dead silent.

Btw, high end FM Acoustics audio items in reality is a side line for this manufacturer. You can read here about:

 

https://everipedia.org/wiki/lang_en/FM_Acoustics_of_Switzerland

http://www.charleskeng.com/fm.htm

http://www.element-acoustics.ca/audio_visits.php?aid=17

 

Dear @terry9  : I owned MS non-air bearing and with air bearing too, both really in average league. Not a very good TT designs by today, perhaps for the old times.

 

Techdas came from there but even that could be that problems with were fixed what's not fixed ( I think ) could be the designer mind who instead to design a totally new TT he gone and goes with the past.

 

His last TT goes for around 400K and almost needs a dedicated room only for the TT.

 

Anywa, it's his privilege.

 

R.

Dear @mijostyn ​@terry9  :As air bearing high mass platter is not a " dream design ". Any body in movement develops internal vibrations/resonances as higher the mass as higher those kind of distortions.

 

Low torque DD TT as the other characteristics in the STST  " looks " fine but you can be sure that after you listen to you find out that exist some trade-offs, nothing is perfect in audio and especially with the analog alternative.

 

Why don't as MF about that " low torque " when he is in love with the high mass high torque SAT DD TT?

 

R.

Dear @drbond  :I suggested the SME 30 Anniversary TT or from SME the 15A with not a 12" tonearm but a shorter one ( here in the link you can read why not the 12". ).

 

In reality air bearing is a very old TT kind of designs that in theory and for the audiophiles could means something really as a " dream design " but it's not exactly that way. SME has nothing to envy against those air bearing TT designs.

 

Micro Seiki in the early 80's was one of the proposers and even that theirs TT were not immune to vibrations as the SME. Btw, TechDas is Micro Seiki and nothing really new but its high price.

 

At the end a TT needs to have accurated speed stability in the short time periods and obviously over the time and must be extremely good damped to avoid internal an external vibrations/resonances of every kind, those are the main targets in any TT and that's what the SME does.

 

In the other side the FM Acoustics 223 phono stage has a way higher quality design and excecution of that design that your beloved Ypsilon that are in an inferior league no matter what.

 

The Ortofon cartridge I named is really competitive with any other you can have in mind, as I said it you can't go wrong with it.

 

Here the link to know why shorter arm instead 12" ones and this information comes by a SAT designer manufacturer tonearms. 12" is marketing for very low knowledge audiophiles level:

 

R.