Tubes for Magnepan’s.

Expecting a tube pre / ss combo to emulate a tube power amp is a fools errand. It could sound very nice depending on the power amp.

Expecting a tube pre / ss combo to emulate a tube power amp is a fools errand.

i agree with the gist of this comment, though calling it a ’fools errand’ is unnecessarily perjorative

a very clean extended tube pre (think upper echelon arc, cj, vac, herron...) mated with a very pure solid state amp (hegel h20/h30, pass, ayre, accuphase) can do wonders in a system where a tube power amp could be impractical due to cost, heat, weight, reliability, tube matching etc etc to drive demanding speakers - but know that a high performing tube pre is not cheap by any means

certainly a top level high tube power amp like the upper arc models will give a greater sense of dimensionality, depth of stage, air and nuanced tactility through the freq range 

all about managing tradeoffs and what the user's priorities are

Im thinking a couple of ma1 atmasphere monoblocks are one of the few that could drive Maggie's 

key point is that well built ss amps can double power output into 4 ohms versus their basic 8 ohm load rating... tube amps cannot do this and can struggle to deliver even the same power in 4 ohms versus 8...

Doubling power is not the same as that amp sounding its best.

The reason is distortion- in solid state amps, this tends to be smaller amounts of higher ordered harmonics. Our ears use the higher orders to sense sound pressure and so tiny amounts of that distortion is perceived as harshness and brightness- and quite literally is why tubes are still around.

Steve McCormick has made amps that can easily double power into 4 ohms. But he sent a letter to Paul Speltz (known for anticables and also the ZEROs which are an autoformer) describing how in fact his amps sound better driving low impedance loads using Paul’s ZEROs (www.zeroimpedance.com). I described why above.


Of course, if you have a set of ZEROs to work with your four ohm Maggies, then you can use a tube amp pretty effectively as well. We are in the same town as Magnaplanar and so have a lot of local customers who use our amps with them. Our amps don’t have an output transformer (hence the term OTL) but the combination works quite well. In smaller systems our M-60s get used with the ZEROs.


The bottom line here is that no matter what amp you have, if it is driving a 4 ohm load directly, it will be audibly inferior to how it drives an 8 ohm load or even 16 ohms. The ZEROs are a workaround for this problem.


I know people will say that a big enough solid state amp will do better, but it does not matter the amp, you will see in the specs that its distortion is higher into 4 ohms. Distortion causes colorations (like harshness and brightness); high end audio is all about getting away from that. If you are really stuck on a 4 ohm speaker, consider a set of ZEROs no matter what amps you have.

just so you know, ralph, that link you gave in the last post does not work

The Cary pre looks interesting, and the price is certainly right. Thanks @russ69.


Conventional wisdom never is. 

^
It does if you take the closed parentheses off.

http://www.zeroimpedance.com

good to give more exposure to paul s's autoformers which are useful tools to have for dealing with severe speaker impedance mismatch issues

i have a had a set since the mid 2000's... they are very helpful for lower power tube amps that lack multiple taps with insufficient electrical leverage... of course this comes at some cost of tranparency but of course we are dealing with tradeoffs again here

It would be easier if Magnepan just incorporated copper resistive ribbon into their design. A resistor can be any material that resists flow of electricity by definition, so why not just build it in to give the speaker a higher ohm rating, and so better bass control?


Just sayin...

It would be easier if Magnepan just incorporated copper resistive ribbon into their design. A resistor can be any material that resists flow of electricity by definition, so why not just build it in to give the speaker a higher ohm rating, and so better bass control?

This isn't going to work the way you think.  It's pretty much the same as sticking a 4 ohm resistor in series with your 4 ohm speaker to try and make it 8 ohms.  Not only will you be wasting half your amp's power as heat in the resistor, you'd need one rated for a large amount of watts, typically higher then the wattage your amp is rated for into 8 ohms.

Or they could use less pure foil tape... Length x diameter x resistance is total resistance. You don’t have to use a resistor to increase resistance.

POWER = V x I. I = V / R.

Increase driver resistance and you decrease the power in the driver and thus the sound level.

You could increase the magnet strength which would require a heavier frame, thus blocking some more area and thus the sound level.

It's called engineering and Magnepan has been doing a pretty good job for about 40 years

 Length x diameter x resistance is total resistance

Georg is rolling over in his grave.  There's SO much wrong with that post that I just don't even know where to start. 

Sorry, school isn’t in session. 

I’m discussing tube amps and Magnepan’s here. Sometimes I get too close to sharing things that should not be.

Knowledge isn’t necessarily power, but knowledge and money can be.

Atmasphere knows of what he speaks. I have been using the Paul Speltz designed Zero autoformers for over a year now, with Nominal 6 ohm electrostatic hybrids (91 db/1w/m) and a 40 watt/ch PP tube amp (an Elekit TU 8340 with KT 77's). Doubling the resistance (and being able to utilize the 8 ohm output taps) was an astonishing revelation! The largest improvement I could ever hope for without changing the main components entirely.
The effect of the impedance change is a Speaker modification, not an amplifier tweak. Maggies are probably even more deserving of this amazing benefit (Nominal 4 ohm) and may even require the x3 configuration.

Atmas-Sphere, Anti-Cable and Magnepan  are awesome products... 

What a Great Hobby...

Driving my LRS with a variety of gear right now:

McCormack .5 (100 watts SS) with Rogue Perseus tube pre
Rogue Atlas Magnum 3 (100 watts, kt120 tubes) with same Perseus
Hegel H360 integrated (250 watts SS)  

The Mc/Perseus and Atlas/Perseus both do a good job and sound great - different of course - if you are staying under or around 75 - 80 dB.  But if you want that last little giddyup the Hegel does the trick.  So smooth and effortless.  By most accounts a great match for Maggies.  Paid under $3k used for the Hegel so within your budget.  Definitely worth a try if you come across one.  

But, sounds like you're not really looking for giddyup so a tube pre/SS combo should be great.  It might take a few tries to find the right combo but that's the fun part!

I will add that my Jolida 502brc tube integrated at 60 watts just can't cut it with the LRS.  Runs out of gas way early.  

Keep us posted.  I am curious about different gear for Maggies as it looks like I may be hooked.  Would like to hear the Hegel H20 with a tube pre for sure!

@pkatsuleas


Thank you. 

A wealth of information pertinent to the topic.

Investigate a rebuilt Harman Kardon Citation II.  I know of many people who used this amp to drive Maggies (and other current absorbing speakers) and were happy with the combination.   This amp sounds better than a Mac 275 or Marantz 9.

A rebuilt II can be found for under $3k, and then resold for the same price if you want to move on.

In newer amps, I would investigate amps that can use KT90-120-150 output tubes.   Rogue, Prima Luna, Icon, Line Magnetic all come to mind and should sound very good to excellent with your Maggies.

I love EL34 tube amps and always have.  From my first Marantz 8 back in 1975.  I had always enjoyed Maggies when I listened to them at dealers, but had never considered owning them because 2xEL34 amps are around 40 wpc. 

Around 5 years ago, I purchased a Primaluna amp, the HP version.  I paid around 4K for it, lightly used.  It has 4xEL34 per channel for around 80wpc.  You can roll the tubes, and I have tried others (6550) which increase it to about 120wpc, but don’t sound as good (in my opinion/taste/system) as the EL34s.

when Magnepan came out with the LRS two years ago, I thought I could try Maggies at home for almost no risk.  They are so inexpensive, I could just sell them off if I did not like them, or if I did not have enough power to make them sound good.  I did feel funny having such a low cost speaker in my $25k system, with my interconnects costing more than the Speakers.

I had several talks with the guys at Magnepan before placing the order. Bottom line was that they said the Primaluna HP was plenty to drive the LRS.  Apparently, the size of the power supply is important to be sure the amp has enough “balls” to drive the Maggies, and the Primaluna does.

So two years later, I still absolutely love the Maggies, and the Primaluna HP are more than enough to drive them.  I get them louder than I can stand, so volume and dynamics are not limited by the amp.  But I am not a bass freak. And don’t listen to bass heavy music.  Perhaps that might influence my thoughts.

While I only discussed the LRS, I have trouble believing the 1.7i are dramatically different, but don’t know for sure. Might be worth it for you to all the guys in Minnesota and ask them.  I thought they were frank and knowledgeable.  

I have thought about upgrading my LRS for the bigger of the small Maggies, but I am so happy with my Primaluna HP / LRS combo that I don’t have any incentive to change.

hope my experience was helpful to you.

To preface, I'm the guy that looks for sonic treasure at very reasonable price levels.  First pair of Maggies were SMGa, and while the sweet spot for listening was about 1 sq foot, I was amazed at how good a pair of picture frames with thin plastic film and wire could sound, even if not technically as accurate as my Thiel CS3.5 or Altec 604-8G.  I also restore tube gear, had just finished a Bogen DS265, about 65 wpc, and just for fun hooked it up to the SMGa, which shouldn't have been happy with less than 100 wpc.  The sound was remarkable, the stage, every bit as good as the mega SS amps I'd been running, from a vintage Sony TAN-8250 to Spectro Acoustics 500SR to Classe 25, along with scores of others that didn't make the cut.  Fast forward to this year.  Now have Maggie 1.6QR, and they sound great with the same assortment of SS amps as well as 50-70 wpc from tubes.  Picked up a pair of AES SE-845 monoblocks by Cary Audio.  After a bit of tweaking, they benched at 25 watts into 8 ohms at the onset of clipping.  Although volume constrained vs the big watt amps, they sound remarkable with the 1.6QR.  Edges of bass are predictably a tad softer vs SS, but the soundstage and realism is as good as I've ever heard with these 1.6.  Sitting position is about 10 ft from speakers and the amps still have headroom when musical peaks are hitting 83-85 db.  Going to run through the audio library with this setup before reconnecting the SS amps, just to see what's missing when I do.  Bottom line, try some different tube amps at various wattage levels....you may be surprised.  As far as the admonition that tube watts are different, they're not.  But the transition into clipping is much softer than with most SS amps, and the less edgy harmonic distortion of a tube amp creates the illusion of greater SPL.    

I've owned Maggie 2.5r's, 2.6r's, IIIa's and currently 20.1's . Regardless of anyone telling 40-50 watts of tube power is enough,  maybe that's all they has to drive their Maggie's.  They NEED Power and Current
 I currently drive my 20.1's with Classe CAM350 Monoblocks. My front-end is a kit tube preamp I built for my first set of Maggie's, a Bottlehead Foreplay with all the upgrades,  been using that since 2002. There are loads of people here telling you to stick with a nice powerful SS amp, and a Tube Preamp,  I would take their advice...

Maggi run much better with quality Solidstate  amps 
why ,because they take a lot of current to drive then 
tube donot have the current on demand that good solid state brings , when you have a speaker going  below 2 ohms that’s 
very demanding tube amps are voltage drive devises
solid state current driven. Ihave a Coda amp which they all have exceptional current capabilities a huge 3000 va transformer 
andover120 amp capability and 3 choices for output wpc .
quality counts.

Look for a used Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP Integrated amp. I run that with my Magnepan 1.7i's and it is truly amazing with KT-150's. Dana

The bast most transparent system I’ve ever heard was Conrad Johnson tube pre amp and tube amplifier with Maggie’s...it was like being in front center row of a jazzy night club...I have not yet found a system that equals it, closest I’d Sonus Faber Elipse and Arcam or Primare 

I just got a pair of Maggie 3.7i and I’m driving them with audio research reference 250 amps, ref 6 pre and ref 3 phono.it sounds incredible some of the best soundstage I’ve heard. Very happy

The first time I heard Maggie’s they were hooked up to Audio Research equipment, 1978. That's when I first fell in love with them.

I drive my Maggie 1.7i’s with a Primaluna Prologue Permium (45 watts using EL34 tubes) and they sound marvelous. I just don’t understand all of this talk about tubes not being able to drive Maggies. When I ordered a set of LRS speakers from Magnepan, the salesman there told me he is also driving his 1.7is with the same Primaluna that I have. As he explained, the key isn’t watts as much as it is current. With their huge transformers, the Primalunas deliver plenty of current to drive the Maggies comfortably, and with the luscious tube sound you’re seeking. I have two different solid state amps that can deliver 225 watts into 8 ohms, but I prefer the sound of the tubes. I get listening levels of 85 to 90 decibels at the 11:00 o’clock setting, so I still have plenty of headroom. You might call Magnepan and ask for their advice, but I wouldn’t hesitate to go with a good tube amp. My Harbeth HL5s are harder to drive than the Maggies. I hope this helps.

Hello, I highly do not recommend tubes on Magnepan’s unless you’re willing to go through a lot to make it sound very good. There are very few times where tubes will sound good on Magnepan’s but in my experience most of the time solid state class A amps sounded best. In regards to the few times tubes worked well on Magnepan’s, it only seemed to work well when the Maggie’s were in large rooms with a lot of space around the speakers and with fairly powerful  tube amps. 

Do it properly.

Use a SS for the woofers and a high quality tube for the Mid/Twt. When someone mentioned a Citation II above, I recalled that’s what I first used w Tympani IV. BUT w 350wpc SS woofer amp.

As a fellow recording engineer said at the time "Man, it sounds TOO good! Nobody else is gonna hear it like that."

I am driving my 1.7 Maggies with a Rogue Cronus Mag II and have no problem at all. I no longer feel the need for loud and head pounding, so I seldom turn the volume nob beyond 25%. At moderate levels, maybe 65-80 db. the combination of the 100W Rogue with the 1.7 Maggies, is incredible. 
Sometimes I switch out the Rogue with my old GFA 5500, ADCOM (200/350 W} mixed with my old Audible Illusions Modulau II pre-amp and that combination matches with the little Maggies as well, but the sound is not quite as full and open as with the Rogue.
Not sure if the 100W Rogue would be enough for the larger 3.7 Maggies, but with the 1.7/1.7i it works great.......Jim

I use to have the Magnepan 1.7’s. I used the Cary Audio SLP05 preamp with the Ultimate Upgrade and a Cary Audio CAD805 AE Monoblock amplifiers (Pure Class A 70 Watts with the 211 Output Tube). The sound was incredible. Remember, it’s not so much about the watts, it’s about the dynamics and stored energy from the capacitors that can handle the outburst of energy from whatever music you are listening too. The Cary’s were perfectly fine. I wasn’t looking for concert blow your eardrums sound. Also, not all big tube amplifiers run extremely hot. McIntosh MC2301 Monoblocks are not cheap but put out 300W of power and due to the design, runs no warmer than most solid state amplifiers today. The tubes are spaced out with ample spacing in between on the plate. Hope this helps.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiXAIz0EI48&t=50s I use these with Magnepan 0.7s with DWM bass panels. An 833A is more than powerful enough to make Magnepans too loud but the 833A has a very rich sound. You only need 1000 Volts on the plate with the grid through 600 Ohms of headphone amplifier transformer connected between the grid and the same ground as one of the terminals of the cathode heater putting the grid at zero voltage bias. The cathodes need very pure DC; 9 to 10 Volts at 10 Amps so the best way to begin is to use a couple of car batteries and about 0.4 Ohm dropping resistors. If you build a complete amplifier, a 46 SET with a Lundahl LL2756 output transformer for 5k to the plate of the 45 and 600 Ohms to drive the 833A you will have an ideal amplifier for under $2000 in retail cost parts. Let me know if you want help building such a project so you can know it will work.

The most economical approach is certainly SS amp and tube pre. SS amps typically will deliver better bass too.
You mention wanting the option to play a little bit with the tubes. I understand completely and I love my Eastern Electric Mini Max pre-amp. It's a tube rollers delight, sounds great, and offers incomparable build quality. It utilizes the easily obtainable 12AU7, of which I own over a dozen pair of various brands. Talk about flexibility to tailor the overall sound of my system!
I bought it used a number of years ago from a fellow A-goner and have loved every minute I have spent using it.

Good luck, have fun!!

The one thing that is already done is changing the speakers over to bi-amp connections, so I can indeed drive the woofers with a ss amp and the mid-hi's with a tube amp. Experimenting with adding depth to the baffles today to improve bass. I think this has been disguised as frame bracing by other moders. It is after all, and open baffle design.

Magnepans are not good enough to tell the difference, although you might get some pleasure out of it. I have a pair.  Rethink efficiency of driving speakers because tubes are generally less efficient, unless you are directly driving electrostatics, plasmas or such.  Compare similar classes, ie A to A or AB to AB.  Now that you mention crossovers. you would get much more out of an electronic crossovers and individual power amps.  That would be a step forward, whereas changing  direction gets expensive.

Tube Amps; I have Two Dynaco 60 watts tube Amps push/pull KT88 outputs tubes. what is the value of these Amps ? can anyone tell me.thank you

OP: I have been using the Doge 9 mono block with Doge 8 pre to drive my Magnepan 1,7s for the past five years in my living room system. I am pretty happy with the setup and could certainly recommend it. Doge 9 uses a pair of 211 with a pair of EL34 and four 12AT7 tubes in push-pull configuration producing 70 W in class A and 130 W class A/B. I listen to classical, vocal and some jazz and I felt that the power that Doge 9 provided is pretty sufficient to drive the 1.7s to a very satisfying level.  

Doge is a small Chinese company but they do factory direct order to US. My Doge 9s were shipped to my home in US within a week as I remember. Their tech service was sufficient and I've had email exchanges with their chief engineer and he always asked his email promptly, althrough with limited English language skills.

I drive my Magnepan MG III a with Primaluna evo 400 poweramp with KT 150 valve. Wonderful. also at high volume.

@drbarney1

Thank you for the info and offer. Not going to be building any new amps for the foreseeable future as I have some rebuilds in the works and am also building some Fostex folded horns this year. But I will put the link and your note in my project file.

As of today I am waiting for some new crossover parts for some ideas I have for my 1.7i’s, everything should be here by Wed. of this week, so it’s back to my wife’s garden for me until they get here.

@kellyp

Yes, Magnepan’s are another compromise in the speaker world. Good enough? What is "good enough"?

@Decathlon1991

Please don’t make me talk to Wendell. 😉

why ,because they take a lot of current to drive then
tube donot have the current on demand that good solid state brings , when you have a speaker going

Power (watts) is equal to voltage times current. If the amp can make the power then it also has the current. You can't have current without voltage- that's the laws of physics. Obviously the above statement is false.


If you want to use tubes and get the bass right on Maggies, first, use a tube amp that has good low frequency bandwidth. Second, use monoblocks so you can keep your cables short, and by that I mean maybe about 1/2 foot. Back the amp up to the speaker and use that short connection- which should also be fairly heavy. We have a lot of customers with Maggies because Magnaplanar is here in town and people want to put our amps on their speakers- both are known for transparency. So I've done this a lot- it works. The usual YMMV due to standing waves in rooms but that has little to do with tubes.

@atmasphere 

Thank you for the information. There are so many tube amps I have never heard of. Fortunately many posters here have been providing new ones for exploration.

 It seems the only way to start to be informed is to attend the major audio shows. There are two stereo stores here in Jax, and I am sort of between Atlanta and Miami, and while there are a number of stores available to visit within a days one way drive, they do not come close to representing the products available to the consumer.

Is there a national show that highlights valve amps?

I hope the big shows return this year so I can attend one.

Is there a national show that highlights valve amps?

No. Seems to me in the US, AXPONA and the RMAF as your best shots.

I hope the big shows return this year so I can attend one.

Be sure to take along the rest of your system.

My Berning EA 230 sounds a little better than my McIntosh 2105, even with a pair of Velodyne subs. The Mac does play a little louder, though. It is too much work to switch back to the Bernings.
I am referring to Magnepan 1.7i speakers. Frank

If you’re still open to a tube amp still, and you want to give the the current they need, there is one amp I know that’s well within your budget that would do an awesome job with them - it’s the Antique Sound Labs Hurricanes. 100w triode, 200w pentode. There are a number technicians whom have done mods on these an they are stellar sounding on the Maggie’s. 

@william53b This is all very interesting to me, as well. I have two systems. One has a pair REL T/9i and a pair  Magnepan 1.7i which has evolved to be my solid state system. I also have a system with a pair of Magico A3s. I move the RELs around when I play them. This is evolving to be my tube system. The Maggie system is driven by Bryston equipment: 17B3 preamp, BDA-3 DAC and a pair of 28B3 monoblocks. The 28B3s are beasts with a lot of headroom for dynamics and sound great. But it seems that folks are having success driving Maggies with high power tubes. I haven’t gone back to inspect all the prior postings. But I suspect that 300B and EL34s won’t cut it. KT88 tubes might. But the safer bet is KT120 or 150s. I would be very interested in learning what your experience with tubes on Maggies might be or the tube preamp. As for a tube preamp, if you are unsure you can get a B-stock Schiit Freya+ and see how that goes. If it’s not good then sell it. It will move. If it does work then you can either stay with it and save some $ or sell and get a Backert, Rogue or AR preamp. However, I too am wondering how much tube flavor is transmitted by a tube preamp across solid state power amps. I am thinking that the best chance of the tube preamp affecting the power amps like that would be with the Benchmark AHB2s since they are very transparent amps. Let us know what happens.