Thinking about going electrostatic
Got that itch for speakers again I have a pair of Joseph audio pulsar and a pair of talon khorus. I like both but now thinking about martin logan my budget is 3 to maybe 4500 I would look for a used pair can't afford new not to concern about bass I have a talon roc sub. Speakers would be powered with a rotel 1090 and prima luna dialogue pre amp. Have never herd of that type of speaker. Would like to here your thoughts
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I've had Martin Logan electrostatic speakers for 20 years. They're fantastic speakers with an airy sound unlike dynamic speakers. I think the models with powered woofers sound the fullest. My system includes Summit X for the front, ReQuest for surround, and Stage as a center. The immersive sound for music and movies is just amazing. However, now I'm planning on selling to try a high efficiency dynamic system. |
I started as a fan with Acoustat and had planar for decades. I have always loved Martin Logan. Great sounding speakers. Despite their faults they can be great fun (lack of coherence across the audio spectrum and a bit artificial space). ML has done a good job of making up for missing bass as in Quads. You will likely really enjoy them. |
Bill, I have run ML Vista's for over 10 years now. At one point I had 3 Vista's across the front (Left/Right/Center) and Scenerio's for rear in a surround sound setup. Powered by Classe or Parasound amps. You indicated that you have never heard them before, so I highly recommend that you audition a set of electrostatics before purchasing. It always seems that people either love them or hate them. (Personnally, I love them.) So, in general, for electrostatics... The Good: Treble and Midrange are hard to beat. Fast response time, clear and precise. They have a level of transparency that few other types of speakers can match. If setup right in the room, soundstage depth and imaging are hard to beat. And not only left to right, but being a diapole speaker, I have managed to even get a sense of height to the imaging. Very easy to get lost in the music. Great for either nearfield or distance listening. And depending on the type of music you listen to, they can be great fun. The Bad: You have to setup placement properly. Distance and toe in are important, but not difficult to achieve. As a dipole speaker, you also have to make sure you have the wall behind the speaker treated with some (and I stress SOME) absorbation or diffusion wall treatments. As mentioned, there is a bit of a timing/coherence between the panels and cone woofer, but I was able to get over that easily. Lastly, as with all planar speaker, there are limits with handling high dynamic changes. The membrane can only move but so much air. The Ugly: They want power and CURRENT. Impediance can drop to below 1 ohm in some models, as you go up in frequency. So you need an amp that can handle it. I think the Rotel 1090 would be able to handle it, but you may find you need a bit more grunt. Most tube amps are going to struggle with it, especially at higher volumes. And finally, as with most planar speakers, there is a small sweet spot for listening. Some will call it beaming, and when you get off axis the treble and midrange drop away very quickly. ML eases some of that by using a curved panel, but it doesn't eliminate it all together. Your bio doesn't list where you are located. I'm in southwestern Virginia. If you are anywhere close, I maybe able to arrange a demo. If not, check the martinloganowners.com web site and see if someone else is close and willing. Hope this helps. - Jeff
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Another longtime ML stat user here. I have the Impressions (11a) and I listen to them for literally hours on end, no fatigue or anything like that. I'm driving them with a Classe amplifier which has served me well. Having said that, you should definitely take some time with a pair to make sure it's the sound you are looking for. They do not move air in the same manner as dynamic transducers. |
I agree with @kennymacc....you’re the only one who can make that decision, but you’ll likely need to try them in your space to see. They can be pretty sensitive about placement, room, and the rest of the signal chain. All part of the fun! Any concerns about the Rotel being up to the task of driving electrostats without being a weak link? I know they have gobs of power, but the MLs will be brutally revealing. |
You could probably negotiate a lower price on these: Martin Logan Classic ESL 9 Speakers For Sale - US Audio Mart The killer might be the shipping? For the price they can be a great intro in the ESL sound, which I now prefer over conventional speakers (except $$ unobtanium) Decent, mid-level panels have superior mid/high/vocal performance that only premium upscale conventional speakers can deliver-IMO, of course. I've been using the model this replaced with good results. The bass unit is passive but give acceptable performance-with a sub which you have, you're golden. Do you have Magnepan on your list also? Magnepan 1.7i With MYE Stands For Sale - US Audio Mart Optimum placement calls for pushing them out in the room to appreciate what all the fuss is about with these types of speakers. That, and rear wall treatment/clearance from side wall.
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excerpt below from Stereophile review of your Joseph Audio Pulsars "Joseph Audio doesn't specify its speakers' sensitivities, but I assume that, like many small, high-performance speakers, the Pulsar is relatively insensitive. If, as stated, its impedance doesn't drop below 6 ohms, it should present an easy load to drive. The 100Wpc Music Reference RM-200 Mk.II had no trouble whatsoever doing so; the combination produced among the most enjoyable, most musically involving listening experiences I've had in the dozen years I've been in this room. I could live happily ever after with the Joseph Audio Pulsars and the Music Reference RM-200 Mk.II—but that's not to say I couldn't live more happily ever after with the big stuff!" ................................................... I think you will be wasting your time unless you try 'big stuff', and I don't see any description or photos of your listening space, so I hope it is large enough for 3 or 4 way speakers. Joseph Audio's success is related in part to the use of Richard Modafferi's Infinite Slope Crossover which he seems to have re-named. Like a broken record, (if your space is large enough) I will again recommend the totally unique JSE Infinite Slope Model II's, you have never experienced 4 way speakers with such crossover precision and the 2nd patent, bass shift use of the 10" and 12" drivers. good photos and info here (sold)
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Plenty of good snowmobile and ATV dealers up near Watertown! |
Bill, There is a ML dealer in Rochester if you are willing to make the 2 hr drive. (Digitial Audio Video Enviroments https://www.comeseedave.com/) I don't know anything about them other than they are a licensed ML dealer. And don't dismiss the ML users group as a resource for a possible audition. They are a good group in this hobby. I got my first listen from a nearby user that responded from a post I made there. https://www.martinloganowners.com/ and whatever happens... enjoy where the journey takes you.
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I used panels and electrostatics (Quads and Acoustats) for a number of years. I found that the most critical aspect of the merits of these speakers was the proper set up in a room large enuf. For example, they sound best at least 5ft from the wall behind them. Any closer and you start to lose the clarity that they are known for. The back wave can be a killer! I set up my Quads, out of necessity, in a room less than 5ft and they were easily bested by some quality dynamic speakers. 5 1/2 ft out and they were aurally superior to all but visually not acceptable. Good luck. |
If you want to hedge your bet, try the Eminent Technology LFT-8b or c. It's a hybrid design, giving you the crispness and clarity in the mids and highs, while also providing heft and presence in the lows with a traditional subwoofer. As a bonus, they don't need anywhere near the power that planar-only speakers do. Unfortunately for me, I have to sell mine (ad here: https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisbd12d-eminent-technology-lft-viiib-planars). I'm just down the road from you in Rochester. |
+1 Jeffbij I had ML13 and upgraded to ML15 driven by a Classé CA2200, really nice combo at least for me (tried Pass Labs, Luxman, Parasound, Krell). They do need a lot of juice! Starting on the ML9, the woofer is much better integrated with the panels. I don’t need a subwoofer with the 15 nor did I with the 13. The type of amplifier will actually change the woofer response as confirmed by ML. One perk: Customer service is top notch. |
Very early on I was also interested in ML. They work wonderfully for singer-songwriter type music, indie, etc. However, they are very bland with electronica/synth pop, which I enjoy. So anything with frequent sharp attacks may not sound so good on MLs. So ML is highly dependent on type of music you enjoy. |
Yep. Best to drive and go listen whenever you can. Worth the extra time and drives. While I own smaller MLs in one system, and Magnepan 3.6/Rs for a short time due to room size limitations. They all can sound quite different. Some members have commented on the "room" considerations, it matters - a lot. My larger 3.6Rs did NOT do well at all in shallow room I had them in years back. The smaller Magnepans sounded much better there instead. Needed a bigger room for larger Maggies, MLs. Eventually trying and demoing speakers at your space is the key to know a lot more. Local dealer has big/smaller SoundLabs old and new, Eminent Technology 8s, 16s, used Martin Logan CLX to compare to, each offer their own type of sound for sure. Whenever I need my electrostatic fix, it’s fun to go in and listen to the large SoundLabs, and the ET speakers too. Heard both many times there. In a smaller room, the ETs are nice. In a large room, with proper amplification, the SoundLabs are my favorites. Was lucky to listen to all of them with my larger QS Mono 120 tube amps too, very nice! |
Here is a link to the flashlight method that works well for setting the toe-in. https://www.martinloganowners.com/threads/jim-powers-toe-in-technique.125/ Also, you need to experiment when setting the front to back lean. It can change the soundstage significantly depending on the room and seating position.
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For the life of me I haven't figured out the urge to move so far away from where you were/are on speakers. It's like saying you're tired of a sedan and want to try a truck, in my mind; such a huge difference in sound. Not that one is better or worse. I started in 1995 with Martin Logan SL3s and still have them but after sixteen years I finally realized there was more to be offered as a 'whole package' by other types of speakers. I looked for a long time before moving to used/demo Dynaudio Sapphires in 2011 which I really loved for five years. Along the way I heard the original Joseph Audio Pearls and had I $30,000 to spare I'd have owned a pair immediately. I consider the Pulsars a stunning achievement in a stand mounted speaker and the Perspectives superb as well. Then I heard Raidho and realized they were in a whole new league. I bought a small pair of Scansonic MB2.5s for our mountain home but then after listening to the original D1s that Jeff Rowland let me borrow for a few months I knew I had to change. Thanks to Tyler at Next Level in the the Chicago burbs for allowing me to buy a pair off used Raidho D2s (and to take my mint Sapphires, Scansonics, and Dynaudio Excite X12s in trade). The D2s did every single thing better that the wonderful Sapphires (excepting sheer volume levels) and are my keepers. Buying a pair of Odyssey Audio Kismet monoblocks a few years ago really made them sing even more wonderfully. I still have my SL3s and they can't even try to be close. Although MLs and other electrostatics can be wonderful sounding it seems like the change is just for the sake of change. Good luck and I hope the money isn't spent with regrets later. My 'boxed' Raidhos give me better detail, air, and body than my MLs ever could. But if one has money to burn...have at it and have fun. |
I have a pair of Martin Logan Requests that I bought new in 98. I have them powered by a pair of McIntosh 352 amps in a vertical passive bi-amp. I’ve been painting the interior of the house (no small project) and replaced all the flooring. Yesterday I moved the system back into the living room after about a month. not sure what I’ll do if they quit working, perhaps I’ll quit working first. rich
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@bill1957 You might look into an ESL called Popori. Some of their speakers are very easy to drive and they've had some good press from recent audio shows. |
