Tube virgin looking for tube amp under $3k
I almost bought a pair of VACs like those a couple years ago, but ended up splashing out for a pair of new 200iQ. At that listing price they should be a solid deal. 160 Watts/ch of tube power (to be fair that's probably pushing the KT88 pretty hard but it should at least get close), some of the sweet VAC voicing/magic, VAC support, $3K - that’s hard to beat. Long ago I had a pair of their smaller Auricle 80 sibling, and the 160s are supposed to be a lot better than that. |
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Your list looks very familiar. I searched for months reading reviews and watching videos. New to the tube amp arena, also. Not an Audiophile but trying to broaden my horizons. Having very efficient speakers, Klipsch Heresy IV- 99db, I knew a huge amount of power was not necessary. I liked what I read about Rogue, Luxman , Decware and Raven. What sold me on Raven Audio was what I perceived as Quality in an American made product. So I contacted Raven Audio and have been blown away by there customer Service. How many times do you reach out to a business for information and are met with a phone maze and in some instances never talking to a real person in a timely manner. Bryant Wilson talked to me for 25 minutes when I called between Christmas and New Years. Oh, did I mention that they were closed for inventory but he still answered the phone. James Connell and I have spoken twice, right before I ordered and recently answering some questions this first month of break-in. On their Community site a member had an issue with a popping sound on his Nighthawk Mark III and three Raven Audio associates reached out and helped him to solve the problem in short order. They are very accessible. As for Sound my Nighthawk Mark III, it has been EVERYTHING I hoped for. I can't give a technical evaluation since I don't have the knowledge. More depth, less raspy vocals, layering and greater soundstage-yes. The Nighthawk arrives with NOS pre-amp tubes, 6.. Coming from a Marantz PM7000n integrated amp this has been an eye opening journey. I have been drawn in for many hours of pleasurable listening and for Me that is what it's about anyway! I realize Raven Audio is at the top of your $3000 budget, for me also. I stretched mine and purchased the Nighthawk Mark III. I think the quality of this amp is well worth the investment. Ten to Fifteen year amp, less than $300 per year is a bargain. I'm not in any way affiliated with Raven Audio but I can see myself having a relationship with this company for many, many years to come. |
+1 on the PrimaLuna DiaLogue Premier HP, which is just the amp. Runs beautifully with my Focal Diablo Utopia III's, for a tube move, like I am, it is no-hassle. auto biasing, lights to show if there is a failing tube, 70W per channel in Pentode mode, switchable to triode mode. It is a really nice unit that I believe retails for $3800. |
The best tube amp under $3k I’ve owned is the VAC Avatar SE. Let’s you switch triode and ultra linear. Beautifully made and I think it had a remote. One of a few pieces I regretted selling. You might try a Leben CS300 series. It’s lower on power though, and the CS600 series would do better but they are in the $4k range. I use a Woo Audio WA5 which is a 300b amp, and powers efficient speakers and inefficient headphones with ease. You can find them in the mid $3k range on sites like Head-Fi, and it was favorably reviewed in Stereophile, as was the Leben 600. all prices above reflect used gear, and all above are integrated amps. |
In my office setup, I have Omega Compact Alnico monitors, which I was driving with a Cary CAD300SEI that I purchased 3 or so years ago, until I decided to move it to my main setup a couple years ago. This is a SET (Single Ended Triode) integrated amp with 300B output tubes. This was a wonderful combination, and I recommend you investigate a SET amp for your Omegas. The 15 Watts is plenty of power for the Omegas, especially since they have a very benign impedance response. The midrange is wonderful resulting in absolutely mesmerizing vocals, and contrary to popular wisdom I've never felt bass was at all lacking. Robert Hartley of Stereophile had a very favorable review of the CAD300SEI back in 1995 (https://www.stereophile.com/integratedamps/398/index.html), and Cary made several improvements over the years. While it might not be in time for your decision, I'll also be listing mine in the next month or so as I've decided to go a different direction for my main speakers (92 dB sensitivity, but a difficult load with dips to 2.53 Ohms). I had all the upgrades Cary offers as well as having them put in a pre-out RCA connector for each channel in case I wanted to add subs, and also put in NOS tubes for the driver and output tubes though the 300B power tubes are the originals. |
I have 5-6 tube amps my designed by me: https://post.craigslist.org/manage/7268929130 https://post.craigslist.org/manage/7262214672 Your speakers are suitable for my amps with power from 8-30 W. |
+8 for Primaluna and i agree with the reasons previously described to consider it. Here’s a used Dialogue HP Integrated for $3,600 https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649628037-primaluna-dialogue-premium-hp-integrated/ I bought mine direct from their US distributor Upscale audio after going there (So. Cal.) from my home in Alabama to audition it with speakers similar to my 90 dB sensitivity Goldenear speakers. With your super efficient speakers, you will not come near straining the amp (I rarely get above 9:00 volume with my less efficient speakers) and may never have to replace the tubes. I talked with the Upscale salesman who found a B-stock had come in recently from the manufacturer. It had a small blemish in the automotive quality paint job on the back of the amp that nobody will ever see and obviously has no effect on its sound quality. I was able to buy it for close to the price of the used one shown above. |
Here you go. Great Hybrid Tube and is only 7 months old. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa6ehi-pathos-acoustics-classic-one-mkiii-tube |
I know a person who is selling a couple of tube amps.... * Sophia Electric 90-01 300B amp monos but that will need a pre. and you will need the right speakers for these. (8wpc) * Triode TRV35 (older model) EL34 tubes, Can be a straight amp or pipe it thru a pre. (35wpc)...i think he rolled it to a KT77 * Rogue Sphinx v? maybe 2 hybrid (100wpc) I have heard them....they have a nice warm sound. Rogue gives you more bang for the buck. if interested reach out to me and i can connect the two of you. |
If you've got a $3k budget, why not get the Bob Latino ST-120? Fully assembled for only $300 more than the ST-70. $1700 And if you're really willing to drop $3000, that will get you the M125 mono block pair at 120 watts each! And don't forget that the kits not only save you some money, the act of building the amps is satisfying in a way that can never be matched by any straight up purchase. I built my first tube radio kit when I was 12 years old. I built any number of Dyna and Hafler kits back in the day. You can do this! |
I scanned the responses and would like to ask, not suggest, about the Conrad Johnson CAV 45 S2. This would be used of course to keep under the $3K price point. I have a Heaven 11 Billie amp (tube pre, Class D ICE) that is possibly my first real hifi amp) I've been curious about the CJ as it has quite good reviews. |
If possible it’s always best to audition for yourself. Short of that, I can speak from experience about the Rogue Cronus Magnum. I own version II after owning Luxman, Yamaha and Rogue Hybrids. First Why wouldn’t you want to own an amp with US backed manufacturing with unbelievable and always available support? Further there’s a strong US dealer network for further support. Try dialing China. Then there’s the tube rolling ability to match the amp with your speakers and components. The CM has an uncanny ability to match well with many speakers. I own Sonus Faber Sonetto V’s btw and couldn’t be happier. Do you need 100 watts? When did anyone ever complain of too much power? Dial it down if you must, however one of the best features of the CM is it’s headroom. And when are any of us ever satisfied not to tweak (hint future speaker upgrades). With a lot of choices, there are dozens of reasons to choose the Rogue CM. Lots of professional reviewers also agree. Good luck! |
I have been on the hunt for an Integrated Amplifier. After reading, dreaming, saving money I finally got to Demo some equipment. I have enjoyed some good audio equipment purchased in the 80’s but it was showing too much wear recently. Before I bought that equipment 45 yrs ago I was listening to my JBL Lancers with a Stromberg Carlson Integrated. It was the best sounding gear I had heard and even better sounding that what I ended up with. The old Stromberg burned down. :( Don’t ask my why I did not consider a Tube Amp or Integrated at that time, I was young. I compared directly a couple weeks ago a Prima Luna EVO100 vs Hegel H390. I first heard the EVO and could not find anything wrong or out of place with the sound. I was amazed at the sound! Too me, as close to perfect as I could want. Then the Hegel, Very Nice sound, but not as open, clear, or defined as the EVO100. I was shocked considering the H390 is twice the price and with my ears, could not beat EVO-100. (Also compared with a Shiit Freya and Vidar) You probably can find a Prima Luna integrated on Audiogon or perhaps another brand. I highly Recommend you hear a PrimaLuna. I am running 89db Passive Tower 8" 3-way Speakers 75W RMS continuous capable. They never sounded better and I have not dared to go over 1/2 volume because it shakes the place with aplomb lows. The police might be called on me too! |
If you 'think' you need a tube amp...you should get it. Life is short. Although there are excellent SS in your budget, tube amps do sound different. Fo for it. Glad I did and wish I did sooner. For the money, as mentioned, it's hard to beat Quick Silver and Primaluna. Also, there are easy to build kits out there as well. The Don Sachs Kootenay is based on a kit. That amp sounds amazing. |
@larshepping, I sympathize with you. I just went down the same rabbit hole with my system. I have Spatial M3 triode masters apx 95 db efficiency as well (16ohm). I was considering Don Sachs new Kootenay integrated tube amp but he is backlogged for possibly years at this point. I ended up ordering his preamp instead. He actually went online and made some suggestions for good tube amps to try for my remaining $1000 budget. I ended up getting a VTA Bob Latino ST-120 tube amp. I think a similar new one assembled by Tubes4hifi was going to cost about $1900. Don suggested this over Prima Luna that I was considering. The manual biasing is not a big deal and the KT88 tubes seem to provide all the power i need for the Spatials. My room size is 15 x 16 x 8h. I don't have the Sachs preamp in the system yet so i am using my old Adcom GFP 555 preamp and i must say that it sounds very good. Dead quiet, very good detail throughout from lows to highs. I am shocked at how good this sounds for the money. I am really looking forward to how the system sounds when the new preamp arrives. I was worried about power since it was suggested that the Spatials might play best with min 60 watts/channel. This may not be a concern for your speakers. You may want to contact Don Sachs and talk to him about a Kootenay. Happy hunting! |
$3,000 is not all that much for an amp. You should definitely listen VERY CAREFULLY before you invest. Do objective comparisons between tube and solid state amps. You don't have to listen to every amp on the market, but consider listening to what's available to you. If you're going for tubes, don't forget to factor in the expense of the care and feeding of tube amps. I'm not trying to throw water on your vision, just trying to ground it in reality and to help you up come up with the best options at your price point. |
If you’re starting down the tube path for the first time I recommend the Primaluna products already mentioned. They are autobiasing and pretty bullet proof. Each power tube will trip a protection circuit instead of blowing a resister like some tube amps if/when the tube goes bad. Less fuss for a first time tuber. For under 3k you might consider a Primaluna dialogue premium integrated. Plus they take any number of power tubes if you want to experiment. The hp is a higher wattage version but with 95 dB speakers it’s probably overkill. They are popular amps and you will see the integrated for sale quite often used. You’ll probably be able to unload quickly if you find tubes aren’t for you. Best of luck. |
I have to say my head is really spinning. If this site allowed stickies on forums, this should be at the top for all the newbs like me. This is a really comprehensive list of manufacturers and products. @bpoletti If I posted about the best amp in general up to $3k, this list would be pages and pages and pages long and I can barely process this much. |
Why do you thin k you WANT a tube amp? Why not choose an amp that meets your musical needs and tastes? And what makes you think tube amps are better than solid state? It's ALL in the design. Good solid state amps in the price range you're talking about are quite good. And there are tube amps in that price range that are three levels below average. So why not just pick the best amp in your price range? |
OP if you could swing the Cary V12R and the preamp.. You would be blown away.. It has ALL the upgrades too. It is one cool amp.. I own that amp also.. You can run 4, 8, or 12 valves. You can run 6v6, 6L6, KT66, KT77, KT88, KT90, El34, and 6550s. 12BH7, 12AZ7, 12AX7, a lot of wonderful options with those valves. I can swap valves and bias in 15 min, only because it takes that long to warm up. 3 minutes for the actual work.. It can vary in wattage from 6-8 watts to 100 per channel. Single ended or A/B UL. It is the best amp I’ve ever owned for ease of repair, and sound. It is just wonderful. The real kicker.. the cost and the LOOKS.. they are just beautiful on the outside.. You can flip the Single ended to UL, by volume down and flip the 6 switches. You don’t have to shut down. The inside is always a friggin mess. Just lazy as all get out, the way it’s laid out.. BUT I fixed mine, somewhat.. I hate to mess with certain things.. The way the internal wire makes it sound.. I like pure silver solid core heavy point to point in a couple of places.. THAT amp, no silver other than solder an a couple bridges I built and tested.. Common rail ground look nice.. BUT Noise. That mess inside pays some dividends as far as noise reduction.. It does like a high gain low noise preamp though.. I use a Mac C20 for perfection and a C2500 for convenience. Regards |
Almost forgot: Here is a link to a single ended (?) solid state integrated amplifier. https://avahifi.com/collections/power-amplifiers/products/set-120-control-amplifier If you click on the review link @ the very bottom of the page you will read that the reviewer mated it to a pair of ZU speakers and compared the sound to that of DH/SET. Found it interesting. DeKay |
With the room size and speakers I would go for DH/SET. I use old Bottlehead 2A3 DH/SET mono block amps with wide range single driver speakers and previously used an Audion 300B DH/SET. The output tubes I use (Visseaux, Ken-Rad dual flat plates and RCA's) now cost more than I paid for my amps and preamp. I'm not familiar with the new Bottlehead offerings, or anything else recent for that matter. Of the amps you list the RM10 stands out for it's unusual but really great sound. Think it's been almost 20 years since I listened to Decware (one of their first 83/El84 amps). What amps have you used with the Omega's (just curious). DeKay |
Some thoughts on two I've personally owned. Rogue Cronus Magnum II (not the most current III). My experience, others may have had very different experiences. Pros: Located in America, nice people, you can call them on the phone. Very heavy and powerful amp, reasonable price, good sound. Cons: Attention to detail is poor. Mine came with the center screw, that secures the top cover, cross-threaded (I had to shear it to get it off). On the CM this is a big deal because to change from 8 ohm to 4 ohm speaker taps you need to remove the top cover. My unit came brand new and drop shipped directly from the factory, no one else had touched it. Quality. Generally a noisier amp over all. Doesn't present a silent, black background. The input selector switch failed while the amp was sitting unused and must now be replaced by the factory. It may or may not be related to that specific switch but when it was working there was bleed-over from a not selected input to the selected input. I also noticed crackling sounds when moving the volume knob. Very faint but noticeable. Can't speak to the III, but on the II, the headphone amp is quite poor. Other. The amp is very large (big footprint), heavy and runs quite hot so you need a large flat open surface to sit it on. PrimaLuna DiaLogue Premium Preamp and DiaLogue Premium HP amp. Pros: Excellent sound quality. Wonderful mid range. Dead silent, deep black background. Controls work perfectly and are a pleasure to use. Built like a tank, excellent attention to detail and build quality. Much more attention paid to the aesthetics, overall quality, fit and finish. Still quite heavy but not as large a footprint as the Rogue. Cons: Above your stated cost target. Not the be all, end all for detail and speed. Beautiful for the human voice, acoustic instruments, music recorded in a real space (nuances, openness, etc.) Really large scale music starts to push against its limitations. Runs hot (all tubes do). My room is about the same as yours and it can get uncomfortable in the summer time with extended listening. Cost, even at used prices you might find it hard to get the separates for $3k (combined they were about $7k new). Final thought. I strongly suggest the PrimaLuna. Very high quality. Very nice sound. Perfect amp for someone new to tubes. It works perfectly, you can roll in any (appropriate) tubes you like. I have had two tubes go out on me. Both were easy to diagnose, order replacements, plug in and keep going like nothing even happened. I suggest you watch the used market. You can stretch your budget a bit and go with separates or choose an integrated and stay within your budget. Hope my experience is useful info for you. |
@larshelling, what you say is correct with respect to a 100 wpc amp. A class A 100 WPC tube amp will put out a lot of heat, so much so that it may challenge your HVAC system. The right range of WPC is kind of important with tube amps or any class A amp. More than enough is just a bunch of wasted power ending up as heat, too little and the music suffers. I can tell you that my M-60 amps drive my 92.5 dB efficient speakers without breaking a sweat in a 2000 cu. ft. room and go as loud as anyone is ever going to want. My guess is that for most people in most rooms with most music, a good 30 WPC amp would be plenty for 95 dB efficient speakers. |
(((—Quicksilver Mid mono (need pre amp)
)))1 There is a distinct advantage to having 3 dedicated power supplies independent recovery which Separate Pre amp Mono blocks provide especially compared to an integrated amp no mater how cute si the paint job .. There is also a distinct advantage to having great transformers have tested many and these are some of the the finest, inter-stage transformers slow turn on for long term reliability for listening performance. Quicksilver is the easy choice in the long run. JohnnyRQuicksilver dealer over 25 years. |
Will you be listening to vinyl? If so, you'll want a phono stage built in, else you have to spring more for that unless you already have one. I have a Rogue Cronus Magnum III and I like it a lot. It drives Heresy IVs in a small, complex space and I feel like it gets the most out what the room limits can accommodate. For the price, it has a fine phono stage, it's good looking and it is made in Pennsylvania. I listened to the LM EL34 (I have a 508ia which is a dream machine) which sounded great but again I wanted the phono stage and opted to buy American. The little Leben is beautiful and very sweet sounding but no remote (which seems silly but it really is handy) and no phono. Never listened to any Cary. |
High efficiency is part of the equation. You will also want to think about your speaker's impedance curve. Some high efficiency speakers with wild impedance swings can still be a problem for many tube amps. Also, your music preference, listening volumes, and room size all play a part in your thinking. Some will tell you that SET designs, especially 300b base designs, render music with an unequalled beauty. At ~3K, you are almost at the point of thinking about something like a Coincident Frankenstein used. Is that or a similar amp going to do it for you? If you listen to acoustic music with modest dynamics at low volumes in a small room, an amp like that could work for you. If you listen to Wagner operas and Mahler symphonies in a 3600 cubic foot room at realistic volumes then such an amp is certainly not appropriate. Personally, I'd stay away from low budget amps. Most tube amps can't really deliver the goods without high quality transformers, and those don't come cheap. If you go OTL, like an Atma-Sphere S-30, watch out for that impedance curve. You should be able to pick up a used one easily for under 3K. The M-60's, even used, are going to be out of your price range. |
I'd also suggest Primaluna. You can probably find a very good price on a used integrated. For a first-time tube user, Primaluna is a great option. It's easy to use (automatic tube biasing), sounds good, is built very well, and can take several different kinds of power tubes if you want to experiment down the line. Good luck! Scott |
The Octave integrated I heard was really good. If I was looking for a tube integrated that's what I would probably buy. If you change your speakers in the future to something less efficient the Octave will be up to the task. Ellington Hifi sometimes has lightly used ones for very good prices. Not really a classic tubey sound which if you want may not be the ticket for you. |
Audiogon has 2 Cary integrateds under $3k. Not only great sound, they are beautiful to look at. For $2,500. And $2,700. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa85jc-cary-audio-cad-280sa-v12r-tube https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa858f-cary-audio-sli-80-sig-tube |
